The Islam thread (TIT)

[Alchemist]

Yet you didn't raise it when Alchemist said it, and I only said it to make a point. I always say I'm an agnost and that has a reason. I just said it to show it can be a very long talk if we just start saying "there's a god!" "no there's not!" all the time.

Your original question was, why don't Muslims reform the Qur'an or something.. I replied because it's the word of God, it hasn't changed since the time of the Prophet pbuh, and it is the only religious text that has been preserved completely, now if muslims try to upgrade it, then how is it the word of God?.. Your question also assumes indirectly that God doesn't exist.

[Darren]

Yet you didn't raise it when Alchemist said it, and I only said it to make a point. I always say I'm an agnost and that has a reason. I just said it to show it can be a very long talk if we just start saying "there's a god!" "no there's not!" all the time.

Point noted, and as you say that quickly becomes a very messy debate.

Your original question was, why don't Muslims reform the Qur'an or something.. I replied because it's the word of God, it hasn't changed since the time of the Prophet pbuh, and it is the only religious text that has been preserved completely, now if muslims try to upgrade it, then how is it the word of God?.. Your question also assumes indirectly that God doesn't exist.

Alchemist, I know it is taken to be the word of God by many throughout the world, hence why it is not questioned by those who believe. What troubles me is how open to interpretation it seems to be. I know you've stated before that education is the answer to these issues but then I don't see the great stides needed being taken to bridge the gap of knowledge. Would you at least agree that it would be beneficial to make it as accessible and as easy to interpret / learn as possible? A message can be conveyed in different ways after all.

[KI]

Darren - I love the way you are the mediator between the two. You are the UN .. haha

[Alchemist]

Point noted, and as you say that quickly becomes a very messy debate.



Alchemist, I know it is taken to be the word of God by many throughout the world, hence why it is not questioned by those who believe. What troubles me is how open to interpretation it seems to be. I know you've stated before that education is the answer to these issues but then I don't see the great stides needed being taken to bridge the gap of knowledge. Would you at least agree that it would be beneficial to make it as accessible and as easy to interpret / learn as possible? A message can be conveyed in different ways after all.

It's not really hard to interpret the Qur'an, there is a proper way. First we see how the Qur'an explains itself, then we see how the Qur'ans teachings were implemented and explained by the Prophet pbuh and then we see how they were understood by the direct recipients of the message, because their understanding was the correct understanding endorsed by the Prophet.

[Darren]

It's not really hard to interpret the Qur'an, there is a proper way. First we see how the Qur'an explains itself, then we see how the Qur'ans teachings were implemented and explained by the Prophet pbuh and then we see how they were understood by the direct recipients of the message, because their understanding was the correct understanding endorsed by the Prophet.

Not everybody finds it easy Alchemist. I'm sure you can see there are a lot of groups out there taking a radical, ultimately destructive interpretation different to your own. This is impacting upon Islam's acceptance in the west.

If you want your religion to spread, to be understood & appreciated in the manner you see right can you see that changes could potentially aid that process? I ask you what is more important? A message being delivered, or in how the message is delivered?

Would you not agree with me in saying the former is the most important?

[Alex E]

It's not really hard to interpret the Qur'an, there is a proper way. First we see how the Qur'an explains itself, then we see how the Qur'ans teachings were implemented and explained by the Prophet pbuh and then we see how they were understood by the direct recipients of the message, because their understanding was the correct understanding endorsed by the Prophet.

@Darren: Like he says here, it's fairly easy to interpret. Try reading the thing, you'll see that the interpretation is not the issue...
@Alch: I'm not implying there's no god, I can't be sure of that. I'm implying that either he is far from perfect or this book is not his word ('he' could be 'she'). Whether you think these rules are good or not, let's be fair; a perfect god could've come up with something much better.

[2030]

Alchemist, I know it is taken to be the word of God by many throughout the world, hence why it is not questioned by those who believe. What troubles me is how open to interpretation it seems to be. I know you've stated before that education is the answer to these issues but then I don't see the great stides needed being taken to bridge the gap of knowledge. Would you at least agree that it would be beneficial to make it as accessible and as easy to interpret / learn as possible? A message can be conveyed in different ways after all.

Its not that open to interpretation. Even if you yourself manage to get your own interpretation out of it, what matters is the interpretation taught by Sunni/Shiite islam.

Not everybody finds it easy Alchemist. I'm sure you can see there are a lot of groups out there taking a radical, ultimately destructive interpretation different to your own.

I recall Alchemist approving stoning, death penalty for blasphemy and he wants war with Israel...

Im sure you will feel right at home with this idiot.

Idiot as he may be... if you listen to what he actually says, it is true.
As for the video about France, it is perhaps a bit too alarming for you. Ppl often blame the messenger for a truth they dont want to hear.

[Alchemist]

Not everybody finds it easy Alchemist. I'm sure you can see there are a lot of groups out there taking a radical, ultimately destructive interpretation different to your own. This is impacting upon Islam's acceptance in the west.

If you want your religion to spread, to be understood & appreciated in the manner you see right can you see that changes could potentially aid that process? I ask you what is more important? A message being delivered, or in how the message is delivered?

