Percussion question Old Trance/Prog (Trance) records

[LostLegend]

I think a lot of it comes down to the complexity of modern production techniques (sometimes an over-complexity) rather than the samples themselves not being of an as high quality (The opposite is probably true tbh)

Modern production doesn't have a lot of the limitations of that classic era trance due to the power of modern computing. A lot of professional modern trance productions have an ungodly amount of channels and parts made from multiple layers, as a result headroom is at a premium and you can end up shaving off frequencies, in this case possibly from your lower mid percussion channels to give room to other elements in the track, which can lead to your overall percussion sounding 'thin'

Not saying this is the complete story but would go a fair way to explaining it.

I am interested in those claiming that 'analogue percussion' sounds better have any ideas as to why they think that is the reason?
'Analogue' feels like one of those buzzwords that people throw around and think makes things sound inherently better without any real idea what the difference between digital and analogue even is on a base level.
What do you even mean by 'analogue percussion'? Because those words by themselves could mean wildly different things to different types of musicians.

 

[Magdelayna]

I think a lot of it comes down to the complexity of modern production techniques (sometimes an over-complexity) rather than the samples themselves not being of an as high quality (The opposite is probably true tbh)

Modern production doesn't have a lot of the limitations of that classic era trance due to the power of modern computing. A lot of professional modern trance productions have an ungodly amount of channels and parts made from multiple layers, as a result headroom is at a premium and you can end up shaving off frequencies, in this case possibly from your lower mid percussion channels to give room to other elements in the track, which can lead to your overall percussion sounding 'thin'

Not saying this is the complete story but would go a fair way to explaining it.

I am interested in those claiming that 'analogue percussion' sounds better have any ideas as to why they think that is the reason?
'Analogue' feels like one of those buzzwords that people throw around and think makes things sound inherently better without any real idea what the difference between digital and analogue even is on a base level.
What do you even mean by 'analogue percussion'? Because those words by themselves could mean wildly different things to different types of musicians.

Exactly,i dont think 'analog' or 'hardware' percussion sounds better than software - thats the point i was trying to make. We are talking about hi hats and cymbals here.

I do agree with your theory that modern tracks have SO many channels,they take the headroom away from the percs - that could explain why older classic tracks percs sound cleaner and crisper,they just had a lot less elements in them - i think thats what the OP is getting confused about.

 

[Progrez]

I think a lot of it comes down to the complexity of modern production techniques (sometimes an over-complexity) rather than the samples themselves not being of an as high quality (The opposite is probably true tbh)

Modern production doesn't have a lot of the limitations of that classic era trance due to the power of modern computing. A lot of professional modern trance productions have an ungodly amount of channels and parts made from multiple layers, as a result headroom is at a premium and you can end up shaving off frequencies, in this case possibly from your lower mid percussion channels to give room to other elements in the track, which can lead to your overall percussion sounding 'thin'

Not saying this is the complete story but would go a fair way to explaining it.

I am interested in those claiming that 'analogue percussion' sounds better have any ideas as to why they think that is the reason?
'Analogue' feels like one of those buzzwords that people throw around and think makes things sound inherently better without any real idea what the difference between digital and analogue even is on a base level.
What do you even mean by 'analogue percussion'? Because those words by themselves could mean wildly different things to different types of musicians.

They just feel warmer and That's why I am asking here because I have no idea whatever the percussions they used in a lot older trance.

 

[Magdelayna]

They just feel warmer and That's why I am asking here because I have no idea whatever the percussions they used in a lot older trance. Even the Drum & bass stuff sounded so warm like this stuff.

You can replicate all that in software - that percussion has basically a bit of reverb added to it....

 

[LostLegend]

They just feel warmer and That's why I am asking here because I have no idea whatever the percussions they used in a lot older trance.

The majority of what they were using in terms of sample banks and the presets built into certain drum machines (and perc synth patches) are all available today.
The common 808/909 sounds are everywhere (I even have an old legacy sample pack with samples from these machines fed through hardware distortion and saturation units.)
They sound nice, but nothing out of the ordinary.

There is the overall build-up of noise and saturation that occurs through the process of creating older records to take into account. The chain linking your analogue model drum machines, through an analogue compressor, to an analogue mixing desk, then onto DAT and finally pressed into vinyl records is going to add a lot of saturation/small levels of distortion and build ups of that background noise/ hiss from physical gear.
Not to mention the very act of playing a vinyl record adds that pop/crackle noise-floor.

I often think the supposed ‘warmth’ people talk about analogue recordings have is down to the accumulation of all these subtle imperfections.

But does this make your percussion sound thicker? Probably not in and of itself.

You could also take into account sampling culture today and the introduction of more digital based sample processing and lower memory constraints.

If for example you were to sample a drum loop from a vinyl record, then load it into a hardware sampler, maybe drop the bit-rate and convert it to mono for a smaller file size (due to the memory limitations of older gear at the time) that’s going to have an effect on the final sound. Not to mention if the record you’ve sampled it from was also using a loop sampled and put through the same process, you are then getting this greater build up of artefacts within the sound. It’s how you end up with those ‘dusty’ sounding drums on old breakbeat and hip hop records.

So there’s probably not a singular cause, but maybe a combination of modern processing techniques and the ‘cleaner’ sound of digital recording.

You can replicate the sound though with modern plugins, if you have the time and patience to really dive into the sound design aspect of processing.

I used some of those techniques for the drums on my track ‘Our New Horizon’
There’s some classic breaks mixed in there (The Sesame Street Break and the shaker loop from Lynne Collins ‘Think’) which I made mono and downsampled to give that vintage feel, with some more modern one shot samples over the top as ear candy. The whole drum channel is then going through an analogue model saturator and compressor.


