Dutch anti-islam movie: good or bad?

[2030]

UPDATE: Movie is online
View: http://www.whoozz.com/Video/video.aspx?vid=20246
Or: http://rapidshare.com/files/102841152/Fitna.avi

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Not sure if you have heard about this in the rest of the world, but one of our members of parliament (Geert Wilders) is making an anti-koran movie (or quran, however you spell it).
The taliban is threatening us with attacks, some islamic countries are threatening with very serious consequences etc. And ofcourse the usual deaththreats from al quaeda. In Pakisten they even blocked youtube for it. Oh well.

But nobody has even seen the movie yet since its not finished
It is feared that the release of the movie in the coming weeks will cause alot of violence and possible world war 3.

What do you think about this? Vote in the poll and leave a reply with your view on this all

[Seb Astían]

I voted for the second alterative. I think it's stupid to make a movie like this, I would even say racistic. I don't get the point of a movie like this. Off course there is freedom of speech but everyone knows a video like this will upset a lot of people and that Al Quaeda will make more deaththreats and maybe some devestating terror attacks. This could end up in serious conflicts since the islamic countries are going to be VERY upset if this movie is released.

[2030]

Hmm a very simple question then:

If you say a man is violent, and the man reacts violently, did you insult him?

[SkooB_E]

Hmm a very simple question then:

If you say a man is violent, and the man reacts violently, did you insult him?

What are you sayng that all muslim are violent? So just because some retarded muslim fantaics are acting like idiots that means all muslim are the same? Then I guess you're no better then them. And since I know this quiestion will come up, no, I'm not muslim.

Now, I'm all for freedom of speech and the writen word if there is a purpose behind it. However, if you're doing it just to start some shit then you deserve to get a beat down.

So my question is; what is the purpose of this film?

[Drakkie]

As the first Dutch response I hope to make the general view of most Dutch people clear. We are not intolerant at all. A substantial part of our population exists of foreigners. The INTERNAL problem in the Netherlands is that for years people have frowned upon them because a lot were either incapable, too lazy for it(excellent social system) or for whatever other reason.

These people congregated in the less expensive neighbourhoods and more or less replaced the Dutch lower class in them. The shit in these places is still more or less the same.

In the last decade the unrest about these situations has been increased by various factors. One of them is the educational system that has been more or less destroyed by our 90's government. Especially that for less smart people, called VMBO, hs become dull, uninspiring etcetera. This sparked the drug industry and also made a lot of youths that couldn't get along drop out. These youths of general Muslim backgrounds(latest wave of immigrants to our nation) hang around on the streets and commit many crimes. The "gangster = cool" thing of the last decade didn't help much either. However Dtch kids did exactly the same (I speak of experience as a former criminal and drug addict).

The Dutch people detested these persons and when the politician called Pim Fortuyn said something sensible about them he got a lot of supporters in the Dutch (lower) class. He was murdererd a week before elections, by an environmentalist. This only sparked the brewing unrest more. IMO Fortuyn was a awkward guy, but had some good idea's. Not all though. Atleast he came with radical, but working solutions. The city I study in(Rotterdam) has really been shaken alive again by him and his party. The last 5 years it has really improved A LOT !

Anyway. Mr. Wilders stood up as a very radical right-wing politician in recent years. Especially the lower class agrees with him, however majority of Dutch people ridicule him. His talks have however deepened the hate of most part of the immigrant population.

They feel heavily discriminated upon and offcourse hate Mr. Wilders. Especially immigrant youths start to get more and more radical against Dutch people, simply because we are white and native. The wound is only widening instead of closing.

I myself have been beaten and left unconscious on the streets for 9 hours. Had to go into hospital to come out four days later. All that by a group(14 arrested) of immigrant youths last summer. Why ? Because they were high or something and had a problem with Dutch people. You can imagine it is VERY hard to stay neutral and not blame it on an entire group, especially with all the media attention of recent.

