Conservative or liberal (politics)

[Jetflag]

@dmgtz96 since You and I disagree on a hell of a lot of stuff politically and culturally.... can I get your honest take on this?

(yes...yes...its a " youtube expert" video...but one I found quite smart and thorough. and definitely made me think about which " experts" to trust come 2028 or for that matter, elections in my own country)

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

(yes...yes...its a " youtube expert" video...but one I found quite smart and thorough. and definitely made me think about which " experts" to trust come 2028 or for that matter, elections in my own country)

Like the message even if this was a bit over the top for me (though any talking head usually irks me). Most folks I've chatted with who dread to the next four years aren't terribly surprised by the outcome or who voted for Trump. It's just that the change candidate happened to be DJT, again. A guy with no morals, no ethics, no temperament, and a mandate for revenge. It's a damning indictment of the Democratic party, that people hate Gov't and its people so much they are willing to burn it down, perhaps at their own expense.

But unlike my sentiment in 2016... meh. Norms are already gone so we start from that reality at least. The supreme court was already stacked for my lifetime. This is what people want. Let's see what comes of it. If it goes poorly, hopefully Dems find a way to connect with the average American (narrator: they will not).

 

[dmgtz96]

@dmgtz96 since You and I disagree on a hell of a lot of stuff politically and culturally.... can I get your honest take on this?

(yes...yes...its a " youtube expert" video...but one I found quite smart and thorough. and definitely made me think about which " experts" to trust come 2028 or for that matter, elections in my own country)

Tbh, I've been spending a lot more time in right wing /men's spaces trying to understand what happened. But, just like saltacidfatheatacid, I wasn't terribly surprised that he won.

In the weeks leading up to the election, Kamala's campaign kept encouraging men to vote for Kamala in support of the women in their life (as opposed to, you know, for their own interests, or due to the candidate's merit). There were even some cringe TikToks about men sitting out for this election, and women being disappointed and turned off about that. Also, let's not forget the issue with "the bear" from earlier this year that still had men (mostly white, but now also black and Latino?) upset.

Kamala wasn't a good candidate and wouldn't have been chosen in a true competitive process. She, and her campaign, felt entitled to men's vote because voting for her was (presumably) the morally right thing to do. She's not Trump. Tim Walz was also a weak example of masculinity. Nobody wants to be like him.

But Democrats won't learn. The 4B backlash in response to Trump's victory is evidence of that. They'll keep losing as long as men are in the claws of the right. This election had women's rights at the forefront, but it was the men who won.

 

[dmgtz96]

All I can say is, bring it on. If Trump wants to dismantle our institutions, then so be it. Clearly, so many people think there's a lot wrong in our government.

 

[Jetflag]

The 4B backlash in response to Trump's victory is evidence of that.

Yeah that is a interesting phenomenon.. a kind of Athenian lysistrata from South Korea of all places what I heard of it..

You know..Out of all possible reactions post election outcome, I was actually most surprised by that move.

its like ok.. feminists/pro choicers are now onboard with project 2025 are they?

- practice self restraint in casual sex
- do not have abortions (no sex = no conception)
- basically live as celibate nuns..benegesserit head-shave included..

..If this is your way of sticking it to the conservatives, and promoting planned parenthood clinics in your respective States.. ok you do you..but I’m not convinced it’s going to upset them much.

in fact, I’d half expect a #WankforTrump troll-movement to pop up on x somewhere by now..but not even that..

 

[dmgtz96]

Yeah that is a interesting phenomenon.. a kind of Athenian lysistrata from South Korea of all places what I heard of it..

You know..Out of all possible reactions post election outcome, I was actually most surprised by that move.

its like ok.. feminists/pro choicers are now onboard with project 2025 are they?

- practice self restraint in casual sex
- do not have abortions (no sex = no conception)
- basically live as celibate nuns..benegesserit head-shave included..

..If this is your way of sticking it to the conservatives, and promoting planned parenthood clinics in your respective States.. ok you do you..but I’m not convinced it’s going to upset them much.

in fact, I’d half expect a #WankforTrump troll-movement to pop up on x somewhere by now..but not even that..

it just comes off as sheer entitlement. You didn't get your way, so now you withhold sex and relationships. Okay, we're in this situation already because so many men have been shut off from sex and relationships,.but you do you.

The more interesting part of that video were the Trump/AOC voters. I think everyone is just tired of "the establishment." When all the big celebrities started endorsing Harris and even campaigning for her (like Jennifer Lawrence), that's when I knew Trump was going to win.

 

[Archon]

it just comes off as sheer entitlement. You didn't get your way, so now you withhold sex and relationships. Okay, we're in this situation already because so many men have been shut off from sex and relationships,.but you do you.

I straight up laughed at this. So many things wrong here...

