Cleanup

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Hi guys,

Today we have done some clean-up in the Upcoming Releases section of the forum, you may get a notification of thread removals. We removed old threads containing 0 replies. Not only does this help keep things less cluttered, but we are also doing some database work and it's helping us free up some space.

P.S. Apologies if we removed something new by mistake.
 
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Tievb21

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This is absolutely pathetic!!!!

Geez guys. On the OG forum gems were discovered years after the thread was made even if hadn't gotten any attention and after that people could start hearing the track and get to know the artist.

This doesn't make any sense and this come from being Administrator on a XenForo community for years and close to the owner, I can not understand the real reason behind such decision.

I hope it's the last time. I wanna hit my head to the wall by how wrong this decision is for a forum of this kind. "Do not attempt to post again" made me facepalm myself. wtf
 

Hensmon

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Haha sorry man. You can blame @Gagi, he got OCD from all the 0 replies and went on a cleaning frenzy 😅

But remember this was jus the upcoming release section, not the classics section where indeed the unknown or un-clicked ones can still be uncovered.

The UR section though had a lot of dead releases, some with less than 30 views, so maybe there was a case for it. I understand where you are coming from though, we will think about it a bit more next time.
 

Hot Tuna

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I think this is a good move.

Based on current activity, if there really is a gem out there I think there is a high chance it will get at least one reply. I think it's more of a shame if a gem gets missed upon its release because a ton of 0-replies Armada/FSOE releases buried it.
 
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dmgtz96

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trancefix cleanup.png
 

Gagi

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Yes, I was the one who did this. I will explain why.
I think this is a good move.

Based on current activity, if there really is a gem out there I think there is a high chance it will get at least one reply. I think it's more of a shame if a gem gets missed upon its release because a ton of 0-replies Armada/FSOE releases buried it.
This more or less sums it up. Truth be told, some gems were indeed removed, and because they were missed because of a million of other threads. More than a third of threads in the UR section had 0 replies with not a lot of views, which I thought was a lot.

And while we appreciate users posting new releases for us to enjoy and talk about (I personally discover most of new trance here), there were simply too many releases to sift through and talk about individually. This is why we introduced a 3-per-day limit - and most of the stuff I removed was posted before its introduction. Moreover, it was mostly obvious self-promotion and unknown stuff nobody cared to check out for months. Even some of my own threads.

Does this change anything for the users? I don't think so. I doubt anyone digs around the Upcoming Releases section archive, especially with lots of new releases every week. Now, if they wish to do so, they can do it more easily.

Did I think this through completely? No. But ever since we restarted this place, we tried to encourage discussion and quality over quantity. I don't think most of you would disagree with me on that - it's what the forum is for.

Did I overlook some nuances and potential issues? For sure. For example, the reaction scores (number of thanks) have decreased, and even though it's unimportant to me, maybe some of you like these sort of stats. I also forgot about the oh-so-important SEO (because millions google about an unknown artist/label/release). I also completely forgot about the lurkers - registered or not - and how the threads could have provided some value to them (without me knowing).

And last but most important, I forgot that me deleting old non-commented threads could really upset some people. I really didn't think it would be such a big deal, or that it would make someone angry. It's not that I don't value your work. You're how I discover most of new trance music. It's just that these threads didn't seem to be commented on by anyone, and since there were a lot of them, I just thought I would clean this section up. It's just that.

For the record, I don't think there was a lot of FSOE stuff that got removed. This is SteroidFix after all! And @Tievb21 yeah that "do not attempt reposting" was a bit silly but how else do you get a point across in very little words? Didn't even think that through.

And to finish this press conference off, I wanna say that I want what all of you want - a place where everyone can discover, share and comment on great music.

P.S. If you have anything else for/against this, or some concrete arguments, don't be afraid to speak up.
 

Magnevi

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I see the main problem that lies behind this is: some users post way too many threads. The site is not a database. It's a forum.

