Why are Trance tracks getting so short?

I like longer tracks. Short ones seems to rushed.

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Originally Posted by vermont-cade

I've been thinking about this too in the past.

For example 10 years ago, ASOT contained about 20 tracks per episode. Nowadays those episodes contain constantly over 30 tracks.

There are probably many reasons that this is happening. My opinions & guesses:

1) In theory, it's faster to produce a short track than a lengthy track (assuming you put equal amount of sounds into the tracks). Because in these days where your tracks "shelf life" is short, your track is played at most a couple of times & then forgotten in a month (or faster?), produces might be pushed to make shorter tracks in order to stay relevant & be in the spotlight. And because of this, why would a producer spend more time on one track when he/she can make two tracks within the same time period?

2) DJ:s can promote more tracks in a radio episode. In the past, when radio shows were structured similar to DJ sets played in clubs, nowadays radio shows feel more like advertisement. If a radio show DJ also owns a label, there's an incentive to push more names under their label catalogue to the people via their radio show. For live mixing, on the downside, with shorter tracks, you need to do more mixing work when you're doing a set (althought not a problem with the available tech), but as an upside, you also look more like you're doing something when playing a set.

3) Increasing the price of your product. Releasing a shorter track, but keeping the price same will indirectly increase it's price. In this case, a consumer gets less seconds per currency when buying a shorter track. Shorter track means that the producer spent less time making it, thus gaining more value out of it. Also, when currencies values have gone down the past years & less people buying tracks, you can't really increase the price, as it would lead to even less people buying your tracks. This thinking only applies to bought tracks, not to streaming revenues, unless streaming revenue is payed per plays & not per seconds listened (no clue).

4) Gaining listener's attention quicker & attracting younger audience. If your track really gets going after 2 minute mark, most of nowadays listeners have already switched to another track.

5) EDM:s influence. Most EDM-tracks are very short (3-5 minutes), EDM DJ:s play banger after banger & the style attracts & is liked by a big number of people. So it's not a surprise that trance would copy aspect of that genre, like it has copied things from past successful genres & producers.

It's unfortunate that when you cut parts of a trance track in order to queeze it into a shorter format, you can't cut the mixing parts, so most of the time you cut the parts where your track would have a slower or smoother progress.

Track length is a weird thing to try to optimize, because for me if a track is good, it doesn't matter if its 4 or 12 min length, I will always enjoy the full length of it.

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THIS!!!!

Almost agree on everything you've said!
1) It's a consumer society today. 95% of the people listen to a track once at best twice than forget it. Why producing one long track instead of 2 shorts?
2) My point exactly, couldn't have said it better than you --> it's just a business
3) Not really agreeing here: a short track can take ages and a lot of effort to be produced
4) The today's average listener wants the cool things in a track to come after 30 sec, otherwise he will swith to another. It joins point number 1 as well. Look at the statistics on any single track on youtube. Audience retention goes down to a mere 20% after the first minute
5) True as well

Conclusion for me: it's because trance has become mainstream, because of the f*cking consumer society and because today's listeners are influenced by all sort of crappy stuff.

I'm trying to go back to underground stuff as much as I can.

cheers and thanks for the great topic!

An this is another take from another perspective. Mark Sherry's message to promoters, who more and more book tons of DJs for shorter and shorter sets.

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A message to promoters:

When you constantly book DJ's for short 1 hour sets at your events, not only are you taking away from clubbers what they really want to see/hear when their favourite DJ's are playing, but in turn you're actually re-programming the way clubbers think..and it's not good, it's not good at all. Let me explain..

When I get booked to play for an hour at a big event I have to edit most of my tracks down to 4 or 5 minute short edits, which means that you end up editing away a lot of the 'beats' sections. You try and get to the breakdown as quickly as possible, then you cut the track as quickly as you can after the main break and drop have been and gone..this gives you an hour of very short and usually crap sounding edits that will go something like 'breakdown, drop, breakdown, drop..' etc etc etc. What are you meant to dance to if there aren't as many beat sections in sets anymore? How are you meant to build a set? How can you create an amazing and electric atmosphere on the dancefloor anymore?..and I mean an ELECTRIC atmosphere, where people are literally climbing the walls and sweat is dripping down from the ceiling! This is how the horrendous 'drop culture' spawned from the EDM scene! You are programming clubbers to crave drops instead of beats, they expect things to happen much faster, they lose interest after 3 or 4 mins. They are spoiled, but this isn't their fault, at all..it's YOU the promoter's fault for your 'maxed out' DJ lineups, crazily short DJ set lengths and extremely cramped timetables!

