Covid and vaccines and whatnot

Jetflag

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Jul 17, 2020
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@Hot Tuna, you’re being shown as wrong across all acounts, in real time.

Pfizer/Moderna clinical trial data now available to the public. Their own data clearly states that 1 in 800 vaccinated saw ‘serious adverse events’. Yes, vaccines do have the capacity to cause harm and it’s not a conspiracy as you hoped it to be, it is proven fact, from the vaccine companies own data. Source (see section 3.4 harm-benefit considerations).

Then, last Friday, the UK Health Secretary published its largest risk analysis to date, looking at how many people you have to vaccinate to prevent 1 serious hospitilzation across all age groups. Source

Put simply:

[Age 50-69]
Risk of serious hospitalization from vaccine: 1 in 800
Risk of serious hospitalization from not being vaccinated: 1 in 250,000

Simple risk benefit analysis shows that you are at great risk from vaccinating than from not being vaccinated, and by great magnitudes. For ages 0-50 the number difference gets even more vast (1 in 706,600 for 20-29). This the UK governments own data, cross referenced against the vaccine manufacturers own data. The math is simple. Getting vaccinated carries far more risk than not getting vaccinated, across almost all age groups.


Yup, then again, If you torture Stats long enough, they'll confess to anything.
^
This is something Pfizer.WHO and basically any government did during Covid at its height, but is also a trap that vaccine skeptics are at risk of falling into.

we can say a couple of things for certain post hoc though:

- Out of all the push and grandiose claims about the "miracle" COVID vaccines we ended up with a set of products that are fairly shit, won't prevent you from getting Covid or even dying from it, won't stop you spreading the virus regardless, have side effects and made a few rich people a hell of a lot richer. At best you're going to get another Purdue Pharma court case out of this.

- Forcing vaccines, or any other form of unwanted bodily intrusion onto people is and remains immoral. Regardless of the quality of the research or the product. This is not a Scientific matter, its an Ethical one.

- for most people the (false) idea of being safe or saved is a sine qua non for happiness and they will grow incredibly defensive, firmly putting their fingers in their ears screetching lalalala i can't hear you when you show them clear evidence that thats simply, demonstrably, not the case, and that they in fact are being manipulated/lied to. (this especially when the condition is irreversable, like with vaccinations).

Its useless trying to convince them otherwise, Its not that you may or may not have Truth on your side, its a bit like the old biblical proverb: Don't cast pearls before swine (or in this case, sheep). They've made their choice, you (and I) made ours. Everybody can live with the consequences from their (in) action. And I would suggest leaving it at that 🤷‍♀️
 

dmgtz96

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Jul 13, 2020
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Yup, then again, If you torture Stats long enough, they'll confess to anything.
^
This is something Pfizer.WHO and basically any government did during Covid at its height, but is also a trap that vaccine skeptics are at risk of falling into.

we can say a couple of things for certain post hoc though:

- Out of all the push and grandiose claims about the "miracle" COVID vaccines we ended up with a set of products that are fairly shit, won't prevent you from getting Covid or even dying from it, won't stop you spreading the virus regardless, have side effects and made a few rich people a hell of a lot richer. At best you're going to get another Purdue Pharma court case out of this.

- Forcing vaccines, or any other form of unwanted bodily intrusion onto people is and remains immoral. Regardless of the quality of the research or the product. This is not a Scientific matter, its an Ethical one.

- for most people the (false) idea of being safe or saved is a sine qua non for happiness and they will grow incredibly defensive, firmly putting their fingers in their ears screetching lalalala i can't hear you when you show them clear evidence that thats simply, demonstrably, not the case, and that they in fact are being manipulated/lied to. (this especially when the condition is irreversable, like with vaccinations).

Its useless trying to convince them otherwise, Its not that you may or may not have Truth on your side, its a bit like the old biblical proverb: Don't cast pearls before swine (or in this case, sheep). They've made their choice, you (and I) made ours. Everybody can live with the consequences from their (in) action. And I would suggest leaving it at that 🤷‍♀️
We're on the same boat @jetflag , but how do you consolidate the claim "vaccines are not as effective as people think" when perpetouous dreamers source is telling him *not* to infer anything about the effectiveness of vaccines yet that is the same source he is using to claim that they are not effective?

A few months ago I remember running some math from the Scotland? Government showing a similar conclusion, that the statistics of unvaxx and vaxx being hospitalized were around the same. With the claim in perpetuous dreamers source, it's possible that statistical study was also skewed because, at the time the study was conducted, the unvaxx had already been infected multiple times so they developed natural immunities against COVID.
 
