Conservative or liberal (politics)

Mar 3, 2022
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Bristol, UK
Not really....I think its (psychologically) actually quite understandable.

The traits you mention @Super-Frog Saves Tokyo share a thing in common. They all go against State sanctioned, endorsed (or in some cased even enforced..) Narratives.

Trance specifically as a genre primarily developed in Frankfurt, Germany, when the Wall then fell in berlin and State enforced Socialist docrines where replaced with Freedom (of thought, speech, and exploration/expression Both scenes mixed In the (underground) abandoned warehouses of a collapsing empire, dying under the weight of its own failing ideology. Broader European rave culture(s) virtually everywhere carry an anti-authority and free-party element with them, though not perse anti socialist/ussr.. It is hence:

a Genre (or movement) born in a Zeitgeist of Change against what was and focused on anti-establishment/ freedom.

40 years later we find ourselves in a position where the overwhelming amount of institutes in Eu/Western States pretty much are all on board with, endorse, proselytize and sanction narratives of:

- Progressivism/ Globalism
- (Mass) immigration
- Climate change
- Feminism
- Lgbtq+ "alphabetism" etc.

I think the element of Freedom and suspicion of said government/big institute/company narratives is still very much present in the scene as an underlying subconcious axiom. which explains the attraction to it from "heretic dissidents" so to speak.


I think there are two separate points getting mixed up here.

Completely agree dance music has always had an anti-establishment element. Questioning authority, challenging norms and creating spaces outside the mainstream are absolutely part of its history.

Where I disagree is the assumption that this naturally connects to any particular modern political position. Being sceptical of authority doesn't automatically lead to climate scepticism, opposition to feminism or hostility towards LGBTQ+ people. Anti-establishment movements throughout history have existed across the political spectrum.

I also think several very different subjects are being grouped together under one broad “establishment narrative”. Scientific questions, political movements and social issues each require their own detailed discussion and evidence rather than being treated as a single package.

My original point was tongue in cheek and clumsy in its simplistic viewpoint: but fundamentally, I find it interesting that a culture with such strong roots in experimentation, diversity and providing space for outsiders now has some online spaces where culture-war arguments appear disproportionately prominent.

As a producer who tours and spends a lot of time around clubs and DJs, my experience is that these arguments are far more visible online than in the actual scene. The artists, promoters and crowds I encounter are generally focused on music, creativity and community rather than political identity battles. Online forums can amplify the loudest voices and are rarely representative of the ACTUAL wider culture.

The question isn't whether dance music is anti-establishment. That's clearly evidenced over the course of its history. The question is whether a particular set of modern political positions naturally follows from that history. I don’t think that link has been demonstrated; it is an interpretation, not established facts.
 
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Jetflag

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I think there are two separate points getting mixed up here.

Completely agree dance music has always had an anti-establishment element. Questioning authority, challenging norms and creating spaces outside the mainstream are absolutely part of its history.

Where I disagree is the assumption that this naturally connects to any particular modern political position. Being sceptical of authority doesn't automatically lead to climate scepticism, opposition to feminism or hostility towards LGBTQ+ people. Anti-establishment movements throughout history have existed across the political spectrum.
Correct, but it does open the door for it, If said underlying axiom/element remains present, Which was my point/ explanation as to why.

I actually whole heartily agree with you that EDM does not automatically connect to any (modern) political position and is actually quite a-political in that sense. But it also doesn't automatically exclude it either. (which is what you tongue and cheek implied ;) )

Most people I agree irl come to unwind, escape, listen/dance etc. But It, Like all large musical movements spanning across continents/history currently holds a myriad of people with varying political (dis)positions (Us included) which don't surface in a club where it is simply not the place for it.

I also think several very different subjects are being grouped together under one broad “establishment narrative”. Scientific questions, political movements and social issues each require their own detailed discussion and evidence rather than being treated as a single package.
They are different issues I agree, but they colloquially do all fall under the nomer of challenging establish (or establishment) narratives, wether those be scientific, social, ideological, or political. name me one of them that doesn't..

My original point was tongue in cheek and clumsy in its simplistic viewpoint:

Ya it’s a bit of a fun lament statement I know but I did think an interesting topic starter on how an underlying (rebellious) nature of something can potentially shift or deviate in a different political setting
😉

but fundamentally, I find it interesting that a culture with such strong roots in experimentation, diversity and providing space for outsiders now has some online spaces where culture-war arguments appear disproportionately prominent.
As a producer who tours and spends a lot of time around clubs and DJs, my experience is that these arguments are far more visible online than in the actual scene. The artists, promoters and crowds I encounter are generally focused on music, creativity and community rather than political identity battles. Online forums can amplify the loudest voices and are rarely representative of the ACTUAL wider culture.
it still does...but what used to be the outsider then ( politically/culturally etc.) is not per-se what it is today.. especially not politically speaking given the shifting (40 y) landscape. Hence a space like social media or this forum (where there is even a separate section specifically for it) will be " all" about that, naturally. Highlighting the aformentioned political diversity that is actually present in the scene, but which doesn't surface in (say) clubs.

