Conservative or liberal (politics)
- Thread starter dmgtz96
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Arnoud
Senior Member
I do find it a bit laughable that the Left went full retard when dear old Floyd (served eight jail terms for various charges - this idiot has his own Wiki page lol) died at the hands of police and are now quiet as a mouse when it comes to the death of Nowak and Ogilvie being cut. The difference of course being the color of their skin. The Left are so fixed on race, sex etc. In other words, because they think 'caucasian' or 'white' people are in charge, killing them is not a problem, cause they are at the root of the problem.
And for both parties, stop saying stuff like 'shocked' 'appalled' 'horrified'. Those words bear no meaning.
The paragraph above could have you think I am some sort a right wing nut, but I do not see myself as such. I would rather have a idyllic world where race and sex do not matter, than a right wing/left wing ruled country/world.
And for both parties, stop saying stuff like 'shocked' 'appalled' 'horrified'. Those words bear no meaning.
The paragraph above could have you think I am some sort a right wing nut, but I do not see myself as such. I would rather have a idyllic world where race and sex do not matter, than a right wing/left wing ruled country/world.
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I don't disagree entirely with your what you wrote Arnoud, but the UK and US are different, and after living in both places I've noticed more racism, or have friends who experienced racism, to a higher degree in the US. That's just an anecdote, but I do feel there is that broader history and context that underpins Floyds murder. It was such a visceral event too, with it being recorded so clearly. An authority figure kneeling on the neck of a man that pleads for his life until he dies is very shocking. I've not watched anything like it, so it should be no surprise to us that such an event would produce a disproportionate response when compared to other shocking events, like with Nowak.
That was also outrageous and tragic, but I think with nuance and critical thinking the differences in coverage can be explained beyond the black and white simplicity proposed by the Right, which is to conclude "A woke world cares about Black people but not White people". There's some of that going on, but its overblown and politicized too much again.
That was also outrageous and tragic, but I think with nuance and critical thinking the differences in coverage can be explained beyond the black and white simplicity proposed by the Right, which is to conclude "A woke world cares about Black people but not White people". There's some of that going on, but its overblown and politicized too much again.
Arnoud
Senior Member
I can not comment on what you have experienced, that may very well be the case, I was not there. I have have been to the USA a couple of times, did not encounter much racism, but I am aware that it does exist. I can understand that the history is different, that being news reports of the police and black citizens.
"I've not watched anything like it, so it should be no surprise to us that such an event would produce a disproportionate response when compared to other shocking events, like with Nowak." I fully disagree.
Was Floyd suspected of committing a crime: Yes (Same as Novak, racism which later turned out to be bogus) (Not sure if Floyd actually used the counterfeit bill he was suspected to have used) - Either way both do not deserve to die because of this.
When the video started, was Floyd on the floor: No (Novak was)
Has he been stabbed: No (Novak was)
Floyd says "I can not breath' - Police officer (who has his knee planted in the neck of Floyd) does not seem to care - Novak stating to police "I've been stabbed" - Police actually telling him 'I don't think you have mate' and then pressures the poor bastard cuffing him.
I can not say that one video is more shocking than the other.
The video of Ogilvie we have seen before. I remember a certain journalist (and others) who were successfully beheaded by a lovely group of people believing in a higher power.
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william byrne
Member
- Apr 26, 2021
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Left and right are both wings of the same bird. In it for themselves. Its all bullshit and divides people . What happened to people having their own thoughts and not having to be slotted into right or left
Jetflag
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- Jul 17, 2020
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No its not..I think at this point trying to down play the damaging effects of so called "well meaning anti-racism" policies, diversity trainings et all, and the general boogieman syndrome of not wanting to be hereticized as such in society and its institutions, is austrich behavior Hens.
Its disturbing, you hate it. fine..but this is not something to be soft-pedalled away anymore. The effects are clearly noticeable for anyone with eyes (dare i say it "woke") Novak is just the most recent example on clear camera of clear bias and victim-hood ranking by the institutions based on race imposed by active policies. Whatever cultural zeitgeist like BLM from the US inevitably flushes over to Europe, wether those context are comparable/ appropriate or no. the Uk's grooming gang scandal where over 2000 native white british children where systematically raped by pakistan grooming gangs is probably the most egregious example of insitutions and people in said institutions turning a blind eye for not wanting to appear racist.
this has to stop. If laws and equal treatment are to mean anything it should be blind and impartial. Equality of outcome be damned.