Please take things back to the old school. Give DJ's extended sets again, let things breathe again. Instead of putting 10 DJ's on your lineups, try putting 3 DJ's on but give them 3 hours each to play instead of 1 hour, or even book 5 DJ's to play for 2 hours each. This is what clubbers really want in my opinion. This is what DJ's really want. This is what I want!

Last weekend I was so impressed with the Monkey BuzinezZ pres 'Trance Unity' event in Montreal that was organised by my good friend Ramy Bargz and the CIRCUS Afterhours team! There were 15 hours of non stop extended sets from DJ's across 3 rooms and the atmosphere was off the scale! It's one of the most enjoyable DJ sets that I've ever played and it felt like a rave straight out of the 90's. The clubbers danced all night and you could really feel the atmosphere building and building with the music..no short edits in sight! I really hope other promoters follow suit and are inspired by this event to try something similar. I hope that we see the back of these 1 hour DJ set event templates that most promoters seem to be doing these days!

Anyhoo, I've said my peace..

M ��

#ExtendedDJSets #BackToTheOldSchool

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For me the length of track has never really been an issue, Sherrys topic is spot on though.

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Originally Posted by tep

For me the length of track has never really been an issue

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Not until now - the good short tracks couldve been even better if they were longer and built-up properly.

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Originally Posted by Magdelayna

Not until now - the good short tracks couldve been even better if they were longer and built-up properly.

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This. :)

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Originally Posted by Alpha-Dog

An this is another take from another perspective. Mark Sherry's message to promoters, who more and more book tons of DJs for shorter and shorter sets.

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What he mostly forgets is the shift from clubs to festivals. At least here in NL that's really an issue. Nightclubs are closing while there comes an overkill in festival events because that's what the people mostly demand.

Imho festivals are made for a broad kind of entertainment, including music, but it also leads to shorter sets. For me, I could barely not imagine to stay for more than an hour at a stage while there is happening so much arround on other places. Ofcourse there are exceptions, but those are rare.

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Originally Posted by Thijs

What he mostly forgets is the shift from clubs to festivals. At least here in NL that's really an issue. Nightclubs are closing while there comes an overkill in festival events because that's what the people mostly demand.

Imho festivals are made for a broad kind of entertainment, including music, but it also leads to shorter sets. For me, I could barely not imagine to stay for more than an hour at a stage while there is happening so much arround on other places. Ofcourse there are exceptions, but those are rare.

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Yeah I agree
totally forgot about festivals. But people want to see 14 djs in one day so sets are really short. And DJs try to put a maximum of tracks in them, which is quite boring IMO. I love the progression and the flight longer djsets provide and allow you to experience, where time is the last thing that matters!
Some longer sets are still being done, but of course this mostly happens in clubs rather than at festivals.
we need clubs to grow again!

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Originally Posted by Alpha-Dog

Yeah I agree
totally forgot about festivals. But people want to see 14 djs in one day so sets are really short. And DJs try to put a maximum of tracks in them, which is quite boring IMO. I love the progression and the flight longer djsets provide and allow you to experience, where time is the last thing that matters!
Some longer sets are still being done, but of course this mostly happens in clubs rather than at festivals.
we need clubs to grow again!

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Yeah, I prefer club events above festivals as well.....music/journey wise.

Mostly clubs do have two, or max three stages with just two or three headliners. That's waay less than the big festivals with sometimes 7 (main)stages, containing top class DJs from open to close on every stage and still have a side program with lectures, markets, funfairs, bungee jumping, boat rentals, escape rooms, swimming lakes, hot tubs and other crazy stuff. And yes, I have seen festivals that had all options of this list checked.

Ofcourse that's big fun, but it leads to a whole different approach of the music itself.

I think the big mistake of club owners is that they are going to copy the festivals by booking too many DJs. That's a huge mistake because a real clubnight definitely requires a different approach with LONG sets, perhaps two headliners, a handful of talents and big journeys! That's where I come for at least.
And ofcourse, I have a checklist in mind of DJs I have seen, and DJ's I haven't seen. And yes, it's fun to see new (famous) names on teh checklist. But in the end that's all marketing. I just wanna have a good night with the DJ putting me on a long trip!

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Originally Posted by Thijs

Yeah, I prefer club events above festivals as well.....music/journey wise.

Mostly clubs do have two, or max three stages with just two or three headliners. That's waay less than the big festivals with sometimes 7 (main)stages, containing top class DJs from open to close on every stage and still have a side program with lectures, markets, funfairs, bungee jumping, boat rentals, escape rooms, swimming lakes, hot tubs and other crazy stuff. And yes, I have seen festivals that had all options of this list checked.

