Conservative or liberal (politics)

[Jetflag]

Interesting election in NL

D66, the Dutch equivalent of the Dems, and PVV under Wilders both have 26 seats, with only a couple of thousands in favour of D66 under Rob Jetten, and most probably at the expense of every major left leaning party in NL (green/labour, Volt, animal welfare party, socialist party, etc.)

a centre left coalition over left is Jettens preferred coalition, but is blocked by at least one party, the liberals/VVD, who, from an ideological perspective and campaign promises will not go into government with green/labour

a centre right coalition with VVD, CDA(regent party) and JA21 (new conservative/ post liberal pragmatists) is doable, but will form a stalemate in parliament, splitting the 2e chamber 75 to 75, with only a slight majority in the 1e room (senate)

one of the smaller right parties like BBB/farmers party, or SGP might break that stalemate, but both, much like a lot of small left wing parties (Turkish party Denk, Animal welfare party PvDD, Socialist SP etc.) Prefer opposition due to program promises and/or ideology.



they could opt for a minority government, but would most likely not get anything done so.. what’s the point?

interresting times

I predict this is going to take a while if not lead to new elections.. the only good thing from my end is that people might, in the interim, will realise that despite the Dutch government being in defacto on hold life pretty much goes on as usual, and so do we really need a big daddy’s government managing everything for us at all?

 

[Julian Del Agranda]

and so do we really need a big daddy’s government managing everything for us at all?

Well this may seem so at first glance, you go to work, you have dinner, sleep.

But when decision making is stopped, there won’t be any laws improving immigration, the care system, rules that prohibit building houses, rules that allow schools to discriminate (Bontenbal lost some votes there! )… what about laws against selling vapes to children, laws against big tech monsters, laws for AI handling…

There’s a lot to do and overcome in the near future…

(just random examples)

 

[Hensmon]

so I don’t blame the left for voting for yet another “real socialism has never been tried” mayor.

Socialism is a wierd one for me to settle on. Criticisms are articulated well by the opponents, and I can understand or even agree at times with their perspective, and the implications they point towards. I acknowledge the case-studies given as examples of failure, i.e Venezuela (let's ignore the 80+ economic sanctions this time).

But then what about China? The biggest economic success story of all time. Whether you want to call it socialism, or communism, or something else it is undeniably an economic framework that is much futher towards the left than the US. So if the US moves further towards, or adopts elements of that model, is it really so scary?

Bolivia is another example where a decade of socialist rule actually saw the country transform. I actually saw it with my own eyes when I visited 10 years apart. Roads, schools, public spaces, utilities appeared out of nowhere. It lifted so many out of poverty and the working class and indigenous people spoke of this in my small interactions with them. I think I remember reading too that it was the fastest growing SA economy at one point. US and UK also had their biggest growth periods during the 'new deal' and 'progressive' eras', and today, left leaning EU countries do very well economically.

It seems like there are plenty of examples of successful left leaning economic models then, even at the extremes. So for the US to shift somewhat that way, from its already centre-right position, seems nothing to worry about. It might even be good. The social dimension to this is another thing, but that's for another post...

 

[Jetflag]

Well this may seem so at first glance, you go to work, you have dinner, sleep.

But when decision making is stopped, there won’t be any laws improving immigration, the care system, rules that prohibit building houses, rules that allow schools to discriminate (Bontenbal lost some votes there! )… what about laws against selling vapes to children, laws against big tech monsters, laws for AI handling…

There’s a lot to do and overcome in the near future…

(just random examples)

Sure, A government has, or should have, in my opinion, a few key tasks

- monopoly on (militairy/police) power and proportional violence
- control the borders of the area in which the voting constituency resides
- regulate/collect money for things like basic infrastructure
- enforce rule of law.

what has happened to NL in the last decade after wo2 however is that these basic task have expanded to the point where now defacto 50% of the Dutch economy a regulatory government apparatchik preventing everything from kids fierljeppen in the fields “because the environment”, setting off fireworks at New Year’s Eve, blocking utility vans from entering city centres, trying to manipulate culture into their preferred direction, to funding foreign wars without democratic mandate/consent.

it has become way, way to big, way to regulatory/nosey. It wants to regulate everything and everyone

now you can make up a “valid” reason for each of the things I mentioned ofcourse but ultimately a government should be there to (in a basic sense) facilitate the citizenry, not (micro) manage it into oblivion, that is imo an inhumane recipe for disaster.

