Conservative or liberal (politics)

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

where’s the lie? As a single country outside NATO or other partnerships they haven’t, same with NL

WOW. Just absolutely minimizing their participation in two wars there eh? I guess when an ally brings you in (Article 5 in one case might I add) that causes significant loss of life it doesn't count? You should join JD Vance's PR team.

 

[Hensmon]

Withdrawing [military] aid from Ukraine is a good thing. How is this not obvious? The longer the war goes on the more loss of life and the larger the loss of Ukrainian territory. This is just a fact. What does a war of attrition, that cannot be won, achieve? Withdrawing aid is a step to forcing desperately needed peace.

 

[facade1984]

Yikes. So this is where we're at huh

 

[LostLegend]

where’s the lie?

Over 600 British troops were killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Ukraine, for the record also sent troops to these conflicts.

JD Vance is an absolute worm of a man.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

Withdrawing aid from Ukraine is a good thing. How is this not obvious? The longer the war goes on the more loss of life and the larger the loss of Ukrainian territory. This is just a fact. What does a war of attrition, that cannot be won, achieve? Withdrawing aids is a step to forcing desperately needed peace.

You act like this is a forgone conclusion. This was not a serious talking point by our gov't, on either side, nor any of our allies, before the admin change. It was a Russian talking point, much like the threat of nuclear conflict. Pulling support from Ukraine while Russia is at its weakest is fucking insane. As is pursuing reduction in sanctions before a deal is reached with the relevant parties. Time will tell I guess.

 

[Hensmon]

Yikes. So this is where we're at huh

I'm just repeating what foreign policy experts are saying. It's the view of some of the greatest analysts and thinker on Ukraine, Russia, US and Nato, see Mearschiemer, Sachs, Ken Waltz and Kotkin. I mean we can see with our own eyes what is happening the longer the war prolongs. Why would we want that to continue, when there is a real chance for peace?

p.s btw, when I reference withdrawing aid, I am talking about military equipment

 

[Hensmon]

I guess I would ask then... show me the compelling arguments you've found from foreign policy experts, that outline why the continuation of the war will lead to a positive outcome for Ukraine. I can't find that.

 

[facade1984]

For me all that type of talk is just getting the cart before the horse. Nobody's saying a continuation of war is a good thing but why are we now shifting that responsibility towards Zelenskyy instead of Putin, you know, the guy who invaded another country

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

Pick a list of experts the EU and NATO listen to. They won’t be realists and you won’t agree with them. It’s a pointless exercise.

 

[Hensmon]

Pick a list of experts the EU and NATO listen to.

Show me, or point me in the direction then. If someone is indeed making a compelling argument as to why the US should continue funding the war, and why this is the best scenario for Ukraine, then let's hear/see it.

I'm not being facetious about this. I believe what I do because of the overwhelming evidence, backed by the greatest foreign policy minds of our generation. In the case of Sachs, he's been advisor to Ukrainian, Russian and US governments for decades. Literally in the negotiating rooms at some points. If you believe they've got it wrong, then show me who is making that case.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

Show me, or point me in the direction then. If someone is indeed making a compelling argument as to why the US should continue funding the war, and why this is the best scenario for Ukraine, then let's hear/see it.

I'm not being facetious about this. I believe what I do because of the overwhelming evidence, backed by the greatest foreign policy minds of our generation. In the case of Sachs, he's been advisor to Ukrainian, Russian and US governments for decades. Literally in the negotiating rooms at some points. If you believe they've got it wrong, then show me who is making that case.

Honestly I’ve spent too much time trying to convince other people on here. It won’t change the course of what’s happening right now. I need to take my own advice and focus on what’s in my control.

Oh and I saw this posted a few minutes after what I posted above.

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-will-work-firmly-advance-reunification-with-taiwan-premier-2025-03-05/

 

[facade1984]

I still don't get how the discourse has gone way past poor Zelenskyy just trying to defend his people from invaders without trying to score any dumb ass political points. It's like you fuckers can't see the wood for the trees and I'm genuinely disgusted

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

I still don't get how the discourse has gone way past poor Zelenskyy just trying to defend his people from invaders without trying to score any dumb ass political points. It's like you fuckers can't see the wood for the trees and I'm genuinely disgusted

I truly believe Trump is compromised. What happened to Zelensky in the Oval Office was despicable. I think it really woke up many global leaders to how fucked up our administration is and how little respect they have for norms, diplomacy and traditional ideals the US has championed. And it showes how unreliable and untrustworthy the US has become. Makes me sick.

 

[Jetflag]

Just absolutely minimizing their participation in two wars there eh? I guess when an ally brings you in (Article 5 in one case might I add) that causes significant loss of life it doesn't count? You should join JD Vance's PR team.

no. that doesn't count. not in this context.

To be clear, i'm not excusing his

absolute worm of a man.

cuntish way of putting it, and good that he apologized post hoc... but what he says is correct.

