The Islam thread (TIT)

[Tranzi]

This new topic was designed to divert the offtopic discussions from the place where they didn't belong to another where you can discuss, talk as such without disturbing the original topic content of the old thread.

Since the new topic of discussion seems to be focused on a particular subject, it has been suggested and confirmed to start a new dedicated discussion towards this intention.

This topic was titled "Ethnology of the Euro-Islamic movement" to meet the ideas that were evolving out of the old thread but is now modified since 1st Sep '11: 'The Islam thread (to end all Islam threads)' as the bloomin thing keeps creeping into topics, possibly to provoke or incite its discussions inappropriately.
It seems the title will stay, and the topics in the forum change from now on.

This thread can contain anything considered or best termed as Islamic degrading, it will be used for only this purpose.
Feel free to disuss in general but not over the top, or in digression.

Any post which is considered personally offensive or inappropriately placed should be reported to a moderator as directed in the Forum Rules & Faq (announcement.php)

[Alchemist]

Just look around your house, you use lots of stuff that have been invented in Western society. Or Japan. Or Southern Korea. Or some other country that has adopted the "nothing is perfect, any idea can be contested"-formula. This allows people to be free to think what they want, allowing creativity to grow freely. Yet despite the evidence around you that such a way of thinking can be beneficial, you keep holding on to some ideology that says it's perfect and nothing should be changed

You're mixing two different things, we Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is perfect, now what does that have to do with inventing stuff or advancing in science, economics..etc?

No where in the Qur'an or Sunnah does it say that advancing technologically is forbidden.

its rules have plunged quite a few countries and regions into despair. In fact, here in the NL, pretty much every street where the Islam is the main religion is a poor and often problematic one.

That's because most immigrants will naturally be poor. Also Islam didn't plunge countries into despair, Most "Islamic" countries are in despair because Muslims left the teachings of Allah and Prophet. Look at Malaysia for example, an advanced Islamic country, Iran, Pakistan.. Did you forget about the Golden Age?

And here are some Non-Muslim Western thinkers quotes, about Islam in this subject.

“To seek knowledge is a duty of every Muslim man and woman. ‘Seek knowledge even though it be in china’. The savants are the heirs of the Prophets. These profound words of the great reformer are an indisputable contradiction to those who seek and exert themselves in putting the responsibility of the intellectual degradation of Muslims upon the spirit of the Qur’an. Let them read and meditate upon this great Book and they will read that the Prophet incessantly called the attention and the meditation of his people to the splendid marvels, to the mysterious phenomenon of creation. The incredulous, sceptical and unbelieving may convince themselves that the importance of this Book and its doctrine was not to throw back, eventually, the intellectual and moral faculties of a whole people. On the contrary, those who have followed its counsels have been the creators of a civilisation which is astounding unto this day”.
(Dr. A. Bertherand, Contribution des Arabes au Progress de Sciences Medicales, Paris 1883, p.6).

“It is to Mussulman science, to Mussulmsn art and to Mussulman literature that Europe has been in a great measure indebted for its extrication from the darkness of the Middle Ages.”
(Marquis of Dufferin and Ava, Speeches Delivered in India, London, 1890, p. 24)

“It may be boldly asserted that no people in the world give the impression of being so religious-minded as do Moslems. All of life is saturated with the consciousness of God.”
(Charles R. Watson, what is this Moslem world? London, 193, pp. 38-39)
“Many Westerners, accustomed by their history books to believe that Muslims were barbarous infidels, find it difficult to comprehend how profoundly our intellectual life has been influenced by Muslim scholars in the field of science, medicine, mathematics, geography and philosophy. Crusaders who invaded the Holy Land to fight Muslims returned to Europe with new ideas of love, poetry, chivalry, warfare and government. Our concept of what a university should be was deeply modified by Muslim scholars, who perfected the writing of history and who brought to Europe much Greek learning.”
(James A. Michener, “Islam – The Misunderstood Religion”, in the Reader’s Digest (American Edition, for May1955)

Yet you and other Muslims believe in your religion, as if it is perfect. You reject the idea of trying to improve it. Why?

Because it is the word of God.