 

[Jetflag]

Socialism is a wierd one for me to settle on. Criticisms are articulated well by the opponents, and I can understand or even agree at times with their perspective, and the implications they point towards. I acknowledge the case-studies given as examples of failure, i.e Venezuela (let's ignore the 80+ economic sanctions this time).

But then what about China? The biggest economic success story of all time. Whether you want to call it socialism, or communism, or something else it is undeniably an economic framework that is much futher towards the left than the US. So if the US moves further towards, or adopts elements of that model, is it really so scary?

Bolivia is another example where a decade of socialist rule actually saw the country transform. I actually saw it with my own eyes when I visited 10 years apart. Roads, schools, public spaces, utilities appeared out of nowhere. It lifted so many out of poverty and the working class and indigenous people spoke of this in my small interactions with them. I think I remember reading too that it was the fastest growing SA economy at one point. US and UK also had their biggest growth periods during the 'new deal' and 'progressive' eras', and today, left leaning EU countries do very well economically.

It seems like there are plenty of examples of successful left leaning economic models then, even at the extremes. So for the US to shift somewhat that way, from its already centre-right position, seems nothing to worry about. It might even be good. The social dimension to this is another thing, but that's for another post...

Well let’s first of all draw a distinction between socialism/ communism as an ideology, and social programs, because they’re not the same thing. The Us military is a social program for instance.

The reason china works better now in terms of wealth for its demos is because it adopted (state) capitalism under xi. Ever since that has been expanded the country has grown on that front. It is a success despite socialism, not because of it. Same with say Sweden by the way, only in reverse.

China is ridongculous in size, resources and manpower, and had it adopted capitalism earlier it would already probably be the world leader instead of the US. Same with Bolivia. (Capitalist) Santa Cruz basically powers the rest of the country in terms of the welfare ít pays for.



Socialism under its most basic definition (each according to their ability to each according to their needs) works.


(Wait! Did borderline libertarian jetflag just say that??)


Yes I did.


It’s just not scalable
I am a communist when it comes to my family/ children for instance.


But the minute that “tribe” becomes to big and disconnected, the system collapses, sooner or later. Because I’m not willing to work for or acquire wealth for complete strangers and what’s more.. neither are you. Humans are intrinsically tribal and the larger the group, the bigger the disconnect between people becomes. If you don't allow (which socialist regimes don't) citizenry to "hoard" their wealth to a degree and keep the fruits of their labour, they will either leave if they can, or just stop caring. This is why in say: the USSR: farmers would, instead of finishing the harvest before the storm just go for a smoke indoors and the crops be damned, whereas the european/american equivilant would go that extra mile to secure his profit.



This is why Mandami, I think, will fail, calling it now. His focus is on éverything external/ foreign, instead of the "common" american tribe so to speak. SOMALI cab drivers, CHINESE factory workers PERUVIAN nurses. Now he might remain in power for a while like Kahn, but New York will then go down (again I think) the route of London, increasingly unsafe, fractured, divided and just awful, till the point where people will start leaving if they can.

 

[Super-Frog Saves Tokyo]

As someone born in Bow, East London, a West Ham fan and regular attendee, with aged relatives living all over the city from SW, to N, to East, and someone who recently sold a house in the leafy suburbs of London, as well as visiting friends and relatives in Islington, Dagenham, Stratford, Chiswick, Plaistow, Spitalfields and attending shows, shopping and generally spending a lot of time in my home City, I'm really interested in how London is 'unsafe, fractured, divided and just awful...' to an outsider.

Did you have issues last time you spent time there?