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dmgtz96

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Also, these studies don't capture the harmful effects of long COVID, which is worse when you're unvaxxed. Or, when you *are* hospitalized, who suffers the most: vaxxed or unvaxxed. If you've never gotten COVID, or never got COVID, it's smart to get the jabs since you don't have natural immunity.
 
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Jetflag

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We're on the same boat @jetflag , but how do you consolidate the claim "vaccines are not as effective as people think" when perpetouous dreamers source is telling him *not* to infer anything about the effectiveness of vaccines yet that is the same source he is using to claim that they are not effective?
That wasn’t the claim to consolidate. The claim was the vaccin(s) underperforms when contrasted to what was promised/initially claimed by its proponents, (who by the way keep having to retract and come back on earlier made statements, but that aside).

Its also not based upon @Perpetuous dreamer source which focusses on harm v benefits, not effectiveness. Its based on the slue of press /reports since the crisis started and the (idea of a) vaccine was first introduced.


A few months ago I remember running some math from the Scotland? Government showing a similar conclusion, that the statistics of unvaxx and vaxx being hospitalized were around the same. With the claim in perpetuous dreamers source, it's possible that statistical study was also skewed because, at the time the study was conducted, the unvaxx had already been infected multiple times so they developed natural immunities against COVID.
Could be, but those studies are usually quite carefull when empirically comparing stats/groups. They’re defacto done by the same institutions who produce studies that proponents are sighting/referencing so 🤷‍♀️ But lets say we go with that idea that and the unvaxxed have all been sick before or had their natural immune systems tuned by the masses without vaccine.

-> Then the vaccine still preforms just as well/bad ás the human natural immune system doesn’t it? in which case what’s the difference/point? 😄


Also, these studies don't capture the harmful effects of long COVID, which is worse when you're unvaxxed. Or, when you *are* hospitalized, who suffers the most: vaxxed or unvaxxed.
Except we’ve just established that there’s no significant difference to speak of in hospitalization (or infection) rate for that matter (this isn’t just Scotland by the way, we’re seeing similar results all over the place pop up)

hence, the logical conclusion to draw is, (especially when contrasted with said initial claims like 99% effective! No spreading of the virus! You’re saving the world and can go to parties if your vaxxed and what have you… Ánd the demonization of the people who, for ethical, scientific or personal reasons choose not to get the jab.) That the vaccine is well..rather shiite.🤷‍♀️
Especially when compared to regular vaccins like Polio. It doesn’t live up to its promises or there would have been a significant difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed in terms of death/hospitalizations (like with polio or hepatitis) and that’s not even getting into potential vaccine side effects unaccounted for long term (which as you've pointed out goes for COVID aswell) We simply don't know. its a cointoss at this stage in history.

If you've never gotten COVID, or never got COVID, it's smart to get the jabs since you don't have natural immunity.
based on the results so far that i've seen:

- If you’re a healthy person mid thirties or below with no complication it doesn’t make a relevant difference. Other then maybe you “feel” safer (which you know, reduces stress & all)

however,

- If you’re like my mom a 3 time surviving cancer patient and you have 0 natural resistance/immunity to begin after all that chemo & radiation..then yeah, might aswell take it…something..anything even if it underperforms in the final analysis since it’s a net positive given the situation and well, that’s all you’ve got.

So yeah. for the ones with a compromised immune system or any similar condition I'd say its good that there is a vaccin available.
 
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dmgtz96

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That wasn’t the claim to consolidate. The claim was the vaccin(s) underperforms when contrasted to what was promised/initially claimed by its proponents, (who by the way keep having to retract and come back on earlier made statements, but that aside).

Its also not based upon @Perpetuous dreamer source which focusses on harm v benefits, not effectiveness. Its based on the slue of press /reports since the crisis started and the (idea of a) vaccine was first introduced.



Could be, but those studies are usually quite carefull when empirically comparing stats/groups. They’re defacto done by the same institutions who produce studies that proponents are sighting/referencing so 🤷‍♀️ But lets say we go with that idea that and the unvaxxed have all been sick before or had their natural immune systems tuned by the masses without vaccine.

