Covid and vaccines and whatnot

[Jetflag]

I could send you a bunch of links, but you will just say "oh this publication has a liberal bias, therefore not worth considering." We live in different realities, but yours is wrong.

You’re correct in the sense that no, I’m not interested in propaganda pieces, left or right.. I’m interested in truth.


Truth is singular, something is or isn’t factually true without external ideological push.



Racism isn’t, Its in the same realm as Qualia. It is determined by group or individual fiat. And is something deemed to be. Not something that intrinsically is, by its own natura. It doesn't exist in the same way that a Fact does, or Truth does.


As such it’s murky, untrustworthy and has no place being an influence on science or scientific research, full stop. (Same goes for politics by the w, something else we agree on)

I don’t care how racist you think the question of 1+1 is, it’s still 2, and facts don’t care about your feelings. And in that sense no, yours is wrong. Demonstrably.

Go gold-digging for racism somewhere, everywhere else if you (not even you perse. but the movement you represent here) so, so must..

But please, for al you deam holy, stay the f out of Science. Or we’ll all be honking back to the middle ages where people where imprisoned for daring to utter the world was round, before you can say “Galileo”

 

[dmgtz96]

You’re correct in the sense that no, I’m not interested in propaganda pieces, left or right.. I’m interested in truth.


Truth is singular, something is or isn’t factually true without external ideological push.



Racism isn’t, Its in the same realm as Qualia. It is determined by group or individual fiat. And is something deemed to be. Not something that intrinsically is, by its own natura. It doesn't exist in the same way that a Fact does, or Truth does.


As such it’s murky, untrustworthy and has no place being an influence on science or scientific research, full stop. (Same goes for politics by the w, something else we agree on)

Said by an European guy who's never experienced racism
You don't get to define racism as being murky and untrustworthy or having no place in science/scientific research.

I don’t care how racist you think the question of 1+1 is, it’s still 2, and facts don’t care about your feelings. And in that sense no, yours is wrong. Demonstrably.

Go gold-digging for racism somewhere, everywhere else if you (not even you perse. but the movement you represent here) so, so must..

But please, for al you deam holy, stay the f out of Science. Or we’ll all be honking back to the middle ages where people where imprisoned for daring to utter the world was round, before you can say “Galileo”

 

[Hensmon]

I actually think the partisan nature of this might be overstated, or atl east secondary to what is instead somewhat blind faith or bias to the information system you rely upon. Most of my family are conservatives and they believed firmly that the lab leak completely unthinkable (for the first year or two at least). In fact most the generation above mine felt the same, as well about 50% of my liberal friends. It was not a left vs right 1:1 breakdown.

In my eyes what happened is that the 'truth' of the backwards animal cruelty bat-soup eating chinese (which btw is the more racist take than failings of scientists in a lab) was propagated so aggressively and with such confidence by mainstream/legacy media (see BBC) that that orthodoxy Perpetuous Dreamer described is established within society, which is actually a belief system that is hard to deal with if you were to admit they got it horribly wrong, Not helped that the alternative information systems (often social ones) got it right far more quickly. My Dad cant possibly accept that the BBC or The Times or Gaurdian got it so horribly wrong, because then they would have to reconcile all the other things they take for granted and what builds their world view.

 

[dmgtz96]

I actually think the partisan nature of this might be overstated, or atl east secondary to what is instead somewhat blind faith or bias to the information system you rely upon. Most of my family are conservatives and they believed firmly that the lab leak completely unthinkable (for the first year or two at least). In fact most the generation above mine felt the same, as well about 50% of my liberal friends. It was not a left vs right 1:1 breakdown.