Ofcourse that's big fun, but it leads to a whole different approach of the music itself.

I think the big mistake of club owners is that they are going to copy the festivals by booking too many DJs. That's a huge mistake because a real clubnight definitely requires a different approach with LONG sets, perhaps two headliners, a handful of talents and big journeys! That's where I come for at least.
And ofcourse, I have a checklist in mind of DJs I have seen, and DJ's I haven't seen. And yes, it's fun to see new (famous) names on teh checklist. But in the end that's all marketing. I just wanna have a good night with the DJ putting me on a long trip!

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exactly!

I miss those days, where tracks has 2 breakdowns, where the melody changes a bit or some sub-melodies are added...it was more journeyfull...they dont make it like this nowadays :////

You can only listen to the mid-section of todays trance...2 minutes in the middle is the only important...its shame...

I want to elaborate on this from a different point of view.
From DJ perspective, playing a short 1 hour long set(or 1:30, or 2, everything but an allnighter) the track lenght doesn't really make that much of a difference. Between the extremes of 4-5 minutes and 10 minute trcks, difference between short 6-7 minute tracks and 8-9 is that you play 10 instead of 11 or 12 songs in an hour, depending on style of mixing, so journey and long drawn out mixes are possible regardless.

Where it counts is the energy on the dance floor and the chemistry between tracks. People simply don't care for longer tracks and long transitions of old. By the 6 minute mark of arguably great (and long, at almost 9min) "Numb the Pain", patrons will be checking their phones, and you can't really have that.
It has a lot to do with other tacks in the set. If 8 of 10 tracks are short, longer tracks will simply not work in the grander scheme of things. That's why classic sets do work, because of consistency between longer tracks.
In the old days, dj would mix out early to shorten the track, or made an edit as that became accessible.

But in the end, it's the majority of the patrons of the nightlife that seem to enjoy more concentrated experience that is being pushed by festivals and radio shows(which, in a real world outside little fanboy bubble, are showcase marketing tools first and foremost and packing them with content is logical thing to do) and you have to work with that somehow.

Well it just got worse,one of my tracks of the year 'Dopamina' - the ''extended'' mix is just 5:36.

That was a radio edit in the early 2000s hehe.

Im about to pour a bit of my prespective on this.

My tracks that I make, although pain-stakingly long amount of time to create due to After-Production, EQ and all that stuff to do with Mastering.

The way I make tracks is that I like to write stories with my tracks. These stories are based on something I have a fondness with or a passion. Now to tell that all in 2.29-3.59 a radio edit length is very frustrating. As I can not tell the story as a whole, its to me radio edit I look at it as when you read a book its that summeray on the back cover, the introduction the book and to put to a film reference the radio edit is like the trailer, just introduces you to the story doesnt give much away to what the story is about. Although this might be nice if you want to do that. I find it very annoying when your 2-3/4 mins in and its over.

Now these 5.30 / 5.50 tracks would be to me a kids short book, very easy to read, very pleasing not very complicated and if it is a film it would be one of them short films that you wish the directors writers and producers made longer. You feel that there wasnt enough story. You feel the chapters were missing vital parts of the story out and you could not get a feel for certain parts.

The seven mintue to 8.40 Mins tracks they feel somewhat good, its the book and its the film in its original feature length. Theres a lot more effort gone into them, your left feeling that your satisfied with the book and it had more in it that you recommend it to a friend. Then the film at this length is including the directors producers extras. If its on the latter end of that scale.

So back to my typical length tracks I like making them Double Digit. I feel I can express what I want to deliver and the story feels right. I feel that the story has been told and theres no missing bits. That I could have thought afterwards. Oh I wish I did this or that with it. I guess when Im listening to others works when they make their stories at 5-6 mins extended mixes usually its a typical theme. Percussion subtractive notes and sfx for about 1.30 then a tiny portion of the main melody repeated a little bit. Then a break or drop, then a build up of main melody without kicks percussion. Until about 2.40 3,20 Then about two melody main parts repeated. With a one time climax point. Finished off with percussion. This is usually 85-90% of tracks being released. It feels very repetitive, if you listen carefully in sets that are being played it will be that formula throughout the set. No variation.