-> Then the vaccine still preforms just as well/bad ás the human natural immune system doesn’t it? in which case what’s the difference/point? 😄



Except we’ve just established that there’s no significant difference to speak of in hospitalization (or infection) rate for that matter (this isn’t just Scotland by the way, we’re seeing similar results all over the place pop up)

hence, the logical conclusion to draw is, (especially when contrasted with said initial claims like 99% effective! No spreading of the virus! You’re saving the world and can go to parties if your vaxxed and what have you… Ánd the demonization of the people who, for ethical, scientific or personal reasons choose not to get the jab.) That the vaccine is well..rather shiite.🤷‍♀️
Especially when compared to regular vaccins like Polio. It doesn’t live up to its promises or there would have been a significant difference between vaxxed and unvaxxed in terms of death/hospitalizations (like with polio or hepatitis) and that’s not even getting into potential vaccine side effects unaccounted for long term (which as you've pointed out goes for COVID aswell) We simply don't know. its a cointoss at this stage in history.


based on the results so far that i've seen:

- If you’re a healthy person mid thirties or below with no complication it doesn’t make a relevant difference. Other then maybe you “feel” safer (which you know, reduces stress & all)

however,

- If you’re like my mom a 3 time surviving cancer patient and you have 0 natural resistance/immunity to begin after all that chemo & radiation..then yeah, might aswell take it…something..anything even if it underperforms in the final analysis since it’s a net positive given the situation and well, that’s all you’ve got.

So yeah. for the ones with a compromised immune system or any similar condition I'd say its good that there is a vaccin available.
It's less about infection rate and more about the effects of COVID once you inevitably get it. If the vaccine makes the effects feel not as bad as unvaxx'd, then the vaccine is worth it. You don't really know what the effects of COVID will be once you get it, so anything that can help prevent long COVID symptoms or potential death should be encouraged.
 
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Jetflag

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It's less about infection rate and more about the effects of COVID once you inevitably get it. If the vaccine makes the effects feel not as bad as unvaxx'd, then the vaccine is worth it. You don't really know what the effects of COVID will be once you get it, so anything that can help prevent long COVID symptoms or potential death should be encouraged.
right 😄

so now its not anymore about wether the vaccine was "a 100% effective" "will prevent your fellow man from getting sick" "will protect the hospitals" and "will save your life"

no, now its about: "you'll get it, you'll infect others with it, but you'll perhaps suffer a bit less".

do you see why I think its rather unpreformative yet? you could make your exact argument about ibuprofen. 🤷‍♀️


And by all means right: totally onboard with you in the sense that: Take Ibuprofen, Or take a pfizer shot if you feel like it, Just sell it for what it is, a painkiller/ inflamation symptom reducer
 
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dmgtz96

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right 😄

so now its not anymore about wether the vaccine was "a 100% effective" "will prevent your fellow man from getting sick" "will protect the hospitals" and "will save your life"

no, now its about: "you'll get it, you'll infect others with it, but you'll perhaps suffer a bit less".

do you see why I think its rather unpreformative yet? you could make your exact argument about ibuprofen. 🤷‍♀️


And by all means right: totally onboard with you in the sense that: Take Ibuprofen, Or take a pfizer shot if you feel like it, Just sell it for what it is, a painkiller/ inflamation symptom reducer
the data points otherwise, so yes, it's no longer about that stuff. The virus also mutated. The vaccine was probably great against the first variants, but when Omicron rolled by they were not as effective in preventing the spread.

honestly, as long as the vaccines are effective in preventing long COVID symptoms, everyone should take them. Because QOL with long COVID is going to be much worse.
 

Jetflag

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As long as the vaccines are (somewhat) effective in preventing long COVID symptoms everyone CAN take them, if they like.

nobody SHOULD take them, if they do not desire to do so for personal, religious, scientific or otherwise reasons.
 
Oct 7, 2022
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As long as the vaccines are (somewhat) effective in preventing long COVID symptoms everyone CAN take them, if they like.

nobody SHOULD take them, if they do not desire to do so for personal, religious, scientific or otherwise reasons.
... and thats exactly what went awfully wrong. I (as a healthy young guy) never felt the need to take it but I had too. Germans were tricking: You didnt need to take it but basically you had because your life would consist of just being home and thats it. Oh and buying food so you can survive. So basically you had to take it. If I would decline it, it would basically cost me my job ... There is nothing wrong with vaccs. I have a lot of them because I lived in china, you needed some special stuff for this and never had a single problem with it but once the goverment is basically forcing you (of course they are not on the paper) I do have a problem. The sad thing is also that this whole stuff is now just left aside and no one puts the effort in managing what could go better in the next pandemic. Generally seen the society was split extremely and even I got told by people "well if you wanna die go ahead and refuse it" ... completely sick to think about it. Hope stuff like this will never ever happen again but I guess no one really learned from the mistakes.
 