In my eyes what happened is that the 'truth' of the backwards animal cruelty bat-soup eating chinese (which btw is the more racist take than failings of scientists in a lab) was propagated so aggressively and with such confidence by mainstream/legacy media (see BBC) that that orthodoxy Perpetuous Dreamer described is established within society, which is actually a belief system that is hard to deal with if you were to admit they got it horribly wrong, Not helped that the alternative information systems (often social ones) got it right far more quickly. My Dad cant possibly accept that the BBC or The Times or Gaurdian got it so horribly wrong, because then they would have to reconcile all the other things they take for granted and what builds their world view.

It hasn't been proven true, though. See for yourself.

While several WIV researchers fell mildly ill in Fall 2019, they experienced a range of symptoms consistent with colds or allergies with accompanying symptoms typically not associated with COVID-19, and some of them were confirmed to have been sick with other illnesses unrelated to COVID-19. While some of these researchers had historically conducted research into animal respiratory viruses, we are unable to confirm if any of them handled live viruses in the work they performed prior to falling ill.

 

[dmgtz96]

In my eyes what happened is that the 'truth' of the backwards animal cruelty bat-soup eating chinese (which btw is the more racist take than failings of scientists in a lab) was propagated so aggressively and with such confidence by mainstream/legacy media (see BBC)

I've seen this comment echo'd by @jetflag and proponents of the lab leak theory, that it's somehow more racist to believe in the natural origin theory because it assumes that the Chinese are "backwards animal cruelty bat-soup eating." That is just projection. Believing in natural origin (which is the most likely cause, and which is precisely what happened in previous pandemics) isn't racist. And, to reiterate, the lab leak theory isn't racist either. It's what you said - assuming that the Chinese are "backwards animal cruelty bat-soup eating", and it's also quite literally everything that the far right did against Asian Americans when the pandemic started.

edit: also, opinions aren't evidence. So far, scientists and certain USA government agencies have had "opinions," but no one has provided real evidence that the lab leak theory is true.

 

[Hensmon]

Fair enough its not 100%, but its looking very likely. And the zoonotic theory actually has no evidence I believe. For lab leak we have;

- Admission from multiple world wide governments that they believe it most likely
- Sachs Paper who conclude it is
- Corona Virus Lab in immediate vicinity of outbreak
- Strong belief from scientific community who observe the furin cleavage site
- Wuhan scientists sick at same time
- Mainstream media slowly changing their tune
- Lancet paper concluding patient 0 was not from Wetmarket.

My issue was never that people did not believe it to be true (or though objectively thats where they would put their money), more that the idea it could be true was so unthinkable. It shows a complete failure in our information systems and bias'

 

[Jetflag]

Said by an European guy who's never experienced racism

You don't get to define racism as being murky and untrustworthy or having no place in science/scientific research.

I got picked on for my hair colour and skin complexion plenty of times little man, <apologies for that.

the difference between you and me is that I’m not the slightest bit hypocritical or self-victimising about it.

and so I will define, compare and place concepts, like racism, as I damn well please, and without your destructive “progressive” framework.

 

[dmgtz96]

Fair enough its not 100%, but its looking very likely. And the zoonotic theory actually has no evidence I believe. For lab leak we have;

- Admission from multiple world wide governments that they believe it most likely
- Sachs Paper who conclude it is
- Corona Virus Lab in immediate vicinity of outbreak
- Strong belief from scientific community who observe the furin cleavage site
- Wuhan scientists sick at same time
- Mainstream media slowly changing their tune
- Lancet paper concluding patient 0 was not from Wetmarket.

My issue was never that people did not believe it to be true (or though objectively thats where they would put their money), more that the idea it could be true was so unthinkable. It shows a complete failure in our information systems and bias'

Sachs is a conspiracy theory nutjob. Experts in Coronavirus and well-renown scientists don't trust him. Mad Scientists

 

[dmgtz96]

I got picked on for my hair colour and skin complexion plenty of times little man,

the difference between you and me is that I’m not the slightest bit hypocritical or self-victimising about it.

and so I will define, compare and place concepts, like racism, as I damn well please, and without your destructive “progressive” framework.