 

[Jetflag]

it just comes off as sheer entitlement. You didn't get your way, so now you withhold sex and relationships. Okay, we're in this situation already because so many men have been shut off from sex and relationships,.but you do you.

The more interesting part of that video were the Trump/AOC voters. I think everyone is just tired of "the establishment." When all the big celebrities started endorsing Harris and even campaigning for her (like Jennifer Lawrence), that's when I knew Trump was going to win.

yeah i think you're spot on there... Though to be fair..given the amount of fear that has been instilled in those women i can understand the kneejerk reaction to it all...but IDD a far more effective strategy, long run especially from said women's side, would imo be something in the opposite direction.

Speaking from experience here. Women can be very, very persuasive and effective with encouragement and reward in getting men to the direction they want them to go, instead of using bitterness and rejection.

If my wife wants me to do something for her that I don't like, She knows the method of "you can sleep on cough then" just doesn't work. Because my reaction will be something along the lines of: " fine with me, its like camping...let me know if you want something from the fridge from where you sleep upstairs!, good night"

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

...the amount of fear that has been instilled in those women i can understand the kneejerk reaction to it all...

Instilled in? You think they are just brainwashed sheeple? GTFO. The net effect of SC decisions, current legislation, and future intended legislation for women in the USA is something legitimate to fear. Women are straight up dying cause they cannot get emergency care for life threatening pregnancies. Even Ireland realized the insanity of this policy due to one well-documented death. Perhaps you dudes should stay in your in lane on this topic FFS.

 

[Jetflag]

Instilled in? You think they are just brainwashed sheeple? GTFO. The net effect of SC decisions, current legislation, and future intended legislation for women in the USA is something legitimate to fear. Women are straight up dying cause they cannot get emergency care for life threatening pregnancies. Even Ireland realized the insanity of this policy due to one well-documented death. Perhaps you dudes should stay in your in lane on this topic FFS.

Bullshit. roe v wade is/was one of the most ineffectual, borderline un-constitution paper tigers in existence, who’s legal basis even one of the more/most progressive female judges, of her time,namely Ginsburg, thought was shit.

for 4 years the corpus of msn media and the likes of “the view” screeched and preached how Donald Trump was going to be a fascist dictator 24/7 turning all that had a vagina into his personal concubines mad-max style…and all that happened under his 4 year presidency on that particular front, (be didn’t even do it himself) was hand the responsibility of what is arguably one of the most morally grey healthcare topics in existence to where they, in accord to how your country was set up, belong.

The Individual States.

and that’s the lot.

Trump himself is pro-choice, his wife is an abortion advocate, and he has stated on multiple occasions that he will veto any national abortion ban attempt because he considers it unconstitutional amongst other things.

So yes.. irrational, propagandistic, borderline Alex-jones style fear has been instilled into a lot the women now shaving their heads.. and I think this type of fear mongering borders on evil..it’s not just spite that they lost this election..some are genuinely afraid to the point of hysteria that they’ll be put into “broliarcy” breeding camps.. which is patently absurd, all evidence to the contrary.

about as absurd as thinking men, as at least 50% of the whole getting pregnant equation, should have nothing to say in the matter. My post wasn’t even about abortion ye or ne, it was about fear being instilled.

But even if I was..I’m not going to be told to “stay in my lane” by a hypocrite who himself is a man, and thinks that he by some rare exception does somehow have the privilege to talk bout this and how he feels about the matter.

Either you think men should have no say in all this, in which case be consistent and STFU,

..or you do, as evidenced by your take on the matter in which case have the decency to allow “us” in this case me, mine aswell

 

[dmgtz96]

I straight up laughed at this. So many things wrong here...

There's nothing wrong with what I said.

Edit: to explain why: society felt entitled to men's vote. Men turned their back on society and voted for the man who promises to destroy the status quo.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

about as absurd as thinking men, as at least 50% of the whole getting pregnant equation, should have nothing to say in the matter.

Unless it's your body it's not really your choice is it?

 

[Hensmon]

The fear of what state mandated abortion rules bring is real though @Jetflag. I was just in Texas and my friend and her husband are fearful (to a degree) or remaining there because they do not want a second child. The first one was very problematic (and traumatic) for her health. She really worries what happens if she was to get accidentally pregnant again. Its not a nice position to be in. There are many many other different types of negative anecdotes too.

There's no doubt there was a level of fear regarding women's rights was fanned to extreme levels though. I did meet Americas who believed abortion itself would be banned across the country and that other women's right taken away. We do however have to acknowledge that fear rhetoric is just part of the voting cycle. The Republicans did it with immigrants e.g "eating your pets". Best not to use this kind of stuff in any real debate, it doesn't represent reality, just the soap opera.

 

[Jetflag]

Unless it's your body it's not really your choice is it?

By that logic you should be perfectly fine with men deciding for themselves from now on on whether or not they pay child alimony.



“Unless it’s your wallet it’s not really your choice is it?”