Jetflag

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... and thats exactly what went awfully wrong. I (as a healthy young guy) never felt the need to take it but I had too. Germans were tricking: You didnt need to take it but basically you had because your life would consist of just being home and thats it. Oh and buying food so you can survive. So basically you had to take it. If I would decline it, it would basically cost me my job ... There is nothing wrong with vaccs. I have a lot of them because I lived in china, you needed some special stuff for this and never had a single problem with it but once the goverment is basically forcing you (of course they are not on the paper) I do have a problem. The sad thing is also that this whole stuff is now just left aside and no one puts the effort in managing what could go better in the next pandemic. Generally seen the society was split extremely and even I got told by people "well if you wanna die go ahead and refuse it" ... completely sick to think about it. Hope stuff like this will never ever happen again but I guess no one really learned from the mistakes.
sorry to hear that man, if its a consolation, you're not alone and at the very least it generated quite a large global awareness (at least from what I can decern) with a lot of people on how easily your "nice cozy democratic western first world government" will turn on you with a silk-covered iron fist when the chips are down. Now you won't find me complimenting the Dutch government often but at the very least they didn't force the needle into people without their consent (though they did heavily propagandize it but hey ho, thats fair game i guess, they're entitled to do that) the way other governments did, which, and I know this might upset peoples fiefies but I don't give a crap, is tantamount to rape. Individual Bodily Autonomy = Sacrosanct.

Me and misses moved our family to a new house last year, and part of the set of reasons was to be more independent in terms of food, energy, shelter etc. and with a strong, fairly independend "doe normaal" community around it for support in case something like this goes down in the future, which it will. Never waste a good crisis.
 
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dmgtz96

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Jul 13, 2020
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... and thats exactly what went awfully wrong. I (as a healthy young guy) never felt the need to take it but I had too. Germans were tricking: You didnt need to take it but basically you had because your life would consist of just being home and thats it. Oh and buying food so you can survive. So basically you had to take it. If I would decline it, it would basically cost me my job ... There is nothing wrong with vaccs. I have a lot of them because I lived in china, you needed some special stuff for this and never had a single problem with it but once the goverment is basically forcing you (of course they are not on the paper) I do have a problem. The sad thing is also that this whole stuff is now just left aside and no one puts the effort in managing what could go better in the next pandemic. Generally seen the society was split extremely and even I got told by people "well if you wanna die go ahead and refuse it" ... completely sick to think about it. Hope stuff like this will never ever happen again but I guess no one really learned from the mistakes.
In Germany, nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to take it. If you didn't want to take it, that's fine. Businesses just probably wouldn't want to let you in, but that's their right just as it is your right to remain unvaccinated. The same goes for jobs. Even if you worked for one of those very good German union jobs, you would need to find a different employer. This happened to a lot of American unvaxx as well, who lost full pensions and six figure jobs because they remained unvaxx. I don't feel bad for them.

You as a young healthy guy feeling like you didn't need to take the vaccine is just hubris. Getting COVID without being vaccinated would have screwed your health completely.
 

dmgtz96

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sorry to hear that man, if its a consolation, you're not alone and at the very least it generated quite a large global awareness (at least from what I can decern) with a lot of people on how easily your "nice cozy democratic western first world government" will turn on you with a silk-covered iron fist when the chips are down. Now you won't find me complimenting the Dutch government often but at the very least they didn't force the needle into people without their consent (though they did heavily propagandize it but hey ho, thats fair game i guess, they're entitled to do that) the way other governments did, which, and I know this might upset peoples fiefies but I don't give a crap, is tantamount to rape. Individual Bodily Autonomy = Sacrosanct.
This is a lie. You're entitled to remain unvaccinated for however long you'd like. There's your body autonomy. You're not entitled to keep your job or have free access to local businesses because you're unvaccinated.

As long as the vaccines are (somewhat) effective in preventing long COVID symptoms everyone CAN take them, if they like.

nobody SHOULD take them, if they do not desire to do so for personal, religious, scientific or otherwise reasons.
I really want to know which religion specifically prevents its constituents from taking the COVID vaccine.
 
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Jetflag

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This is a lie. You're entitled to remain unvaccinated for however long you'd like. There's your body autonomy. You're not entitled to keep your job or have free access to local businesses because you're unvaccinated.
In China and In Germany it was take the jab or we'll lock you up in your own house and starve you to death. Also. you seem to imply as if local business in germany or China had any free choice or say in the matter of allowing unjabbed in or not, Newsflash: they didn't.

by this logic every single maffia syndicate ever did nothing wrong because well.. it was their "free" choice that they refused "protection" and there was no pressure or force applied at all nod nod wink wink.