A little bit of this and a little bit of that in collaboration with your mates is not " fighting a war" in the context of in pulling the entire Ukraine war-horse cart with or without France. and that's what we're talking about here isn't it?

Even if the whole EU was behind it, which they're not by the way:

- their munition stocks are nearly dry,
- they cannot provide the anti air support material/materiel needed to mount an continuous effective defense against Russia.
- they don't even have a proper war industry set up yet...
- and Ukraine has been steadily losing the war -> WITH <- the US providing all that and more for years now..

They can't do it, And they know it.

which leaves 3 options:

1 go in ' murica' guns-blazing/ fully commit to the war with US troops on the ground, which will lead to a nuclear conflict, at which point you can complain about something else then tarrifs if there is still a world left by then..
2 continue the meat-grinder which Russia is slowly but certainly winning.
3 opt for peace. which thankfully is what both Rutte and now Zelensky are finally beginning to realize.

I still don't get how the discourse has gone way past poor Zelenskyy just trying to defend his people from invaders without trying to score any dumb ass political points.

Because Ukraine is losing, despite all the support they've been getting from the US continuously, and Zelensky's people are dying... Zelensky might be a great man in a tough spot...but at this point he is a bad Leader, who's emotions (understandibly) got the better of him. What he needs to do, disgusting as you might find it, is suck up to the big boss in the white house..because if not more and more and more people will >DIE<... for nothing.


which, i might add, is a hell of a lot more disgusting then anyone's sense of moral superiority here...


Fortunately he seems to understand that now with his latest olive branch to Trump

 

[Jetflag]

...Even if you wish to continue the fight purely for the moral reason and ethical, liberal ethos of the west , which as a "JD Vance's PR team strategist" you might be surprised to hear I can actually agree too. (one should only sacrifice ethics if the pragmatic cost is too high, which in this case i would argue it is)

Pauzing the war for now is still the tactical sound thing to do.

because it allows Europe (theoretically at least, if Brussels is going to run this it'll run it into the ground) to set-up a proper sustainable defense-industry on-par with that of Russia.

and in that sense you could see this as a strategic retreat

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

I will echo a point Jon Stewart made a few nights ago which seems to get lost in these convos. Just because we recognize the treachery from the USA right now, we identify this style of diplomacy is wrong and offensive, we recognize the USA are at odds with our core allies while we cozy up with Russia, which is madness, it DOES not mean that we want the war to continue as it has. What I and I think most of us want is to support Zelensky and coordinate on a peace agreement with security guarantees as a united front, backed with sanctions and isolation. What is happening now is a poison pill shortcut laden with betrayal and spite. And that is why our partners are so furious. We smear and denigrate Zelensky to justify Trump deepthroating Putin while maybe receiving a mineral reacharound. It’s just so sad for all involved and causes so much unneeded damage to US standing.

 

[Hensmon]

What is happening now is a poison pill shortcut laden with betrayal and spite

Why do none of the foreign policy experts and serious investigative journalists paint this same picture you are describing though? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what credible (often non-partisan) experts say and what the media is presenting.

This is why I have been asking you what kind of serious analysis you are basing some of the things you say off. I like John Stewart, but he's a comedian. Why take his position so seriously vs Sachs, who was an advisor for Ukrainian and Russian presidents?

Sachs take on this may be wrong btw, but at least his arguments are grounded in evidence, historical context and his own foreign policy experience. Your summary of whats happening doesn't have any of that.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

Why do none of the foreign policy experts and serious investigative journalists paint this same picture you are describing though? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what credible (often non-partisan) experts say and what the media is presenting.

This is why I have been asking you what kind of serious analysis you are basing some of the things you say off. I like John Stewart, but he's a comedian. Why take his position so seriously vs Sachs, who was an advisor for Ukrainian and Russian presidents?

Sachs take on this may be wrong btw, but at least his arguments are grounded in evidence, historical context and his own foreign policy experience. Your summary of whats happening doesn't have any of that.

B/C the media who support your argument also present the opposite bound. Only pulling financial support, intel, immediately and in the chaotic uncoordinated fashion will lead to the peaceful objective you seek. There’s a coordinated middle ground that would be discussed without the media which is what would make the most sense, but here we are shitting on our allies in public with our big stick instead of actual diplomacy.

And for the record, I just thought Stewart framed what many of us are already thinking. He’d be 1000x the president compared to Trump anyway. No one should listen to the orange human turd IMO.

 

[facade1984]

I dunno, it seems like Russia is doing a better job of conquering America than Ukraine

 

[Jetflag]

I dunno, it seems like Russia is doing a better job of conquering America than Ukraine

..or America conquering Russia It might seem contradictory now but closer economic and diplomatic ties with Russia is actually a far better control rod/ deterent for future incursions to Ukraine then the endless list of sanctions and boycotts that Russia has weathered. It also keeps Russia, at least in part, away from big winny the poo China.