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LostLegend
Elite Member
What they have in common is bad actors fueling the anger for their own gains.
In both cases, people have a right to be angry and demand answers and of course justice.
However, rioting, looting, attacking innocent people and burning down homes and businesses solves absolutely nothing. If anything, it only deepens the divides and increases the likelihood of serious incidents.
We currently have Tommy 'Tel-Aviv Steve' Robinson, Nigel Farage, Rupert Lowe and Elon Musk trying to incite a fucking race war in the UK , saying "white people have to stand up & fight or die".
Oddly, the Ogilvie attack is the one of the few major violent incidents that gets brought up in these anti-immigration demonstrations that was actually committed by an immigrant. The Murder of Lee Rigby, Southport Stabbings and Henry Nowak murder were all committed by British Citizens.
LostLegend
Elite Member
With the Police, there seems to be yet another undercover expose the endemic racist baked into the UK Police service broad cast every other year.
I've worked in the legal sector over here before and it is a serious problem. The UK police have always had a huge racism problem.
However, instead of just weeding out these people directly and removing them from the job, there's been this blanket roll out of "training courses" instead, which is part of this over-corporatization of how the Police are managed. You can't have office based HR teams micro-manage a 'front line' discipline service like it's a call center and expect it to not have very real world repercussions.
The key is being able to change the culture within the Police without tying their hands behind their back for what must be a very challenging job.
TJY001
Senior Member
- Jul 13, 2020
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I dont trust the police at all, especially since turning a blind eye to the Tories criminal management of COVID / plus the way they dealt with the Sarah Everard response. There is 100% two tier policing, rules for 99% and the same rules dont apply to the 1%.
There is zero question that the police's first reaction to Novak should have been to get Novak properly checked as quickly as possible and not arrest him at that point. The response was poor. Equality is vital. For all.
You do realise though @Jetflag that there are more white groomers out there that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon et al turn a blind eye to as well because they're not Pakistani? YL himself has a significant number of associates who are proven pedophiles. 22 of his EDL pals were.
There are huge number of issues. But the over riding issue which would start to sort the rest of them out is the west need to stop bombing the middle east to high hell and a world wide cap needs to be put in place on the amount of money / assets one person can own. No one needs the ridiculous amount of money which is being hoarded by Musk / Zuckerberg / Bezos et al.
There is zero question that the police's first reaction to Novak should have been to get Novak properly checked as quickly as possible and not arrest him at that point. The response was poor. Equality is vital. For all.
You do realise though @Jetflag that there are more white groomers out there that Stephen Yaxley-Lennon et al turn a blind eye to as well because they're not Pakistani? YL himself has a significant number of associates who are proven pedophiles. 22 of his EDL pals were.
There are huge number of issues. But the over riding issue which would start to sort the rest of them out is the west need to stop bombing the middle east to high hell and a world wide cap needs to be put in place on the amount of money / assets one person can own. No one needs the ridiculous amount of money which is being hoarded by Musk / Zuckerberg / Bezos et al.
Jetflag
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no. this is a false-hood (and an MSM one at that) for several reasons.
1: the "Excuse data" as I like to call it, lumps in dissimilar cases. So ofcourse when you take recorded data from 1960 onward where lik 99% of the island was native white, and then pile in lone offenders, familiy abuse, online abuse and institutional cases (churches schools etc.) then yes, reads like the whites are commiting all the crimes on that front, nice example of p hacking.
But we are talking specifics here, namely 2 tier policing in Mass, organized, community driven targeted child rape gangs who where left to what they pleased with the police being scared of cracking open the multicultural utopia. "british whites" don't do this. when a molester is caught. its procecuted, instead of covered up on the scale the grooming gangs could continue to operate.
2: Its only come out recently that the authorities and media avoided ehnicity date for years due to said fear of "racism" or community tensions, So national Data is too poor for broad claims chat that.. The local evidende (Rotherham, West south Yorkshire etc.) however is clear as day as seen by the casey audit. and confirms disporportional over representation of Asian/Paki heritage men. e.a. Things could potentially be even much worse/much more child rape cases.