 

[Jetflag]

As someone born in Bow, East London, a West Ham fan and regular attendee, with aged relatives living all over the city from SW, to N, to East, and someone who recently sold a house in the leafy suburbs of London, as well as visiting friends and relatives in Islington, Dagenham, Stratford, Chiswick, Plaistow, Spitalfields and attending shows, shopping and generally spending a lot of time in my home City, I'm really interested in how London is 'unsafe, fractured, divided and just awful...' to an outsider.

Did you have issues last time you spent time there?

Yes. Though not me personally. Last time I visited in 2020 we went there en-route for a trip to the Outer Hebrides and my mate got mugged. Lots of litter/dirt everywhere and I found people to be ruder/ more avoidant/ and just more on edge wherever you looked. No offense intended to you or your hometown, but It generally felt more like Oakland without the sunshine then the English Capital we where supposed to visit to be bluntly honest. And I can still remember visiting London with my parents early 2000’s when that wasn't the case, or at the very least much less so

This compared to say: Edinburgh, which was the next town we passed through, which was quite nice. Friendlier and more relaxed people, not constantly feeling we're being watched or at risk of pickpocketeers. And felt like we where actually in Scotland, and a place I walk away with wanting to visit again.

 

[Super-Frog Saves Tokyo]

Yes. Though not me personally. Last time I visited in 2020 we went there en-route for a trip to the Outer Hebrides and my mate got mugged. Lots of litter/dirt everywhere and I found people to be ruder/ more avoidant/ and just more on edge wherever you looked. No offense intended to you or your hometown, but It generally felt more like Oakland without the sunshine then the English Capital we where supposed to visit to be bluntly honest. And I can still remember visiting London with my parents early 2000’s when that wasn't the case, or at the very least much less so

This compared to say: Edinburgh, which was the next town we passed through, which was quite nice. Friendlier and more relaxed people, not constantly feeling we're being watched or at risk of pickpocketeers. And felt like we where actually in Scotland, and a place I walk away with wanting to visit again.

Please, God, no: zero offence taken. I'm just genuinely interested in the views of outsiders, and how they rarely tally with my lived experience. London has changed for sure, but the outside comments on the place are often far wide of the mark. I still love visiting and the City is still my favourite in the world slightly behind NYC, and Rotterdam in my personal experience. We go to the theatre a lot, and to a lot of gigs. My family and I am from the roughest part in the entire city, and it was far more dangerous and crime-ridden in the seventies>eighties.

I find the figures, 'facts' and general reporting are usually focused on the negative, but there aren't many cities where you can finish work on Fenchurch St, have a nice bite of food on the lawn of the Tower of London, then stroll across Tower Bridge and wander along the south bank with all its art, history and beautiful architecture.

Then again, the only time someone attempted to mug me I broke their jaw, so that's rarely something I worry about. However, the idiots clearly know who to target in terms of tourism. A lot of people seem to blame this on 'immigrants' but as we all know, the criminals were far more dangerous and brutal in ye London of olde.

Edinburgh is a stunning city: truly beautiful, and having a Scottish wife and a Scottish mother means I've a massive appreciation for it.

But then if I'm not mistaken, you're Dutch? You may have a very different view of Rotterdam than I did when I visited, and I thought it was breathtaking. As was the trip along to Dordrecht which was equally beautiful when I was best man at a wedding there. Locals may tell tales of people bumming swans, but I've not heard, so I just take it at face value.

 

[Jetflag]

Please, God, no: zero offence taken. I'm just genuinely interested in the views of outsiders

Cheers. I've worked with Norf and Souf brits over at the, (party) UK company I work for m8, learned to careful when it comes to the touchy subject picking one town over the other (or worse, football teams)

Then again, the only time someone attempted to mug me I broke their jaw,

Nice.

But then if I'm not mistaken, you're Dutch? You may have a very different view of Rotterdam than I did when I visited, and I thought it was breathtaking. As was the trip along to Dordrecht which was equally beautiful when I was best man at a wedding there.