 

[Jetflag]

The fear of what state mandated abortion rules bring is real though @Jetflag. I was just in Texas and my friend and her husband are fearful (to a degree) or remaining there because they do not want a second child. The first one was very problematic (and traumatic) for her health. She really worries what happens if she was to get accidentally pregnant again. Its not a nice position to be in. There are many many other different types of negative anecdotes too.

There's no doubt there was a level of fear regarding women's rights was fanned to extreme levels though. I did meet Americas who believed abortion itself would be banned across the country and that other women's right taken away. We do however have to acknowledge that fear rhetoric is just part of the voting cycle. The Republicans did it with immigrants e.g "eating your pets". Best not to use this kind of stuff in any real debate, it doesn't represent reality, just the soap opera.

I’m not dismissing their fears/ concerns.

I am (tenatively) pro choice. But I also don’t think the level of hysteria created is in any way responsible.

“normal” or not. Goes for the border issue too by the way.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

By that logic you should be perfectly fine with men deciding for themselves from now on on whether or not they pay child alimony.

“Unless it’s your wallet it’s not really your choice is it?”

False equivalence homie. Just shows you don't really understand US laws regarding the two very different subjects.

At any rate, my only opinion, based on my siblings and my wife, is that there are things coming in the upcoming admin to fear. @Hensmon gave you another example. My cousin is actually moving to have care in CA from TX during her pregnancy as a result as well.

 

[Hensmon]

But I also don’t think the level of hysteria created is in any way responsible.

I think you focus too much on the kind of soap opera youtube and mainstream media stuff sometimes. For sure there are crazy people, as you say who are shaving their heads or whatever, and media CNN types will turn up hysterical rhetoric, but this is somewhat minor reflection of actual day to day reality. You give it too much weight and attention. People do have concerns, sometimes a bit exaggerated, but there's enough genuine real issues in this topic that it doesnt really warrant as much push-back as you are giving it. Its a somewhat artificial debate.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

I think you focus too much on the kind of soap opera youtube and mainstream media stuff sometimes. For sure there are crazy people, as you say who are shaving their heads or whatever, and media CNN types will turn up hysterical rhetoric, but this is somewhat minor reflection of actual day to day reality. You give it too much weight and attention. People do have concerns, sometimes a bit exaggerated, but there's enough genuine real issues in this topic that it doesnt really warrant as much push-back as you are giving it. Its a somewhat artificial debate.

100% agreed, and a what was written above (instilled) translates to: women aren't deciding based on rational fears of their own development - someone is making them fear. My dude, women have autonomy and can make their own mind up about how the upcoming admin will affect them. And yeah, perhaps not the best take on a trance website which is likely 99.9% male.

 

[Jetflag]

False equivalence homie. Just shows you don't really understand US laws regarding the two very different subjects.

The point wasn't to equate the two as such @SaltAcidFatHeatAcid,

The point was to show that, when a human life is created, which I would argue is actually sacrosact, by 2 (neccesairy) parties, its asinine to utterly exclude one party from the descision to kill it off, solely based on the freedom factor of the other. especially if there is a level of care demanded from both parties.

edit: In a bloody discussion i'm happy to have because its an interresting one...but that we shouldn't be having because we where talking about 4B of all things ffs!

At any rate, my only opinion, based on my siblings and my wife, is that there are things coming in the upcoming admin to fear. @Hensmon gave you another example. My cousin is actually moving to have care in CA from TX during her pregnancy as a result as well.

i'm not saying there isn't fear or legit concerns...what i'm saying is. A portion of said fear is artificially and irrationally instilled, of which the 4k reaction I don't think is the best thing to be doing...Thats all.

i'm a married man with a (pregnant) sister aswell m8... i'm well familiar with the weight of responsibility when it comes to caring for women/children.

 

[Jetflag]

I think you focus too much on the kind of soap opera youtube and mainstream media stuff sometimes. For sure there are crazy people, as you say who are shaving their heads or whatever, and media CNN types will turn up hysterical rhetoric, but this is somewhat minor reflection of actual day to day reality. You give it too much weight and attention. People do have concerns, sometimes a bit exaggerated, but there's enough genuine real issues in this topic that it doesnt really warrant as much push-back as you are giving it. Its a somewhat artificial debate.

I think this entire discussion has drifted extremely off course and somehow managed to drag me with it. so, well done everyone..


The topic was 4B, which is a twitch/tiktok phenomena...and I specifically said that i can understand " those" women.. who're mutilating themselves/shaving their heads off....when said group has been, to what is at least partially, been constantly exposed to quote: "CNN types with hysterical rethoric."

but that I think that there's better strategies imaginable if you want to win " men" back to your side, (as women with agency @SaltAcidFatHeatAcid...I never denied they have that for the record!)

and then all of a sudden this became an abortion and freewill issue..