3: the per capita data we dó have and despite the aforemenionted "shove it under the rug because i'm a good person" syndrome, clearly shows over representation of foreign nationals (asian immigrants/ non uk citizens) in sexual offence convitions compared to the native population.
your aforementioned argument is a "doekje voor het bloeden"
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Jetflag
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And if I can break character for 1 second and outrage-rant a bit at no-one in particular yeah because this is something that just keeps coming around the bend in these coversations...
I just love, or am somewhat sickened by, can’t decide. How, the minute the systematic Rape of native British Children by paki-grooming gangs is brought up.
Tommy fucking Robinson is being red-herringed under the bus as if there is any moral comparison.. as if that somehow equalizes it… as if, all things said and done he isn’t a fucking hero in all this.
let it sink in once more..
Thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of little children where gangraped by immigrant religious zealots and no-one did anything …
and you lot sat there going: “weeeeh! Tommy wobbinson did a wacism! Muh Musk! ”
like: Are you fucking kidding me? Is your moral compass that skewed? are you that sickeningly propagandised by it all?
#end rant
I just love, or am somewhat sickened by, can’t decide. How, the minute the systematic Rape of native British Children by paki-grooming gangs is brought up.
Tommy fucking Robinson is being red-herringed under the bus as if there is any moral comparison.. as if that somehow equalizes it… as if, all things said and done he isn’t a fucking hero in all this.
let it sink in once more..
Thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of little children where gangraped by immigrant religious zealots and no-one did anything …
and you lot sat there going: “weeeeh! Tommy wobbinson did a wacism! Muh Musk! ”
like: Are you fucking kidding me? Is your moral compass that skewed? are you that sickeningly propagandised by it all?
#end rant
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Arnoud
Senior Member
Some right wing nuts use this tactic also, when confronted with something hurting their believes or cause. Whataboutism. Same on the left. I would like for both parties to acknowledge that not everything is black and white. Not all Whites are responsible for..Blacks are responsible for.. etc. Just stay with the facts and react accordingly.
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Jetflag
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LostLegend
Elite Member
It isn’t an either/or thing, for me at least.
Both things can be true.
You can be appalled by the failure of the state to deal with the grooming gang scandal but also acknowledge the twisted conmen who fan the flames of division, not because they actually care about these kids, but because it makes them money.
Robinson is a prime example. Not a peep from him concerning the 20+ senior members of the EDL (many of them close friends of his) who have been prosecuted for sex offences.
You could say that is whataboutism, except for the fact he was the leader of the EDL.
Jetflag
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I wouldn’t even call this whataboutism, I would call this abject nonsense:
Robinson has repeatedly and publicly condemned child abuse and paedophilia in general terms across interviews, speeches, documentaries, and social media. The reason he doesn’t go specific on that is because he understands this is gotcha-bait from far left groups, like hopenothate, distracting from the topic at hand of the (ongoing) unresolved grooming gang scandal and consequent attempt at coverup.
“but why don’t you focus on the 10+ huaite peepul who have all been caught, trailed and punished and instead focus on the 100+ systematic race rape that is being shoved under the rug Huxley? Are you wasist?”
there is no compare here.
Robinson is working class/rough around the edges who left de EDL after its formation and rise, because it turned into a bunch of generic white supremacists and racists. Which is simply not what he is about. regardless of how badly his detractors love painting him as such.
And the idea that he is somehow in this for the money is absolute hogwash Bren.. Sorry to say so but that’s the most nonsense thing I’ve read all week..
Getting constantly smeared as racist, jailed disproportionately (whilst having a family) for punitive reasons in comparison and having the entire British establishment against you, hating you, and writing hit pieces galore about you which I presume is also what formed your view of him at least in part..because he’s the inconvenient messenger worth shooting..isn’t exactly a great business model to build a career upon from the onset. I would say it’s actually a damned miracle he’s still on his feet..
lesser men would have crumbled.
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Reel came across my feed this morning about what's happening in Belfast, which roughly captures one dimension to this. A Sudanese man stabbed someone a few days ago, riots have broken out. This is claimed as more evidence that migrants represent a disproportionate threat to western society. Their inherited culture (or race) is violent and incompatible with ours.