[Alex E]

You're mixing two different things, we Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is perfect, now what does that have to do with inventing stuff or advancing in science, economics..etc?

No where in the Qur'an or Sunnah does it say that advancing technologically is forbidden.

That I did not say. I said that an indoctrinated way of life as the Islam offers, leaves little room for improvement and creativity... I think those 2 things are mixed up.

That's because most immigrants will naturally be poor.

To start with maybe, but if you look at Dutch farmers in the US: They started out with crap but are often doing great now. Hardly ever true in the case of Muslim immigrants in the NL And poor is one thing, but massively misbehaving..?

Also Islam didn't plunge countries into despair, Most "Islamic" countries are in despair because Muslims left the teachings of Allah and Prophet. Look at Malaysia for example, an advanced Islamic country, Iran, Pakistan.. Did you forget about the Golden Age?

Yeah we call the time we profited from aggressively colonized countries our Golden Age too... I've started seriously reading the Koran myself, and so far I've seen that the most screwed up of those countries followed the Koran to the letter. Can't say I'm getting enthusiastic about it. (Same with the Bible btw, shitty books...)

Because it is the word of God.

There is no God. If I had told you that from when you were a baby you would've believed that too, just as you now think there is one. Arguments should be based on facts, not fiction.

[Darren]

There is no God. If I had told you that from when you were a baby you would've believed that too, just as you now think there is one. Arguments should be based on facts, not fiction.

It's an assumption you're making there in bold, he may have believed there was a God by drawing conclusions from observations about life, how intricate and complex it is. Certainly doesn't say it's proof of any form but then there is not proof to confirm God does not exist. You're doing exactly the same thing by drawing conclusions without evidence.

[Blue_Dagger]

Because it is the word of God.

Hahahahahahahahaha! Is it 'the word of God' that makes Muslims believe men are superior to women?

[Alchemist]

That I did not say. I said that an indoctrinated way of life as the Islam offers, leaves little room for improvement and creativity... I think those 2 things are mixed up.

But it does not, as I have explained.

To start with maybe, but if you look at Dutch farmers in the US: They started out with crap but are often doing great now. Hardly ever true in the case of Muslim immigrants in the NL And poor is one thing, but massively misbehaving..?

Aside from the fact that you're generalizing, what kind of misbehaving do you mean?

Yeah we call the time we profited from aggressively colonized countries our Golden Age too...

That's not the case with The Islamic Golden Age.

I've started seriously reading the Koran myself, and so far I've seen that the most screwed up of those countries followed the Koran to the letter. Can't say I'm getting enthusiastic about it. (Same with the Bible btw, shitty books...)

I'd say it's the exact opposite.. also if you continue with that disrespectful tone (saying the Qur'an and the Bible are shitty books), I will not continue discussing with you. Let's keep it civil.

There is no God. If I had told you that from when you were a baby you would've believed that too, just as you now think there is one.

There is a God. If I had told you that from when you were a baby you would've believed that too, just as you now don't think there is one. Let's not go there, you're basically trying to turn it in to a God doesn't exist debate.. Also what Darren said lol.

Hahahahahahahahaha! Is it 'the word of God' that makes Muslims believe men are superior to women?

When did I say that men are superior to women?

[Blue_Dagger]

No I'm not. Men are seen as superior to women in the Islamic world.

[Alchemist]

No I'm not. Men are seen as superior to women in the Islamic world.

Big difference between "Islamic world" and Islam.

[BurakBln]

No I'm not. Men are seen as superior to women in the Islamic world.

Do you really think the vast majority of people in the islamic world think that stupid way?
Well Turkey don´t belong to the islamic world but I´m sure there is only a small decline of people who think men are over women in the islamic world... but not the vast majority

[2030]

Do you really think the vast majority of people in the islamic world think that stupid way?
Well Turkey don´t belong to the islamic world but I´m sure there is only a small decline of people who think men are over women in the islamic world... but not the vast majority

It is what islam teaches tho. That not all muslims follow islam to the letter does not mean its not islamic doctrine that men are above women. This is what puzzles me a bit: as a moderate muslim, dont you agree with Barking_Daggers criticism about the treatment of women in the islamic world?

[Alex E]

Text is in teh boldz:

But it does not, as I have explained.