Just some info on the track Im working on at present is; (so you get my point about content)

All Instrumental; To start with it has some percussive intro, then comes in a seductive sub melody which grabs you, which is then broke up by a padded-break to enrich it with a different layer in the story. Incorporated into this pad-break is the chorus which then becomes apparent when it builds into the story. So when the 1st chorus is done, theres a break again, just like them intervals at theatres or cinemas, where a percussive twists and turns are displayed. The stroy straightaway from that turns into the Melody, gradually building up, The Melody is a big chunk of the story and it truly needs emphasizing. The Melody is broken into two parts. Followed by the second Chorus, with the introduction Melody, Chorus and Main Melody they are joined by a deap bassline. Keeping the story progressing and together so your not lost. Once the second chrorus is done, the main melody is then used as a breakaway letting the reader or film watcher know a little different part of the story. Finally the track gradually slows down then your left feeling "Blimey Thats Filled Me Up!" 11.50 ish later you put down the book flick the switch on the DVD to open/eject and think that hopefully is a good read / Veiwing.

Now I could not have told the story with as much detail, twists and turns, plots, sub plots main characters sub characters, so on and so forth if it was a five minuter.

I hope this helps @Magdelayna in telling the others how it feels as the producer.

Radio edit is a term absurd in itself, IF the music piece is about telling a story... In trance especially. Even though if it's not, if it's just a bunch of melodies that just WORK...it absolutely has to have some length in order to naturally develop and not feel rushed.

Have I heard some short, sweet tracks? Yes! But they are often euphoric, uplifting and do have that short & sweet kind of vibe to them. But as soon as you start thinking about the track's length (and adjusting it for some reason), it loses its point.

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Originally Posted by Astral Point

I agree. When I try to explain them that Trance is a genre that we feel, they basically just laugh at me. That leaves me disappointed. :/

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Totally agree!

radio edits are meaningless always prefer original or extended mixes, me as a listener want a track to be a min of 8 mins.

It was all fun and games until I saw this

https://www.beatport.com/release/menace/1858232

Black Sunset, Armada. I like their music most of the time, but at 3:55 extended (!!!!!!) they are REALLY pushing it.
That's not even... I dunno. It's been compacted to the max: 30 sec dj intro, 30 sec intro, 60 sec break, 45 sec climax 15 sec, bridge, 30 sec outro, 30 sec DJ outro....

Thats.... if you ever wondered how short a club trance track can get, I think they nailed it, but I won't be playing it tho.

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Originally Posted by Reconceal

It was all fun and games until I saw this

https://www.beatport.com/release/menace/1858232

Black Sunset, Armada. I like their music most of the time, but at 3:55 extended (!!!!!!) they are REALLY pushing it.
That's not even... I dunno. It's been compacted to the max: 30 sec dj intro, 30 sec intro, 60 sec break, 45 sec climax 15 sec, bridge, 30 sec outro, 30 sec DJ outro....

Thats.... if you ever wondered how short a club trance track can get, I think they nailed it, but I won't be playing it tho.

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Trading Standards should all over their Ass!

Does anyone suposse this could be an anonamous reader of TranceFixNL who is trying to wind us up.

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Originally Posted by Mujtabaahmed.01

radio edits are meaningless always prefer original or extended mixes, me as a listener want a track to be a min of 8 mins.

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But here we are talking about 'extended' mixes being the same length as old radio edits.

Radio edits are a seperate topic - they serve a purpose on their own.

Imo you cant get an 'entrancing' 'hypnotic' feeling in a trance track in 30 seconds segments....these tracks in or under 6 minutes just doesnt allow it - too many transitions coming in fast.

Look on Dimitri Vegas & Like Mike - Live at Tomorrowland 2016 and than you understand why track are getting short.
They play 1min 30 second tracks or 2 min.
And because we know that European dance music copy from this garbage, now not only from sound but also from length of song.
I say it again american music industry destroy original European dance music genre.

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Originally Posted by Magdelayna

But here we are talking about 'extended' mixes being the same length as old radio edits.

Radio edits are a seperate topic - they serve a purpose on their own.

Imo you cant get an 'entrancing' 'hypnotic' feeling in a trance track in 30 seconds segments....these tracks in or under 6 minutes just doesnt allow it - too many transitions coming in fast.

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At least guys on here are now agreeing with me about length of tracks, how silly its getting. My next phase of attack will be 140BPM Im sure folks will start agreeing soon.

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Originally Posted by Magdelayna

But here we are talking about 'extended' mixes being the same length as old radio edits.

Radio edits are a seperate topic - they serve a purpose on their own.

Imo you cant get an 'entrancing' 'hypnotic' feeling in a trance track in 30 seconds segments....these tracks in or under 6 minutes just doesnt allow it - too many transitions coming in fast.

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Oh yeah now that I think of it I agree with you on that radio edits serving a purpose of their own but yeah trance tracks can't be made short as I said they need to be longer around 8 mins at the least to be complete.