The question isn't whether dance music is anti-establishment. That's clearly evidenced over the course of its history. The question is whether a particular set of modern political positions naturally follows from that history. I don’t think that link has been demonstrated; it is an interpretation, not established facts.
Well ask yourself, If the underlying anti-establishment and quasi rebellious nature remains...but politics and hence the establishment/institutions surrounding it have subtlety changed over the last 40 years..

then why not?

what would prevent it other then political gate-keeping which we both agree is virtually non-present/ invisible in the IRL scene?
 
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Mar 3, 2022
118 Posts
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Bristol, UK
Correct, but it does open the door for it, If said underlying axiom/element remains present, Which was my point/ explanation as to why.

I actually whole heartily agree with you that EDM does not automatically connect to any (modern) political position and is actually quite a-political in that sense. But it also doesn't automatically exclude it either. (which is what you tongue and cheek implied ;) )

Most people I agree irl come to unwind, escape, listen/dance etc. But It, Like all large musical movements spanning across continents/history currently holds a myriad of people with varying political (dis)positions (Us included) which don't surface in a club where it is simply not the place for it.


They are different issues I agree, but they colloquially do all fall under the nomer of challenging establish (or establishment) narratives, wether those be scientific, social, ideological, or political. name me one of them that doesn't..



Ya it’s a bit of a fun lament statement I know but I did think an interesting topic starter on how an underlying (rebellious) nature of something can potentially shift or deviate in a different political setting
😉



it still does...but what used to be the outsider then ( politically/culturally etc.) is not per-se what it is today.. especially not politically speaking given the shifting (40 y) landscape. Hence a space like social media or this forum (where there is even a separate section specifically for it) will be " all" about that, naturally. Highlighting the aformentioned political diversity that is actually present in the scene, but which doesn't surface in (say) clubs.


Well ask yourself, If the underlying anti-establishment and quasi rebellious nature remains...but politics and hence the establishment/institutions surrounding it have subtlety changed over the last 40 years..

then why not?

what would prevent it other then political gate-keeping which we both agree is virtually non-present/ invisible in the IRL scene?



Our views are very close in many respects!!!

Definitely agree what we call the “the establishment” changes over time, and that anti-establishment movements inevitably find new things to push against. Where we differ is that I don’t think this necessarily leads to any particular political direction—it simply creates space for a variety of them.

Perhaps that’s why I’d rather the scene remain broad enough to accommodate people with very different views without importing the wider culture wars into it. In my experience, those debates are far louder online than they are in clubs or backstage, and I think that’s a good thing.

One thing that really shaped my view was hearing Farius speak on Solarstone's 'Producer Talk' series quite publicly about how the current culture-war discourse has affected how comfortable he feels in certain event spaces as a gay artist. Whether people agree with him or not, I think it’s a clear reminder that what prominent voices in this scene choose to amplify can have real consequences for how inclusive those spaces feel, regardless of their intention.

Anyway, genuinely interesting discussion, and I always enjoy hearing the views of others on this subject when so eloquently put!
 
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Jetflag

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Same m8, 🙏
Perhaps that’s why I’d rather the scene remain broad enough to accommodate people with very different views without importing the wider culture wars into it. In my experience, those debates are far louder online than they are in clubs or backstage, and I think that’s a good thing.


One more thing we agree on m8 heh.. if there is one thing I’m almost religious about is separating politics from music.

its part of why i like working with/for Rich as a label manager and hardly send out demos to others, unless they’re people I know personally..

I’ve never seen Rich not sign or cancel say: a Russian because of Putins actions, an Israeli for Nethayahu’s or anyone for his or her sexuality or political views. And while ofcourse he has his own, he seems to first and foremost care about the art.
 
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cyalataque

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Feb 15, 2026
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My eyes are very much open m8..

You just keep dodging the "Ok, Eyes Open....Now What? " Conundrum.... and so whats the point in debating this further with you if all you do is scream doom and gloom? 🤷‍♂️

like: where do you suggest going from here?
You're lying, and the worst thing you can do is lie to yourself... you're not awake, hahaha



Come on guys, real eyes realise real lies

There you can close the fucking thread I'm right you're wrong stop living in the matrix
Maybe money isn't so bad, we just need to take away the power of those who control it, right? Did you see what they're doing with the books? They're preparing the end of everything, but they don't see it.
 

Arnoud

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THEY ARE ABOUT TO ELIMINATE MILLIONS OF HUMANS IN THE WORLD!! AND YOU ARE FIGHTING OVER RIGHT AND LEFT!!! WAKE UP, YOU ARE LIVING IN A SILENT WAR!
Who are 'they'? Are 'they' specifically targeting a select group? Should I be worried?

If I go to sleep than it's all forgotten, so maybe I should not be awake but asleep. When I do leave this earth I really hope it will be in my sleep.
 

Jetflag

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Who are 'they'? Are 'they' specifically targeting a select group? Should I be worried?

If I go to sleep than it's all forgotten, so maybe I should not be awake but asleep. When I do leave this earth I really hope it will be in my sleep.

