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MrRabbit (05-31-2013)
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Not a biggy really. Where a non Muslim Dutch father kills his own children, or other Dutch non muslim people get killed by non muslim people in Spain... this is just peanuts.
Also our non muslim majority goverment made our laws like this that non muslim Bulgarians can fraud and steal the money which I work for.
Jesus.. those non muslim people really SUCK big time man! OH WAIT!
The numbers tell a different story. We have 10-20 islamic honor killings per year in Holland. If non-muslims killed their relatives in Holland as much as muslims, Holland would have 300 murdered relatives per year. So the sad reality is that the 5% muslims in Holland kill their relatives as much as the 95% of non-muslims. Touché imho.Originally Posted by Puppetmaster
I dont know why you feel the need to whitewash the motives of such tragedies. The urge to defend the "underdog"?
Last edited by 2030; 05-30-2013 at 19:26 PM.
Background as in country of origin / family roots perhaps, but definitely not ideology. Someone who looks to originate from the Middle-East for example could also be an atheist, that means that person could have an entirely different ideology than someone who looks similar racially.
Last edited by MrRabbit; 05-30-2013 at 23:54 PM. Reason: typo
What is worse? Killing 20-30 honor peeps or killing thousands of babies via abortions?
Westerns are liking to buy 3$ tshirts which caused a building to collapse and killed 1.000+. Yet you only seem to care about muslim related problems. Never a word about how the western society sucks and what problems we ourselves create. This way of acting (posting) is just laughable and makes it difficult to take you serious really.
Not solving a problem because there are more problems... That doesn't feel completely right somehow.
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Agreed. Why isn't this problem being solved? And how to solve it?
Well in my opinion we should strive for more assimilation instead of integration. Also, opinion leaders should publicly denounce the parts of Islam that are simply not acceptable for our society (women's rights and such). So that would be the solution. This problem is not being solved because of fear. Fear of repercussion, fear of unpopularity, fear of even acknowledging a problem. Especially the last one is important. Imagine a married couple with serious relationship issues. Usually such couples go on for a long time even when the relationship sucks, because the consequence (divorce, split money, the kids, no longer being in a relationship is weird, the dream is over, etc.) is scary as shit. Same with this, the consequences are very big so ignoring or discarding the problem is easier. However, the problem keeps growing and becomes harder to solve, and at one point out might 'explode'. At that point, people look back and say "wir haben es nicht gewusst".
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MrRabbit (05-31-2013)
Spot on, Alex
Is it really? I totally don't see things that way tbh. There are enough politicians etc who name the immigration problem and their effects. They even get lots of votes cause of that and they are very popular cause of naming this problem, exactly the opposite of what you are stating? At least for me the fact that they cause problems is very clear.
So i'm more interesting in what's next. How to solve current problems and prevend similar problems in the future? With new immigrants? Are we making the same mistakes with East European immigrants for example? If yes, why? Does it has an economical cause? Is it something you simply can't stop as people are free to move where they like?
Ps. PVV in NL was strongly against immigrants yet they had less votes the previous elections. Their votes went to other parties who were not or less strong against immigrants. Seems people don't give the whole immigrants issue in NL such a strong prio anymore?
Last edited by Puppetmaster; 05-31-2013 at 10:48 AM.
If a trained parrot would say "no Islam, Islam bad!", that might be something I agree with but no way I would vote for it during an election. Wilders is that parrot.
"So i'm more interesting in what's next. How to solve current problems and prevend similar problems in the future? With new immigrants?"
Assimilation. Being more strict on Muslim institutions to prevent teachings that are incompatible with our society. They have come to us for a better life, then they adapt to our way of life. They come in a package.
"Are we making the same mistakes with East European immigrants for example? If yes, why? Does it has an economical cause? Is it something you simply can't stop as people are free to move where they like?"
There's no clear ideology behind these people, so that behavior should be easier to change because it's not consciously reinforced. I don't even think there's a serious difference between us an these people, but our relative wealth attracts the bad elements in their society. I think this is an issue that will become less problematic over time, when our wealth decrease and wealth in Eastern Europe increases.
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Agree, but can you be more concrete there? How should they adapt? And how would that be forced/organised?
Plus Maxima said there is no typical Dutch culture, as we have so many different cultures and nationalities etc. So to what way of living should they adapt? THE Dutch way? Which is?
Edit: we also have hundreds of thousands people living in NL already who are to lazy to work etc. IMO they aren't much better then a group of immigrants who are making troubles.
Can you suggest something so that that group will also adapt in a way that they will work? Use force? Make it illegal not to work? If decide not to work = move out of NL by force? Interesting!
Last edited by Puppetmaster; 05-31-2013 at 13:41 PM.
Well that's a lot. Not allowing self-segregation is an example (Islamic schools and such).
Not the way of living, but the values. We have values concerning for example women's rights, that are not accepted in Islam. Maxima was talking about types of clothing, food, music, etc. In this aspect we are very diverse. And I actually like that. But the bigger things, that make society work (like common values), are definitely cultural and should also be adopted by immigrants (especially Muslims).
I disagree. If you don't want to work, you don't work. If I win the lottery and stop working, I think that's ok. However, getting money from the government while not working, not looking for a job and being able to work, that's definitely wrong.
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Alex_E, you already have what you propose:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article...n_Human_Rights
Law defines religion, practice, teaching as 'free', and only to be governed by local laws when in opposition. They 'should' be kept in check by those statutes, the law is already there to protect your way of life.Article 9, Section 2 - Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
The law is fine as it stands, if there is an issue it is one of application.
That is exactly the problem. Why? Fear. See my earlier post (#682). If there is no problem (being acknowledged), the law won't be applied to fix anything.
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With any problem acknowledgment is the first step to resolving. When you push past that though You have to be very mindful in what you advocate and push for, where you draw lines and in what you allow / disallow.
The law is clear on where it stands, it is in the right place.Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
~ Friedrich Nietzsche
~ German philosopher (1844 - 1900)
The application is not right because human beings, individuals apply law & pursue complaints. It takes action on that level for things to rise and become checked against it. People can become isolated, fearful & confused.
2030 posted a fantastic video earlier in this thread explaining how many common terms have duality in meaning. For Muslim and Non-Muslims. Two people can read the same page and come away with a very different message. As a result you can have calls for action, both parties agreeing to them but both coming away with different meanings and pushing for a different execution of them.
Read my earlier post here, it explains this well. http://www.trancefix.nl/showthread.p...=1#post1523393
There is a huge issue with communication & also bravery. People are afraid of being shot down, particuarly when the term racism gets banded out. It is not anymore racist to be opposed to Islam than it is to be against people talking with their mouth full.
Remember we're talking about behaviour, we're free to criticise forms which we do not like.
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