If that's genuinly the position you're willing to adopt, then you have lost any and all moral high ground in your ad nauseum tantrums about women's rights, bodily autonomy/abortion and government systems disadvantaging/oppressing minorities and are quite frankly, for all your fake sactimonious preachings on said topics on this forum.incredibly hostile and bigoted towards people like @Perpetuous dreamer and @unitedtrancedivision who're just not fully inside your authoritarian world view on vaccinations.

Sorry to say so.

why you choose to be this way is beyond me. What did they or anyone who didn't get the jab ever do to you to deserve that? Did they prevent you from getting the shot or something?

There was good reason for measures like 1,5 m distance, wash your hands ,mask up and ventilate/filter. but it most certainly didn’t warranted the lies, pressure, demonization and treatment/bigotery that the unvaxxed received. We've already established that he vaccin didn't stop you from spreading or protected you from getting COVID. And if pharmaceutical companies (vector vaccine one’s particular) where infact sloppy on this (which there’s now reasonable assumption that they where) they could very well end up with Purdue in a couple of years.
I really want to know which religion specifically prevents its constituents from taking the COVID vaccine.
any religious adherent from any religion where a higher deity or power is involved in which the adherent in question's live is in said deity's hands.
 
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Oct 7, 2022
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In Germany it was take the jab or we'll lock you up in your own house and starve you to death.
Well a bit harsh haha I dont think our goverment would have let us starve to death but yeah I get your argument. They were extremely radical and thats just not something good. Especially because we acctually have our laws and rights. I even think that if they didnt put such a big pressure behind the vax many more would have just taken it. The should have educated the people here way more.
 
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Jetflag

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Well a bit harsh haha I dont think our goverment would have let us starve to death but yeah I get your argument. They were extremely radical and thats just not something good. Especially because we acctually have our laws and rights. I even think that if they didnt put such a big pressure behind the vax many more would have just taken it. The should have educated the people here way more.
I have family in Hamburg and neither they nor I haveseen the German government adress the food issue at all to be honest. And people have died of starvation under lockdown policies in China among which.

I agree with the education and human rights protection thing. Also in the sense that the knee jerk reaction by many governments also damaged the reputation of science and vaccine's in particular longrun. Which I think might actually be the most destructive side effect of the poor lockdown/mandate policies.
 

dmgtz96

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If that's genuinly the position you're willing to adopt, then you have lost any and all moral high ground in your ad nauseum tantrums about women's rights, bodily autonomy/abortion and government systems disadvantaging/oppressing minorities and are quite frankly, for all your fake sactimonious preachings on said topics on this forum.incredibly hostile and bigoted towards people like @Perpetuous dreamer and @unitedtrancedivision who're just not fully inside your authoritarian world view on vaccinations.

Sorry to say so.

why you choose to be this way is beyond me. What did they or anyone who didn't get the jab ever do to you to deserve that? Did they prevent you from getting the shot or something?
In the US, race and sex are protected classes. You can't discriminate against them.

Vaccination status, just like political ideology, is not.
 

Jetflag

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In the US, race and sex are protected classes. You can't discriminate against them.

Vaccination status, just like political ideology, is not.
ok, by that logic: free pass to discriminate against gender expressions in the US since they're not an expression of Sex.

gottit.


note* I never asked what the US law said, I asked why you personally, think is therefor a moral act to hate on them.
 

dmgtz96

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ok, by that logic: free pass to discriminate against gender expressions in the US since they're not an expression of Sex.

gottit.


note* I never asked what the US law said, I asked why you personally, think is therefor a moral act to hate on them.
TIL gender expression/transgender status has been protected since 2020

Any response to your question is just pointing out my hypocrisy, but the fact is I agree with the laws of the land. Since there are no protections for unvaxx, there is no such thing as "discrimination against the unvaccinated"
 

Jetflag

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Any response to your question is just pointing out my hypocrisy,
then let me rephrase by asking why you choose to remain such a hypocrite? When you could be ethically consistent?

TIL gender expression/transgender status has been protected since 2020
so if the laws of the land where to change in say: the next couple of years after the elections, you would be all for that and consequently against discrimination of the unvaxxinated?
 

dmgtz96

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then let me rephrase by asking why you choose to remain such a hypocrite? When you could be ethically consistent?


so if the laws of the land where to change in say: the next couple of years after the elections, you would be all for that and consequently against discrimination of the unvaxxinated?
Because gender, sex, and race are immutable traits. Getting vaccinated or remaining unvaccinated is a choice.