I've lived/ worked in Rotterdam for over 12 years in various places. One thing Rotterdam has in common with London is its multi-ethnicity/culturalism and both mayors being Labour (back then) . What I think Mandami and respectively Kahn can learn from Aboutaleb as a mayor Is, even though they're on the same political spectrum, Aboutaleb néver took the side of one group over the other on practically any subject. Not even when it involved his own religion. His concern was always the whole of the city, not one (disenfranchised) group over the other. It was always "Rotterdammers". full stop, wether that was the local pernis harbour worker, the jewish bankeer or marrokan coffeeshop owner. Which is why, even though me and a lot of friends are politically on the right/libertarian side of the spectrum, we generally think quite highly of Aboutaleb as a mayor.

Locals may tell tales of people bumming swans, but I've not heard, so I just take it at face value.

Oh who hasn't! its a real art catching them though, defo a two man job.

 

[Super-Frog Saves Tokyo]

Cheers. I've worked with Norf and Souf brits over at the, (party) UK company I work for m8, learned to careful when it comes to the touchy subject picking one town over the other (or worse, football teams)


Nice.

I've lived/ worked in Rotterdam for over 12 years in various places. One thing Rotterdam has in common with London is its multi-ethnicity/culturalism and both mayors being Labour (back then) . What I think Mandami and respectively Kahn can learn from Aboutaleb as a mayor Is, even though they're on the same political spectrum, Aboutaleb néver took the side of one group over the other on practically any subject. Not even when it involved his own religion. His concern was always the whole of the city, not one (disenfranchised) group over the other. It was always "Rotterdammers". full stop, wether that was the local pernis harbour worker, the jewish bankeer or marrokan coffeeshop owner. Which is why, even though me and a lot of friends are politically on the right/libertarian side of the spectrum, we generally think quite highly of Aboutaleb as a mayor.


Oh who hasn't! its a real art catching them though, defo a two man job.

I'll never forget the first time we arrived in Dordrecht and those gigantic massive geese beasts are just wandering around the park.

Absolutely shat myself when it just waddled out of a bush and came toward me.

Such a beautiful place.

 

[Hensmon]

You're right on calling him out about the characterization of London, Frog. It is nonsense what you are saying @Jetflag, and a very youtube/social media, politicized take. Been going there since I was 15, lived there from 2012 - 2020, and still go 2x a year when coming back to visit friends. Not only is not awful, but it might be the best big city in the world, and I've been to a lot of them, all over the US, Europe and Asia. NYC is the close second. Both have always been highly-multicultural, and that's hardly changed in 20 years. Safety had never been an issue for me, in fact I find it one of the safest.

I'm with you that migration is a real issue, and it can/does have negative social and economic consequences, but what happens is that it gets over exaggerated in instances in order to feed preconceived beliefs the Right have in the culture war. There's 9 million people in London, so if you want to find anecdotes and package them up for online rhetoric it's easy to so. I've found the Left do this with US culture/politics. I often go back to the UK and am told how 'bad' the US is because of X,Y,Z...a lot of it is nonsense too. With 350 million people you'll find some recorded instance to fit your belief. You're often calling that kind of thing out to, but you're playing that game here I feel.

It's a difficult one. Making migration a central issue is correct, but the Right want to make it THE issue, above all others. It's so pivotal to them in the culture war that they inflate what they can and ignore other factors (cost of living, mental health epidemic, inequality), but that delegitimizes the argument. Londoners know crime is bad, and increasing, but the lived experience is disconnected from the rhetoric, which is too extreme in many instances. Like the Fox news 'No Go Zones' story, this "fracturing" is illusionary, or at least greatly over-stated.

 

[Jetflag]

You're right on calling him out about the characterization of London, Frog. It is nonsense what you are saying @Jetflag, and a very youtube/social media, politicized take.

He didn't call me out, he asked an honest question about my experiences there. its a personal take aswell as an objective take. The stats don't lie m8... recorded crime is up by 31% with violent/knife crime up 40% for example. now: was it better then post wo2? yes. but that doesn't mean its ok for it to get worse therefor. "youtube" (which in my feed is majority cooking video's, trance sets, and windsurf tutorials) has little to do with that.