IMG_5975.gif
 
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Jetflag

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When I do leave this earth I really hope it will be in my sleep.
Not me man, I’m hoping a gale 10 storm with thunder, stuffed up with cocaine and other stims to, for one hour, have my 90 year old wrinkled corps sail to the horizon, AC/DC’s Highway to Hell/Thunderstruck on Bluetooth speakers 💪
 

Arnoud

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Not me man, I’m hoping a gale 10 storm with thunder, stuffed up with cocaine and other stims to, for one hour, have my 90 year old wrinkled corps sail to the horizon, AC/DC’s Highway to Hell/Thunderstruck on Bluetooth speakers 💪
Fair enough. I would like to leave this earth as I entered it (and living it), barely conscious.

I am genuinely interested in 'they'. Is it just shouting something portraying their inept capabilities to understand how the world (how people work) works or can it be substantiated with logical context.
 

Jetflag

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Fair enough. I would like to leave this earth as I entered it (and living it), barely conscious.
Not via your mom's 🐈 I hope? :sneaky:

I am genuinely interested in 'they'. Is it just shouting something portraying their inept capabilities to understand how the world (how people work) works or can it be substantiated with logical context.
Its obviously some form of top-tier hierarchy he's referring to. Which isn't per se illogical a-priori mind you...Any large enough human group or populus has had, since the dawn of anything resembling tribe or civilization, A hierarchical structure.

Where I think this line of thinking becomes illogical is in the competence factor.

i think the situation where, you have Politicians, Rothschilds, Rochefellers, Morgans, Royal families etc. "controlling an manipulating the whole world into some sort pre-set-up plan for generations with a diabolical orwellian end result in mind"

....is far less likely then the situation where you have said people at the colloquial top yes...but things are waaaay less under their control as they would like to/ they're homosapianly-messing about pretty much like the rest of us.. perhaps wanting/ aiming for said "diabolical result" but not being competent enough to actually achieve it due to their own human shortcommings, like possible rivaleries amongst themselves.

Basically, no-one is really in control.
 
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Arnoud

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Not via your mom's 🐈 I hope? :sneaky:

5e7636d7-71aa-4a0a-aca6-d2dbab05f9c9_text.gif


Its obviously some form of top-tier hierarchy he's referring to. Which isn't per se illogical a-priori mind you...Any large enough human group or populus has had, since the dawn of anything resembling tribe or civilization, A hierarchical structure.

Where I think this line of thinking becomes illogical is in the competence factor.

i think the situation where, you have Politicians, Rothschilds, Rochefellers, Morgans, Royal families etc. "controlling an manipulating the whole world into some sort pre-set-up plan for generations with a diabolical orwellian end result in mind"

....is far less likely then the situation where you have said people at the colloquial top yes...but things are waaaay less under their control as they would like to/ they're homosapianly-messing about pretty much like the rest of us.. perhaps wanting/ aiming for said "diabolical result" but not being competent enough to actually achieve it due to their own human shortcommings, like possible rivaleries amongst themselves.

Basically, no-one is really in control.

Agreed.
 
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cyalataque

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Who are 'they'? Are 'they' specifically targeting a select group? Should I be worried?

If I go to sleep than it's all forgotten, so maybe I should not be awake but asleep. When I do leave this earth I really hope it will be in my sleep.
They are the bankers... "Reptilians" those are fairy tales :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Want to know something? You're not self-sufficient.
After reading this, go to your garden, observe your cows, observe your sheep, appreciate your trees... Can you go to the river and just drink the water?
Tell me now, are there right-wing and left-wing forces that control all your livestock and what you eat when you are self-sufficient?

When you understand this, more questions will arise... simply observe society, the answer will come on its own.
 

Arnoud

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They are the bankers... "Reptilians" those are fairy tales :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Want to know something? You're not self-sufficient.
After reading this, go to your garden, observe your cows, observe your sheep, appreciate your trees... Can you go to the river and just drink the water?
Tell me now, are there right-wing and left-wing forces that control all your livestock and what you eat when you are self-sufficient?

When you understand this, more questions will arise... simply observe society, the answer will come on its own.
So Bankers want to exterminate millions of people? Just random folks or a specific group?
 

cyalataque

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Feb 15, 2026
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So Bankers want to exterminate millions of people? Just random folks or a specific group?
It all depends on whether you are very dependent or not.

Notice that your president (that person you think represents you) is acting in ways that don't benefit you at all, and that every decision isn't his own; rather, it's imposed on him.

You might say, "But they can't make everyone happy." Well, look again; there's something hidden there: "dependency."
 

Arnoud

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It all depends on whether you are very dependent or not.

Notice that your president (that person you think represents you) is acting in ways that don't benefit you at all, and that every decision isn't his own; rather, it's imposed on him.

You might say, "But they can't make everyone happy." Well, look again; there's something hidden there: "dependency."
So 'the bankers' want to kill all the non dependent people I assume you are saying?
 

Arnoud

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If you're not self-sufficient, what more can you expect? Nobody's going to give you food, because everyone believes that nothing is free.
Did you go ask the banks for food? Tell me
Well I tried but your not really concrete, I'm out. Good luck Don Quichot, may the force be with you ;)