Most importantly to note is though that Mr. Wilders is frowned upon by every thinking person here. He is hardly taken seriously and is only uselessly insulting people. Atleast Mr. Fortuyn had some constructive idea's, something that I've never heard from Mr. Wilders.

I know the Muslim countries will set an example of this. They probably will organise riots etcetera to test their influence on Europe. I do hope though that I will not be involved personally again, as do most Dutchies.

[Sjagga]

Excellent and insightful reply Drakkie.

And well, Wilders himself of course knows damn well that he would cause this kind of reactions, but that probably is exactly what he wants. I can actually see him say 'there is no movie, but i made my point' someday soon.
Of course i feel he should have never made this movie or said he would in the first place, but it is ofcourse also pretty damn unsettling that something like this causes such a reaction :/
If everyone would just stop for a bit and think about what would be best for everyone this world would be a lot better.

[c-and]

Ah well, I don't have a problem with it. It is his freedom to make te movie and he is responsible for his actions. No one has seen the movie yet so we can't really judge it.
The movie is about the violence in the koran and some other things, but the reactions to the movie can be violent so he would have his point in some way.

Well, maybe there sould also be an anti-bible movie. Most religions are based upon each other. I dislike religions anyway, people are lead to much by religions and it causes a lot of trouble.
We are all humans in the end....

[2030]

What are you sayng that all muslim are violent? So just because some retarded muslim fantaics are acting like idiots that means all muslim are the same? Then I guess you're no better then them. And since I know this quiestion will come up, no, I'm not muslim.

Thats not what i wrote. It would be nice if ppl were actually able to stay calm thru such a discussion

Now, I'm all for freedom of speech and the writen word if there is a purpose behind it. However, if you're doing it just to start some shit then you deserve to get a beat down.

So my question is; what is the purpose of this film?

The purpose of this film from Wilders point of view i think, is to expose the koran as a source of violence and islam incapable of dealing with criticism. Or at least criticize it in some way. However politically incorrect that is. And if this movie does result in violence, can you honestly call it an insulting movie? This is why i asked the question earlier: if you call a violent man violent, is it an insult?

The purpose of this could be to moderate islam, while it may at first seem to aim for the opposite. How do you think christianity became moderate? Because we told them that violence is ok when we criticize them ("However, if you're doing it just to start some shit then you deserve to get a beat down.") ? Or because they were continuously confronted?

Criticizing a belief or certain values is not the same as criticizing an entire group either. When you criticize communism, youre not a racist right? Even tho you are speaking about hundreds of millions of ppl...

In that sense i disagree with Drakkie. Wilders never lowered himself to generalizing all muslims. Alot of ppl confuse criticism on islam with saying something about the entire group. The opinions on Wilders are that either you hate him, or you love him, and unfortunately the haters only call him a racist.

Currently in Holland it is impossible to do movies, books, art or anything about islam, even bring up the subject as a politician. You have to fear for your life and someone was even ritually slaughtered here for just that. Dont you find that shocking? Do you think he deserved what he got? And how do you suggest to improve this situation? By telling muslims that its all our fault... we shouldnt be making movies?

No, what at first seems the most reasonable thing to do, to not provoke things, is the worst solution. It is discriminative, because we dont do the same to other religions or even atheists. We provoke them all, and we dont expect to be killed for it. All should be treated equally right?

[Arcana]

let it be seen. freedom to everyone. it would expose what religion really does to a person...

[Sjagga]

Showing a movie like this, or even talking about it the way it's done now won't solve anything at all.. It's only making things worse. And yes it should be possible to do so without the kind of reactions and threats that it's provoking, but it just isn't.
People need to be looking for a different solution, though i fear there's not much that can be done anymore. Actually people need to chill the hell down and not take everything so seriously and personally

[AustralianGQ]

simply breathing pisses muslims off LOL,

so a movie like this deffinately will piss them off even more, they will riot and cause violence, further proving that muslims are nutjobs and exteremists and that islam is just another goofy religion like scientology.

it should be released, freedom of speech and hey, i dont like religion anyways. religion is evil, especially islam, so im all for the dutch bashing on islam.