I actually didn't know about that.
Hmm, ok. I've seen conservative people have a similar take, when they were obviously prejudiced against in the past but now later in life they judge those who are trying to advocate against prejudice, which is an interesting dilemma.

Let's step back to ~March 2020, and for the sake of argument let's say Trump was right about the COVID lab leak theory (which hasn't been proven true). You would agree in that it's not OK to be prejudiced against the Chinese and Asian-Americans, correct? Even if the virus did leak from China, there's no reason to turn away customers who just look "Chinese," correct? There's no reason to stare weirdly at a "Chinese"-looking Asian American who just coughed in the subway? There's no reason to beat up a Chinese-looking person just because they look Chinese, even though COVID was leaked from a lab in China. Correct?

 

[Jetflag]

I actually didn't know about that.
Hmm, ok. I've seen conservative people have a similar take, when they were obviously prejudiced against in the past but now later in life they judge those who are trying to advocate against prejudice, which is an interesting dilemma

I’m not judging you for advocating against prejudice or racism. I’m judging you and/or the movement you’re a part of for being:

1 inconsistent, especially on the front of lived experience

2 exhaserbating the problem. By seeing racism everywhere and deeming everything racist no matter how minute or common you make actual racism part of that normalisation

you decrease its severity and you shouldn’t

Let's step back to ~March 2020, and for the sake of argument let's say Trump was right about the COVID lab leak theory (which hasn't been proven true). You would agree in that it's not OK to be prejudiced against the Chinese and Asian-Americans, correct? Even if the virus did leak from China,

Sort of correct. In the early onset of COVID I don’t count cancelling flights or other transports coming in from the virus’s hotspot/origin as being inherently prejudiced.. it’s just common sense in the name of containment. Same as how, when you’re sick in the hospital, you’re not allowed in certain areas or code-rooms

there's no reason to turn away customers who just look "Chinese," correct?

I can think of one good reason: they’ve just landed and midair the ban on Chinese flights took effect. There aren’t any effective tests or treatments available yet..and you not only have yourself but a load of other customers to protect.

it also a reason that has nothing to do with racism or them being Chinese or not.

had the virus originated in say: Minsk, then US restaurant or store owners, especially in the facinity of an international airport would have I think have equally just reason to, for the time being, give my wife that treatment, even though she’s no Belarus

it was screamed down every corner and on every media outlet. “World Wide Pandemic” Like, ofcourse people are going to react scared especially in the beginning of that.. that’s not racism, thats just being human.

There's no reason to stare weirdly at a "Chinese"-looking Asian American who just coughed in the subway?

During the early onset of COVID and given the panic sown there was sufficient reason to “stare wierdly” or with suspicion towards anyone with a cough in a public place.

Heck, I got that stare even when masked up.

There's no reason to beat up a Chinese-looking person just because they look Chinese, even though COVID was leaked from a lab in China. Correct?

This is the only one on which I’ll go Correct, there’s no reason to beat up anyone just for how they look or any other superfluous reason like say: voting behaviour full stop. Especially during a pandemic because the culprits just increased their carrier/ infection rate.

I also don’t think this has anything to do with whether or not the virus was lab-leaked or wet-marketed

assholes who engage in that sort of behaviour don’t need an actual reason. They will make up one, and proceed regardless. Had it not been covid it would have been “hey rice picker, you looked at my sister the wrong way”

 

[Jetflag]

Also, Apologies for calling you a name/names @dmgtz96 We've thusfar had pretty cordial back & forths despite diametrically opposite positions and i'd like to keep it that way.

I've edited the comment accordingly.

 

[dmgtz96]

Also, Apologies for calling you a name/names @dmgtz96 We've thusfar had pretty cordial back & forths despite diametrically opposite positions and i'd like to keep it that way.

I've edited the comment accordingly.

Nah, no worries. I definitely crossed the line with my "European guy" comment

 

[Perpetuous dreamer]

Countries beginning to suspend the vaccine due to safety concerns. Heart inflammation seems to be the driving factor.