As I said, there’s probably not a singular answer between changing production techniques, the need for more headroom and changing tastes in terms of final mixdowns.

 

[LostLegend]

It’s a pity Sadowick doesn’t make content any more, ‘cause he was a goldmine for this type of stuff. He explains why the drums from older tracks sound like they do better than I can.

 

[Progrez]

It’s a pity Sadowick doesn’t make content any more, ‘cause he was a goldmine for this type of stuff. He explains why the drums from older tracks sound like they do better than I can.

Many thank you for that I will check him out. I also follow this guy as well. Also, I want to point out I am taking it seriously just like my piano playing and composing but I am not trying to make it out for money it's not that I am not attaching value either to the craft I truly want to make them for the thrill and curiosity. I love using Darude and old Airwave as reference material and Ferry Corsten too.

Classic Trance Tips

I’m Ronele - a lifelong producer with a few official releases under my belt. I believe the best is yet to come and so I'm on a mission to bring the emotion and soul back to trance. Modern trance lost the plot. It’s overprocessed, formulaic, and hollow. But it wasn’t always like that. In the...

www.youtube.com

 

[Hensmon]

on the topic of “warmth” “richness” and “originality”

I probably shouldn't have used the word warmth for describing percs. Whatever the opposite of clinical/sterile is. I know its hard to define. Softness, balance. Listen to the Van Bellen remix of Watching the Waves. OK it has some bongo stuff in it, but the kick and hat are so well balanced in the mix. You would never call it harsh, clinical, too pronouced, too forward etc

The track of yours you shared doesn't really have enough big percussive elements in to judge.

 

[Progrez]

The majority of what they were using in terms of sample banks and the presets built into certain drum machines (and perc synth patches) are all available today.
The common 808/909 sounds are everywhere (I even have an old legacy sample pack with samples from these machines fed through hardware distortion and saturation units.)
They sound nice, but nothing out of the ordinary.

There is the overall build-up of noise and saturation that occurs through the process of creating older records to take into account. The chain linking your analogue model drum machines, through an analogue compressor, to an analogue mixing desk, then onto DAT and finally pressed into vinyl records is going to add a lot of saturation/small levels of distortion and build ups of that background noise/ hiss from physical gear.
Not to mention the very act of playing a vinyl record adds that pop/crackle noise-floor.

I often think the supposed ‘warmth’ people talk about analogue recordings have is down to the accumulation of all these subtle imperfections.

But does this make your percussion sound thicker? Probably not in and of itself.

You could also take into account sampling culture today and the introduction of more digital based sample processing and lower memory constraints.

If for example you were to sample a drum loop from a vinyl record, then load it into a hardware sampler, maybe drop the bit-rate and convert it to mono for a smaller file size (due to the memory limitations of older gear at the time) that’s going to have an effect on the final sound. Not to mention if the record you’ve sampled it from was also using a loop sampled and put through the same process, you are then getting this greater build up of artefacts within the sound. It’s how you end up with those ‘dusty’ sounding drums on old breakbeat and hip hop records.

So there’s probably not a singular cause, but maybe a combination of modern processing techniques and the ‘cleaner’ sound of digital recording.

You can replicate the sound though with modern plugins, if you have the time and patience to really dive into the sound design aspect of processing.

I used some of those techniques for the drums on my track ‘Our New Horizon’
There’s some classic breaks mixed in there (The Sesame Street Break and the shaker loop from Lynne Collins ‘Think’) which I made mono and downsampled to give that vintage feel, with some more modern one shot samples over the top as ear candy. The whole drum channel is then going through an analogue model saturator and compressor.


As I said, there’s probably not a singular answer between changing production techniques, the need for more headroom and changing tastes in terms of final mixdowns.

Then why don't they sound like the older tracks? Or they don't have the same groove like the older tracks did ? I don't know if it's just me but modern tracks like this loose their feel and groove because the percussions sound like they are digitised or plastic sounding compared to the percussions in all of these tracks in the set below. Even the new tracks by Astral Projections or Activa's labels track don't sound like their older they've lost their groove too. Listen to the arpeggios they are so subtle too which is not something you hear in modern day tracks. Even the modern progressive stuff seem to have the same lifeless and robotic percussion template compared to the older stuff which sounded raw and very rhythmic and groove.


https://soundcloud.com/poddersdj%2Fbonzai-xtc-green-martian-special-2024-01-13
Gorgeous gorgeous track by Airwave and MIKE once again

 

[TRANCEBLASTER]

Then why don't they sound like the older tracks? Or they don't have the same groove like the older tracks did ? I don't know if it's just me but modern tracks like this loose their feel and groove because the percussions sound like they are digitised or plastic sounding compared to the percussions in all of these tracks in the set below. Even the new tracks by Astral Projections or Activa's labels track don't sound like their older they've lost their groove too. Listen to the arpeggios they are so subtle too which is not something you hear in modern day tracks. Even the modern progressive stuff seem to have the same lifeless and robotic percussion template compared to the older stuff which sounded raw and very rhythmic and groove.


https://soundcloud.com/poddersdj%2Fbonzai-xtc-green-martian-special-2024-01-13
Gorgeous gorgeous track by Airwave and MIKE once again

'Close Proximity' released their first EP 9 months ago. 'Push' had already 6 years of production experience in 2001. bit unfair

 

[Progrez]

'Close Proximity' released their first EP 9 months ago. 'Push' had already 6 years of production experience in 2001. bit unfair

Not really unfair man, I am not comparing apples to oranges here or different eras of one producer here I have already done with others. My post about comparing production techniques and a lack of groove, emotions and percussion in modern trance/progressive productions. It's feedback as well and I want to know why and how to recreate that feeling and sound.