Percussion question Old Trance/Prog (Trance) records

[Progrez]

I want to know how the trance guys used to produce like Galen Behr I don't want the current stuff it sounds too robotic and templated and that a lazy producer has made it.

I assume they used to 808 and 909?

 

[erickUO]

I doubt it's 808 or 909. My guess is loops (cutted and rearranged) or samples from old packs, or he just sampled them from other tracks.

 

[Magdelayna]

They just put more effort into percs....you dont need any special tools.

 

[Progrez]

They just put more effort into percs....you dont need any special tools.

What did they exactly? As you know that the older stuff had amazing catchy percussion and didn't sound as beefy. I have not heard any modern day track produce stuff like that. Even the stuff on Activa's label.

 

[Magdelayna]

What did they exactly? As you know that the older stuff had amazing catchy percussion and didn't sound as beefy. I have not heard any modern day track produce stuff like that. Even the stuff on Activa's label.

Subtle congas and bongos etc that add a groove...and more 'off beat' elements..

 

[Hensmon]

They just put more effort into percs....you dont need any special tools.

I just dont believe this. It's not a coincidence that Enigma State uses hardware and his percs sound a level above everyone else. Even with the latest Brandt release on our label he used hardware. I could tell before he even told me. There's no way that the lack of good sounding percussion today is just from lack of effort from producers. In the past 9/10 producers had good sounding percs, today it is 1/10. Something must have changed, it can't just be effort.

 

[Magdelayna]

I just dont believe this. It's not a coincidence that Enigma State uses hardware and his percs sound a level above everyone else. Even with the latest Brandt release on our label he used hardware. I could tell before he even told me. There's no way that the lack of good sounding percussion today is just from lack of effort from producers. In the past 9/10 producers had good sounding percs, today it is 1/10. Something must have changed, it can't just be effort.

Maybe you think hardware percs sound better than software percs? I dont see a difference myself - a lot of the '99 classics had simple percs like single hi hats. I personally loved the tribal percussions of Praha and Marco V.

 

[Magdelayna]

In the past 9/10 producers had good sounding percs, today it is 1/10. Something must have changed, it can't just be effort.

Maybe they are using 'cheap' producer sample packs. Ive used Activa's percussion loops in the past and they sound great.

This track of mine has them :

 

[Hensmon]

Maybe you think hardware percs sound better than software percs? I dont see a difference myself

When I hear your track I know without a doubt in my mind it is produced past the year 2010. I'm not saying it sounds bad, but you must surely hear the differences between this if it was put next to a track from 2002?

The point is, as much as Activa's loops sound very good in terms of modern design, it still is noticeably different from examples using hardware in the past. I can enjoy modern percussions but my personal opinion is that its still a step down because its too clinical, too perfect and just has lost something hard that is hard to put into words. It's subtle but significant, and as much as were told its not the tools, I am at a loss to think of any other explanation as to why 90% of producers fail to recreate that sound. I don't believe its from a lack of wanting.

 

[Magdelayna]

When I hear your track I know without a doubt in my mind it is produced past the year 2010. I'm not saying it sounds bad, but you must surely hear the differences between this if it was put next to a track from 2002?

The point is, as much as Activa's loops sound very good in terms of modern design, it still is noticeably different from examples using hardware in the past. I can enjoy modern percussions but my personal opinion is that its still a step down because its too clinical, too perfect and just has lost something hard that is hard to put into words. It's subtle but significant, and as much as were told its not the tools, I am at a loss to think of any other explanation as to why 90% of producers fail to recreate that sound. I don't believe its from a lack of wanting.

Are you talking about actual 'sound quality' of percs though - then yes,hardware percs will sound crisper and punchier than software percs. But my interpretation of this thread as that we are actually talking about 'creativeness' in percs - thats why i mentioned the tribal sound. Not many producers have a 'groove' in their tracks anymore.

 

[Hensmon]

I think it's both. "Robotic" meaning the actual sound design is too sterile or without warmth/richness. "Templated" meaning basic and lacking interesting rhythm or execution. I'm mostly talking about the former in my comments, but both are equal issue, although the sound design for me is a bigger issue. I'm not sure if crisp or punchy is the words I would use, more human, warm, real, balanced.

For what its worth I think groove is only in part related to percussion, and more its a combo of the percs, bass and FX coming together that as a whole make the groove and interesting rhythmn.

 

[Magdelayna]

I think it's both. "Robotic" meaning the actual sound design is too sterile or without warmth/richness. "Templated" meaning basic and lacking interesting rhythm or execution. I'm mostly talking about the former in my comments, but both are equal issue, although the sound design for me is a bigger issue. I'm not sure if crisp or punchy is the words I would use, more human, warm, real, balanced.

For what its worth I think groove is only in part related to percussion, and more its a combo of the percs, bass and FX coming together that as a whole make the groove and interesting rhythmn.

Im not sure what you mean when you say 'warmth' - theres only so much you can do with a hi hat or clap.

I remember Gabriel & Dresden - Tracking Treasure Down - they used real life recorded hand claps - you cant get more 'human' than that hehe.

 

[Progrez]

Are you talking about actual 'sound quality' of percs though - then yes,hardware percs will sound crisper and punchier than software percs. But my interpretation of this thread as that we are actually talking about 'creativeness' in percs - thats why i mentioned the tribal sound. Not many producers have a 'groove' in their tracks anymore.