The caller points out that in the last 6 years, 30 women have been murdered, and some quite brutally, all which done by white locals, and disproportionally from protestant/unionist areas. I don't seem to remember riots for these, and I don't remember a global conversation about their culture. Ask the Northern Irish and they will tell you that all the street and violent gangs are white nationals too.
So I say the Right is lacking perspective, and is radicalized by social media and echo chambers. Most of the issues they raise are real and important e.g grooming gangs, cultural incompatibility, violent crime. welfare state burden etc, but the focus on certain subgroups of migrants for some of these topics is disproportionate, based on data and outcomes. Sometimes it is due to racism, borne from scapegoating. If they really cared about innocents getting murdered then why are they not in the streets for more the more extensive events being perpetrated by the locals?
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p.s @Arnoud I think I made it seem before I had experienced racism myself. I'm white so never happened to me, just observed it first hand a few times.
The caller points out that in the last 6 years, 30 women have been murdered, and some quite brutally, all which done by white locals, and disproportionally from protestant/unionist areas. I don't seem to remember riots for these, and I don't remember a global conversation about their culture. Ask the Northern Irish and they will tell you that all the street and violent gangs are white nationals too.
So I say the Right is lacking perspective, and is radicalized by social media and echo chambers. Most of the issues they raise are real and important e.g grooming gangs, cultural incompatibility, violent crime. welfare state burden etc, but the focus on certain subgroups of migrants for some of these topics is disproportionate, based on data and outcomes. Sometimes it is due to racism, borne from scapegoating. If they really cared about innocents getting murdered then why are they not in the streets for more the more extensive events being perpetrated by the locals?
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p.s @Arnoud I think I made it seem before I had experienced racism myself. I'm white so never happened to me, just observed it first hand a few times.
Jetflag
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what the caller forgot to mention or wasn't aware of is that femcides in particular from 2020 to 2024 saw a large uptick with a disproportion of foreign nationals to population share in ireland. Six murders of in this case women took place in 2015, with all perpetrators being Irish, but in 2022, 4 out of 11 (36%) of the killings of women and girls involved non-nationals, while in 2023, in 3 out of (33%) of the killers/alleged perpetrators were born outside of Ireland. There is an increase in period and its aligned with more foreigners (with a higher perpetration rate) coming in.
further more this isn’t just a local Irish trend. We’ve seen machete slicing and trucks of peace by our so called new batch of “doctors and engineers” to put it sarcastically, in the west go up for some time now.. this isn’t just a Belfast incident.
I think the left is lacking perspective in that sense, that Its clinging to a utopian ideal that all humans regardless of geographical background, cultural heritage, religious conviction etc. are all the same and hence all act the same and by the same set of behaviours in any group or in proximity of any group. Which demonstrably just isn't the case.
As for why you didn't see riots earlier (despite the Irish having had wars over it between groups but that aside, lets focus on nowadays), I think that sort of confirms the above. Despite the disporportionate black on black crime in US cities you also didn't see mass BLM riots till it was a (white) cop doing so. It’s a combination of video footage, build up tensions and zeitgeist. And has, as such, very little to do with left or right as humans across the board engage in this selective- in group preference.
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Jetflag
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further more , its this^point that I find particulary interresting, because its sort of the same reaction the establishment that be gave to this.
Quote from the 30 old Mayor of belfast regarding the incident and the reaction to it: "so many people saw that image, I wish people didn't see that image, but they did"
Now that an interesting reaction isn't it? Because its not that she wishes this didn't happen...its not that she wishes a disabled man being sliced up by a former member of a Sundanese ethic cleansing squad was prevented..its not that she wishes to tackle the problem in the future
oh no......
she wishes you didn't see it..
The problem is intrinsic to their own worldview. their own project.. and it means that the failure of it is baked in and on their hands, and the cope mechanism hence is not to honestly reflect on that and adjust accordingly/ take responsibility... but attack the messenger.
Its that you saw it on evil musk's platform and via Robinson's articles/posts that is the problem here don't you know..not the slicing itself. Thats all part of the thing you just have to get used too.