Couldn't find that explanation.

Aside from the fact that you're generalizing, what kind of misbehaving do you mean?

Doing things that are not allowed by the law. Generalization is there because it's mostly true.

That's not the case with The Islamic Golden Age.

It functioned because of the dhimmi-tax. Hardly any dhimmi's left = Golden Age gone.

I'd say it's the exact opposite.. also if you continue with that disrespectful tone (saying the Qur'an and the Bible are shitty books), I will not continue discussing with you. Let's keep it civil.

From the disrespect (not how they act but what they think, chapter 2 the Koran is already mainly about this) towards other cultures to the bossing around of women. It's all there. But mainly the problem is how criticism towards the Islam is not allowed.


There is a God. If I had told you that from when you were a baby you would've believed that too, just as you now don't think there is one. Let's not go there, you're basically trying to turn it in to a God doesn't exist debate.. Also what Darren said lol.

When did I say that men are superior to women?

Implies "the word of God".

[KI]

It's an assumption you're making there in bold, he may have believed there was a God by drawing conclusions from observations about life, how intricate and complex it is. Certainly doesn't say it's proof of any form but then there is not proof to confirm God does not exist. You're doing exactly the same thing by drawing conclusions without evidence.

Fair point darren.

It is what islam teaches tho. That not all muslims follow islam to the letter does not mean its not islamic doctrine that men are above women. This is what puzzles me a bit: as a moderate muslim, dont you agree with Barking_Daggers criticism about the treatment of women in the islamic world?

Especially the "honour killings"....the way women are treated is shocking.

What is in store for Britain...

Nothing like bit of scare mongering piece of media......

Islam is dangerous and far too extreme. EDL, end of.

Im sure you will feel right at home with this idiot.

[Alex E]

It's an assumption you're making there in bold, he may have believed there was a God by drawing conclusions from observations about life, how intricate and complex it is. Certainly doesn't say it's proof of any form but then there is not proof to confirm God does not exist. You're doing exactly the same thing by drawing conclusions without evidence.

That's not a valid argument when you look at the size of the universe. Try 400 billion stars per galaxy, in about 400 billion galaxies as far as we know, in 1 universe as far as we know. Planets all over the place, we're not that special. Like Hawking said, look at your chances of winning the lottery. Rather minimal right? Yet it's won often enough. Besides that, I was being so direct about it because Alchy was, stating that as a fact. Don't see why I should be the only one getting bothered about that. Any assumption I make is because I'm 95% sure. The difference is: I've not been raised like that. My mom educated me in every large religion there is, telling me to make my own decisions. My conclusion: There's no reason to think there's a God like that other than having a lot of responsibility lifted off your shoulders. Hope that clarifies why I said what I said.

[Darren]

That's not a valid argument when you look at the size of the universe. Like Hawking said, look at your chances of winning the lottery. Rather minimal right? Yet it's won often enough. Besides that, I was being so direct about it because Alchy was, stating that as a fact. Don't see why I should be the only one getting bothered about that. Any assumption I make is because I'm 95% sure. The difference is: I've not been raised like that. My mom educated me in every large religion there is, telling me to make my own decisions. My conclusion: There's no reason to think there's a God like that other than having a lot of responsibility lifted off your shoulders. Hope that clarifies why I said what I said.

It is valid, I was stating you were wrong to claim things as definitive without proof. You cannot confirm God as being existent or non existent without something to support your claim, to prove it as factual. You could at most say something is more or less probable to be true, but then why do you think that, support your arguments that's all.

You blasted the approach Alchemist took but then took the same approach yourself, that's why I raised the point.

[Alex E]

It is valid, I was stating you were wrong to claim things as definitive without proof. You cannot confirm God as being existent or non existent without something to support your claim, to prove it as factual. You could at most say something is more or less probable to be true, but then why do you think that, support your arguments that's all.

You blasted the approach Alchemist took but then took the same approach yourself, that's why I raised the point.

Yet you didn't raise it when Alchemist said it, and I only said it to make a point. I always say I'm an agnost and that has a reason. I just said it to show it can be a very long talk if we just start saying "there's a god!" "no there's not!" all the time.