Been going there since I was 15, lived there from 2012 - 2020, and still go 2x a year when coming back to visit friends. Not only is not awful, but it might be the best big city in the world, and I've been to a lot of them, all over the US, Europe and Asia. NYC is the close second. Both have always been highly-multicultural, and that's hardly changed in 20 years. Safety had never been an issue for me, in fact I find it one of the safest.

yeah but where have you been going/living in London Hens? Honestly?

because I very much doubt it was inside Croydon or Slough. From what I've seen and heard from you (but i might be wrong and feel free to correct me on that) and the insta reels you share.. you visit a lot of "nice" places, because you can financially afford them, And you know what? good on you and why not? But if the majority of your perception of the whole is (allegedly) nothing but the safe/nice positive areas, then of-course your perception, one of 9 million, is going to be coloured towards that because you've (only) been subjected to that.

How much of your time spend in those areas are the, what fox news dubs, no go zones?

I'm with you that migration is a real issue, and it can/does have negative social and economic consequences, but what happens is that it gets over exaggerated in instances in order to feed preconceived beliefs the Right have in the culture war. There's 9 million people in London, so if you want to find anecdotes and package them up for online rhetoric it's easy to so. I've found the Left do this with US culture/politics. I often go back to the UK and am told how 'bad' the US is because of X,Y,Z...a lot of it is nonsense too. With 350 million people you'll find some recorded instance to fit your belief. You're often calling that kind of thing out to, but you're playing that game here I feel.

It's a difficult one. Making migration a central issue is correct, but the Right want to make it THE issue, above all others. It's so pivotal to them in the culture war that they inflate what they can and ignore other factors (cost of living, mental health epidemic, inequality), but that delegitimizes the argument. Londoners know crime is bad, and increasing, but the lived experience is disconnected from the rhetoric, which is too extreme in many instances. Like the Fox news 'No Go Zones' story, this "fracturing" is illusionary, or at least greatly over-stated.

Wait. stop you right there. this wasn't about immigration. it was about stewardship over a city, and whether or not a "socialist model" works or can work. to which my reply has been, it can work on a local level, but if you want that to work properly in an international multiculti city like Rotterdam, New York or London.. you best not start of by causing more division and in-grouping (which you will by default already get if you mix different human cultures together especially over a short period of time). Hence: me providing Aboutaleb as an example of how it can be done in a functional way.

now i'm happy to talk about immigration and its merrits/pitfalls, but that wasn't the crux of my argument or this discussion.

 

[facade1984]

I'm from Birmingham but lived in London for 14 years (crystal palace, south Croydon and Woolwich) before moving out here. I'll always love London and had some of the best years of my life there. No issues from me. Yeah some areas are a bit sketch after hours but you could say that about any city. Can only speak from my own experience but migration was never an issue far as I'm concerned, I've always been surrounded by foreign folks and I've never given it a second thought. Back in London my neighbours were usually Carribbean and Eastern European, out here in Sydney they're mostly Korean. I see that as a thing to be celebrated. My biggest beef with the UK though is how expensive it is, the increases became way more drastic and frequent after COVID. I don't blame immigrants for that, I blame the structure itself. Side bar moving to Australia has been eye opening because politics out here is way more about serving the population than a small group of hyper rich cunts. UK politicians suddenly became very mask off about the level of corruption the last few years. We recently had an election where one of the guys (Peter Dutton) was an admirer of trump and the result was a resounding "no, get fucked", which was beautiful.

Again this is just my experience, but I really believe if we all stopped talking about immigration like it's the worst thing ever people would probably forget about it. The media and politicians need to fuel that fire though.

Btw it's just west Croydon that sucks, most of the rest of it is kinda nice. South Croydon is a decent area

 

[facade1984]

Also I had someone ask me about these so called UK no go zones the other day, had to explain that it was bullshit

 

[Jetflag]

Immigration is fine, I have one for a wife , But IMO it has to be controlled/ within the legal framework at the very least, and with the consent of the local, native populus.

And I will refer anyone who doubts that or thinks that is nonsense and unnecessary towards say: Rodhesia or South Africa before Mandela, or the USA at around 1607. Mass, uncontrolled immigration of farmers who “just want to build a living here bruh” and the local populus and their way of life be damned, eventually, literally.