Would you not agree with me in saying the former is the most important?

Changes in what exactly?

@Alch: I'm not implying there's no god, I can't be sure of that. I'm implying that either he is far from perfect or this book is not his word ('he' could be 'she'). Whether you think these rules are good or not, let's be fair; a perfect god could've come up with something much better.

That's your opinion.

I recall Alchemist approving stoning, death penalty for blasphemy and he wants war with Israel...

Only in an Islamic State (which doesn't exist anymore), and how's that radical? that's a law of a State, if you don't like it then leave, no one is going to hunt you down.. And I don't think that's what Darren meant by radical interpretations, and I never said I want war with Israel, and if I said that I was being sarcastic or trolling, but someone really needs to stop their oppression on the Palestinian people.

[Alex E]

That's your opinion.

So you honestly think there couldn't be a better rulebook for life than what the Islam prescribes?

Only in an Islamic State (which doesn't exist anymore), and how's that radical? that's a law of a State, if you don't like it then leave, no one is going to hunt you down.. And I don't think that's what Darren meant by radical interpretations, and I never said I want war with Israel, and if I said that I was being sarcastic or trolling, but someone really needs to stop their oppression on the Palestinian people.

Oppression? That's just your opinion.
The Israelis might just fight a holy war, just like Muslims think Muhammed did, to spread their territory and increase their influence. It's all just an opinion.

[Alchemist]

So you honestly think there couldn't be a better rulebook for life than what the Islam prescribes?

Yes.

Oppression? That's just your opinion.
The Israelis might just fight a holy war, just like Muslims think Muhammed did, to spread their territory and increase their influence. It's all just an opinion.

There is no holy war in Islam.

[2030]

Only in an Islamic State (which doesn't exist anymore), and how's that radical?

Except Muhammed did all those things even before there was an islamic state, and he is the example to follow according to the koran.
Stoning, death penalty for critics of islam, all the other islamic laws, and striving to create the islamic state in which this will all happen is pretty radical from a Western point of view. Ppl who strive for such a state are a danger to Western society. Its just a pity many Westerners are still thinking islam is just a religion and should be freely excercised here under the freedom of religion. It is, as you clearly demonstrate with your views, a political totalitarian system.

and I never said I want war with Israel, and if I said that I was being sarcastic or trolling, but someone really needs to stop their oppression on the Palestinian people.

If we're ready for it, but even if we are we can't because of the peace treaty. so sadly Israel will continue it's injustice against the Palestinians

http://www.trancefix.nl/showthread.p...=1#post1315854

Looks pretty serious to me?

[Alex E]

Yes.

And thus my point about creativity is proven Anyway, that's just your opinion. And I don't really mind. Do you think other people should think it's perfect too?

There is no holy war in Islam.

Jihad?

[dreyth]

Question:

Why do people judge a religion based on what some idiots who follow that religion do???

Put it this way. You and your classmates have a math textbook. If everyone who takes math uses the textbook but does horribly on exams, is math horrible?
No. The students were horrible at studying math. Math can only be horrible if you quote something from the math book, in context, and then break it down piece by piece, and then prove why its horrible.

Therefore, the only way you can say math is horrible, is not because of what math students do, but what the textbook states to do.

Similarly, if you're going to judge a religion, don't judge it based on the stupid actions of the people, but rather, on what the source of the religion is.

In this case, what I'm trying to say is:
Don't judge Islam because of what some stupid followers do. Judge it firstly by its message in the Qur'an, viewing its verses and deciphering the meanings while in context, contextually and historically.

Oh... and that, uh, that "while in context" part is important.

This:

[5:38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

looks a lot different than...

This:

[5:38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5:39] But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[5:40] Do you not know that Allah-- His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He chastises whom He pleases; and forgives whom He pleases and Allah has power over all things.

And anyway, only a ma'sum is allowed to carry out capital punishment - IF THE ACCUSED DOES NOT REPENT AND REFORM.

[Darren]

[5:38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5:39] But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[5:40] Do you not know that Allah-- His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He chastises whom He pleases; and forgives whom He pleases and Allah has power over all things.

And anyway, only a ma'sum is allowed to carry out capital punishment - IF THE ACCUSED DOES NOT REPENT AND REFORM.

How does one show repent and reform? I assume there is a process to engage with and go through, a simple "sorry, won't happen again" won't suffice.

[dreyth]

There's areas in a lot of Europe now where Muslims out number anyone else and they don't live by the country's own laws.

Again, why do you choose to judge a religion based on what some people do rather than what the Qur'an says to do?!

I mean, would the message of the Qur'an be any better if it wasn't changed AT ALL, word for word, but instead of being medieval, every Muslim in the world acted civilized?

Anyway, there's a verse in the Qur'an about how we must obey local city/state laws, which would entertain the benefit of the doubt of my above argument. I'm searching for it. I'll post it when I find it.

Edit:
Here it is,
[4:59] "O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONG YOU."

So yeah, those people are pretty much sinning when they don't obey the law of the land, unless those laws are opressing Muslims (aka, ban on the woman's scarf, cannot pray 5x a day, etc).