Meanwhile, excess deaths continue to be observed world wide. Something (Covid accounted for) is causing the largest surge in deaths seen in the last decade, some as high as 30% above baseline. Shocking numbers and a global pattern.

What could possibly could be the commonality between distant countries, that ignores all seasonality effects?

 

[Contraband]

I’ve seen his reporting before. Sad we have to relly on a random Brit nurse for updates about vaccine health analysis and reporting. Iceland completely banned Moderna vaccine now.

Funny because I seem to remember that all of this was meant to be completely safe, wasn’t it? What kind of YouTube rabbit hole Iceland been hittin up

 

[Hensmon]

Always a bit hesitant to bump this thread, but I do still like to read up on developments of covid. Mostly this is because it was one of the biggest and most complicated challenges of a generation, and there's so many lessons and insights to apply today, that only can be seen years after the fact.

The most fascinating part still for me is the relationships between science, institutions and public discourse, and how truth takes shape and shifts over time, and how public reaction/perception relates to that.

The question that always stuck with me throughout these years is this: how on earth could a lab leak hypothesis become so taboo, despite a corona-virus laboratory (with a history of leaks) being present at the point of origin? How does rational investigation become "baseless conspiracy" in the public domain?

Some new insight on this now. 100's of emails from two top scientific advisors to Fauci have been leaked and it shows a disconnect between their public messaging - "lab leak is a baseless conspiracy" - and their private discussion, where they all believe it to be the most likely scenario. This appears to be due to top down pressure, as opposed to scientific evidence. They discuss deliberately misleading journalists. Motivations for this are unclear, but it's quite shocking given the situation. Eye opening read for anyone interested:

Top Scientists Misled Congress About Covid Origins, Newly Released Emails And Messages Show

 

[Jetflag]

Motivations for this are unclear

I think it’s safe to assume the motivation to be clearly political

 

[Hensmon]

I think it’s safe to assume the motivation to be clearly political

Maybe, but that's not really a specific enough answer, and It looks more complicated.

There were significant grants/funding from US institutions that are tied to gain of function research at the Wuhan lab. This would mean it's possible there is some degree of culpability between the US and the outbreak, either at a private and/or state level. EcoHealth was one such institution and it's president is well documented to have misled and manipulated the narrative around the validity of lab leak hypothesis (search Peter Daszak). Individuals or even the US protecting itself I think is the clear motivation here, and the evidence is quite compelling. They may have no link to the outbreak but just worry about false perception - but they did conspire to change public opinion.

The political part of this is in my mind was just a tool to aid in the deflection. Trump said it came from a lab so made for a good opportunity to turn rational thinking it partisan politics, which then cemented and got out of hand.

None of this helped by a failing media who ran naively in one direction and rarely like making u-turns to correct itself.

 

[Jetflag]

Maybe, but that's not really a specific enough answer, and It looks more complicated.

There were significant grants/funding from US institutions that are tied to gain of function research at the Wuhan lab. This would mean it's possible there is some degree of culpability between the US and the outbreak, either at a private and/or state level. EcoHealth was one such institution and it's president is well documented to have misled and manipulated the narrative around the validity of lab leak hypothesis (search Peter Daszak). Individuals or even the US protecting itself I think is the clear motivation here, and the evidence is quite compelling. They may have no link to the outbreak but just worry about false perception - but they did conspire to change public opinion.

The political part of this is in my mind was just a tool to aid in the deflection. Trump said it came from a lab so made for a good opportunity to turn rational thinking it partisan politics, which then cemented and got out of hand.

None of this helped by a failing media who ran naively in one direction and rarely like making u-turns to correct itself.

Yeah I agree with you on that,

let me refrase it:

part of the motivation was definitely political.

but it could very well have been an afterthought posthoc the outbreak.

never waste a good crisis et all