I was also referring to the sound quality too! well it's not about 'punchier' but crisper for sure and those subtle sounds changes along with the rhythm and harmony you can hear them and they make a huge difference and old trance is a testament of that no matter which bpm it is created.

I prefer the sounds they used in their older productions just listen to Fire & Ice or old Ferry Corsten or old JS16, Dance 2 Trance and Darude tracks.

 

[erickUO]

From Galen Behr's website via Wayback Machine

Producing:​

Fully airconditioned and soundproof studio. Main PC: o Intel Core Duo 2 E6600 o 2 GB DDR2-800 o 3x 250 GB SATA o 2x CTX 17" Flatscreen Second PC: o Athlon 64 3400+ o 1,5 GB RAM o 1x 80, 2x 200 GB SATA o 2x 160 GB External Harddisk PCs are linked through Gigabit LAN for VST teleporting purposes. Hardware: o M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 o Phonic P6a Monitors o Behringer BCF2000 Midi Controller o Phonic MM1705a Mixer o Midisport 2x4 Midi Interface o Roland JP-8000 o Access Virus C o Yamaha DJX MIDI Keyboard Software: o Cubase SX 3.0 o Various softsynths and plugins​

---

On a side note, Stylus RMX used to be popular back in the days, but no demo version and quite pricey

Check 2:22

Then listen to this

 

[Progrez]

From Galen Behr's website via Wayback Machine

Producing:​

Fully airconditioned and soundproof studio. Main PC: o Intel Core Duo 2 E6600 o 2 GB DDR2-800 o 3x 250 GB SATA o 2x CTX 17" Flatscreen Second PC: o Athlon 64 3400+ o 1,5 GB RAM o 1x 80, 2x 200 GB SATA o 2x 160 GB External Harddisk PCs are linked through Gigabit LAN for VST teleporting purposes. Hardware: o M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 o Phonic P6a Monitors o Behringer BCF2000 Midi Controller o Phonic MM1705a Mixer o Midisport 2x4 Midi Interface o Roland JP-8000 o Access Virus C o Yamaha DJX MIDI Keyboard Software: o Cubase SX 3.0 o Various softsynths and plugins​

---

On a side note, Stylus RMX used to be popular back in the days, but no demo version and quite pricey

Check 2:22

Then listen to this

Armin and Airwave also used that sound in their tacks check out the Rising Star - Star Theme from the boundaries of imaginations.

Maybe they are using 'cheap' producer sample packs. Ive used Activa's percussion loops in the past and they sound great.

This track of mine has them :

Dude you have to make more of this and this is heaps better than your ambient stuff. This is kind of stuff I want to recreate as well and the chords and melodies had more depth in them. The older stuff had melodies and chords which were longer or stronger as well and they had an addictive quality about them. I don't know they sound like they were a whole quarter note or longer like a 1/4 or 1/2 note or even semibreve chords/melody compared to the melodies of modern dance or lack (none really) thereof because it gets drowned in the bass or soundscapes or over compressed kick drums and loud as well. It's almost as if the track itself has a slower harmonic rhythm whilst modern day trance has ever 1/16th note. I could be wrong here though.

 

[Archon]

There is no silver bullet. It's much better to try to understand and play around with rhythm than any tool you use. At the beginning an 808 (or its digital clone) is useless to a producer. You're just going to get a different sound, that's all.

 

[Jetflag]

M-Audio Audiophile 24/96

Huh, whaddayaknow. My old soundcard

on the topic of “warmth” “richness” and “originality”

back in the day when you had assembled a percussion loop made from loose samples or drumkits, you would usually export that as a wav via said “amazing” 32/16 bit hardware and that was it, since you couldn’t layer stems ad nauseum due to hardware constraints.

in fact the more ££ studios often had 2 pc’s. One for midi/ synth creative shenanigans and one for mixing/ arranging audio (that one usually had a ton of memory)

the advantage of this approach as to the polished today stuff is you could not infinitly go back and “fix” stuff. Making the sounds, mixes and masters often more rough and edgy.


@Hensmon @Progrez Concerning warmth in percussion, could you give me a (brutally!) honest opinion regarding that on say. This:


..which was recorded on said soundcard back in the day.

 

[Progrez]

Huh, whaddayaknow. My old soundcard

on the topic of “warmth” “richness” and “originality”

back in the day when you had assembled a percussion loop made from loose samples or drumkits, you would usually export that as a wav via said “amazing” 32/16 bit hardware and that was it, since you couldn’t layer stems ad nauseum due to hardware constraints.

in fact the more ££ studios often had 2 pc’s. One for midi/ synth creative shenanigans and one for mixing/ arranging audio (that one usually had a ton of memory)

the advantage of this approach as to the polished today stuff is you could not infinitly go back and “fix” stuff. Making the sounds, mixes and masters often more rough and edgy.


@Hensmon @Progrez Concerning warmth in percussion, could you give me a (brutally!) honest opinion regarding that on say. This:


..which was recorded on said soundcard back in the day.

Sounds like there is some overlap in some of the beats/percussion above the pads which does sound a bit off and nice pads but not really trance more ambient/chillout stuff.

 

[tranceissomewhatalive]

older trance tracks, especially slower ones, often used some conga/bongo percussion samples or loops that are almost extinct in the nowadays production, that's one major difference that comes to mind

 

[Jetflag]

Sounds like there is some overlap in some of the beats/percussion above the pads which does sound a bit off and nice pads but not really trance more ambient/chillout stuff.

Ya I know it’s not trance lol, I meant specifically regarding “warmth” and percussion