Humans are group apes, intrinsically tribal and as such, generally speaking, place and people bound. And so when you put large groups of people with completely different backgrounds, customs, intertribal relationships, traditions, upbringings, religious practices etc. next or into each other chat that from one day to the next without reservations, interims or any sort of ifbutmaybe’s you are going to get conflicts. And the more you do that, the more conflicts you get. Up and till the point where that becomes deadly. And if that wasn’t the case the world and our history wouldn’t be full of that. Now there is of course your odd individual exception here and there, but the fact that there is exception proves there is a Rule, it doesn't disprove it.

This is why I think, despite my economic libertarian leanings, that the idea of a fully open borderless liberal John Lennon esq one world utopia is unfortunatly unobtainable and frankly undesirable. Not untill we start say: colonizing other planets and have interstellar trade going on.

A nation state (with border, because otherwise you don't have one) is probably about is a big as you would want things to get in terms of a “large human tribes”. so to speak, Here and now.

My 2 cents on immigration.

 

[Hensmon]

The stats don't lie m8... recorded crime is up by 31% with violent/knife crime up 40% for example.

OK but then to move from this stat to a characterization of a city that is awful, divided, fractured etc is this huge leap, is what I am saying. I don't see how you are getting to this conclusion without some politicized content driving it, considering you've never spent meaningful time in the city. I'm spending weeks to months in London every year for the last 5 years and it's still an amazing place. Remember it's almost 10x the size of Amsterdam. So yes, there are going to be rough boroughs here and there, but 80% of the city is either decent or an absolute banger honestly. And i'm saying out of the 100+ cities I've been to in the world London is contender for best of them all. Yes I am a little bias.

Slough is not London btw, Croyden kind of its own thing too. It's getting rougher for sure (everywhere), no denying it. Cities this size + cost of living crisis + mental health crisis and there's plenty of social decay that's going to emerge, but I'm saying your POV sounds a bit generalized and disconnected from reality. It's like creating evidence to fit a wider political context i.e Mamdanis socialsm is going to destroy NYC like London. That's how it comes across.

 

[Jetflag]

It's like creating evidence to fit a wider political context i.e Mamdanis socialsm is going to destroy NYC like London. That's how it comes across.

I’ll admit I picked London of the top of my head given my latest experience there.. I didn’t thoroughly research it or anything so you lot might be right in that its a poor picked example.

I do see Kahn as a divisive figure who’s identity politics brand of “socialism” has not served London well and isn’t going to in the future. This in combo with say: his clean air initiatives (who basically only benefit the class of people who can afford teslas. ). I see mandami very much going down the same route and think it’s a recipe for disaster long run. It’s way to ideological/ “it could work in theory”. And way less “this is actually how packed humans work in a small area”. If you want to do socialism small scale, fine, but do so in a way that unites (all). Create a common identity as New Yorkers or Londoners or Rotterdammers.. Don't go preferring groups over others for "muh equality" especially if its racial.

I did see Aboutaleb get invited to the White House a couple years back in a newspaper headline to gain insights into how he kept Rotterdam so well together in his period as a mayor so who knows? Hopefully mandami picked that up and drew some lessons from that but I doubt it

We shall see If it’s a consolation: i very much hope im wrong and New York will thrive under him.

 

[LostLegend]

The Slough slander in here is totally uncalled for

 

[Super-Frog Saves Tokyo]

Was not meant to be calling anyone out. Just enjoying hearing the source of some of the claims and knowledge in this thread.

I worked in AIG Croydon, Birmingham, and Fenchurch Street for many years. Croydon is definitely not a no-go area. It has its parts which are less desirable than others, but so has everywhere. Last time I was in Vienna, some areas near the Prater were really rough, and anyone seeing them uninitiated may cry 'ooooh no go area' but in reality, it's just some people with difference life-experience and skin colour from me desperately trying to stay warm and hustle for a few Euros here and there... didn't mean Vienna was less stunning than it is.

 

[Super-Frog Saves Tokyo]

Also, if the NYC mayor wasn't muslim, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Without Googling, would anyone be able to tell me anything about him, his policies, or his political history????