[Lo_]

The movie should not be released, it will cause too much violence.

In past, there were already problems example: the caricature of the prophet Mahomet
why still to create problems?

This kind of subject are always very hard to be relevant or true ...
pity !

[Seb Astían]

No, what at first seems the most reasonable thing to do, to not provoke things, is the worst solution. It is discriminative, because we dont do the same to other religions or even atheists. We provoke them all, and we dont expect to be killed for it. All should be treated equally right?

I thinks it's stupid that we can't provoke a certain religion without fearing for our lives, I really do. I think everyone should be treated equally but if we know there is a very big risk that it will cause a lot of violence by releasing the movie, the why do it? It would just be plain stupid. I think everyone should live in peace with each other and if to not provoke one religion is a key to get rid of violence, then we shouldn't provoke. We should be able to speak our mind, but not in a provoking way.

[SkooB_E]

Thats not what i wrote. It would be nice if ppl were actually able to stay calm thru such a discussion

Didn't mean to bitch, but that kind of thing most often comes from people with heavy double standard, which often makes this kind of discussion go the wrong way. Now I'm not saying you're like that so I appologize if that came out wrong.

The purpose of this film from Wilders point of view i think, is to expose the koran as a source of violence and islam incapable of dealing with criticism. Or at least criticize it in some way. However politically incorrect that is. And if this movie does result in violence, can you honestly call it an insulting movie? This is why i asked the question earlier: if you call a violent man violent, is it an insult?

That's just my point. If he only aims to point out the violent parts of the koran he is going for controversy on purpose which is hardly obejctive, and that's what I think is wrong.

How about the rest of the koran that has nothing to do with war and hate? Why not bring that up? Or what about the bible that is just as violent as the koran in many ways, just look back at the crusades?

In that sense i disagree with Drakkie. Wilders never lowered himself to generalizing all muslims. Alot of ppl confuse criticism on islam with saying something about the entire group. The opinions on Wilders are that either you hate him, or you love him, and unfortunately the haters only call him a racist.

Of course people feel that he's attacking islam as a whole when he goes for the book that is the verry foundation of their religion. What it seems he should really be doing is to aim for the people that are casuing all of this.

Currently in Holland it is impossible to do movies, books, art or anything about islam, even bring up the subject as a politician. You have to fear for your life and someone was even ritually slaughtered here for just that. Dont you find that shocking? Do you think he deserved what he got? And how do you suggest to improve this situation? By telling muslims that its all our fault... we shouldnt be making movies?

I think that's totally fucked up. And I agree with you that this kind of thing should not be happening. However, the fault lies with the politicians who are afraid to voice their opinions. They should be the ones saying: These are our laws and if you want to live in our country you are to live by them, if you don't, then you should gt the hell back to whereever you came from.

BUT the thing is that it should be done without generalizing all of the same race or religion, but be specifically aimed at the people involved. But as long that doesn't happen radical groups will take advantage of the situation.

[SkooB_E]

I thinks it's stupid that we can't provoke a certain religion without fearing for our lives, I really do. I think everyone should be treated equally but if we know there is a very big risk that it will cause a lot of violence by releasing the movie, the why do it? It would just be plain stupid. I think everyone should live in peace with each other and if to not provoke one religion is a key to get rid of violence, then we shouldn't provoke. We should be able to speak our mind, but not in a provoking way.

But why provoke someone? The point that should be made is that people should treat every religion with respect, regadles of it beeing islam, christianity , budhism or any other.

But of course you shuold be able to discuss something in a civilized way without beeing threatened for it. If these movies where about discussing islam and/or the koran as a whole without pointing fingers I absolutely think that it should be released.