There are multiple threads where I have asked "Ok. So why did you post this?". I ask it, because a topic with no text at all, and only a youtube embed in it, is rather... empty, demotivating. How can you start a conversation by saying nothing? How can you expect a reply? In my eyes users should post music that they want to share. For any reason. Because they like it so much. Or because it's controversial, remarkable. The reason can be anything. Just as long as there is one.

But currently most threads are made without any reason. New track. So here's the thread. Youtube embed. Done.

Those users should realize that their threads are not looked at much. It's too many threads, so users don't check these topics. So for this reason I understand this clean-up thing. Of course the odd thread with great music got deleted now. That's too bad. But if people would stick to posting only worthy stuff, this problem wouldn't have accured. It's a result of the mass-posting.
 

Hensmon

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I think I have mentioned to you before @Magnevi that I slightly disagree. I think the forum can be both a database for releases and a forum to share/discuss the more meaningful stuff. I use it equally for both.

If this was 2000 and users we were seeing 20 releases per day in the UR thread we would have no problem because most of it would be excellent music. The problem is quality not quantity. Bring back HOOJ choons.
 
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Gagi

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Ideally it's a combination of both, catalogue and discussion. But as you said, quality matters. The ideal scenario would be if it was all/mostly amazing music - and then everyone would be more motivated to discuss and discover new stuff. But let's not go there yet...
 
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Peenuts

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Bit late to the discussion. Honestly i do think a clean-up from time to time is beneficial. Speaking for myself at least, on the rare occasion i trawl over some of the older threads, i'm more interested in seeing how others reacted to a track at a certain point in time.

For all the zero reply threads i think there's very little incentive to revisit them. If i wanted to do a thorough search on music from a particular artist, Discogs is a much more organised and complete resource anyway. The discussion is what makes the forum a memorable place, not the quantity of music being posted.
 

dmgtz96

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For all the zero reply threads i think there's very little incentive to revisit them. If i wanted to do a thorough search on music from a particular artist, Discogs is a much more organised and complete resource anyway. The discussion is what makes the forum a memorable place, not the quantity of music being posted.
Nervously responds to his own threads that have 0 replies
 
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Propeller

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I don't see how UR can be both a forum and a database. If there are 1000 new trance releases per month, as the stats in another thread seemed to suggest, does that mean we should have close to 1000 posts a month in UR?!

A forum is a forum, a place where like minded people meet to discuss music. For this purpose you don't want the place to be spammed with low quality material. Really, if I wanted to keep up to date with new releases I could listen to any number of weekly DJ podcasts, subscribe to a huge number of youtube channels or just trawl through the huge database on beatport or discogs. In fact, I do spend some time doing this and can easily find stuff that I like.

I would even go so far as suggesting that posts in UR be vetted by the moderators before being approved and posted, as some FB groups do with new posts. You post a new release, the moderators look at it and if it's the 10th FSOE track posted in a week then you don't approve. It matters what kind of music gets posted because the moderators have said that this place is for promoting quality, underground music and a lot of members would agree. It matters to the scene and artists to give spotlight to quality material.

I'd much rather have vetting than every time a new ASOT/FSOE episode is released someone posts 10 different tracks from it in UR, most of which sound the same. And then these threads usually don't draw any meaningful discussion but instead comments such as release date, artwork update, label info, artist info, etc. It defeats the purpose of a forum.
 

Gagi

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Completely agree @Propeller, you have a lot of good points there.

However, we also have to think of the lurkers (registered or not), and attracting new members here constantly. If we don't have enough new activity, the forum would die slowly but surely. I found this forum by googling for release dates of trance tracks. Lurked it for a while and then I decided to register. And here I am, almost 9 years later, being one of the few to manage this place. Think about how you decided to register. People don't always get drawn into discussion from the get-go. It's a (slow) process.

In my (relatively short) 9 years, I've seen a lot of regulars leave this place. And, truth be told, who knows if I'll be one of them. I already considered it a couple of times. And when life happens, or when tastes shift, I don't think it will be worth the time and effort anymore. And when there's a couple of us who just decide to leave, we need new members to keep it alive.

The problem with "vetting" (although it is a good idea) is who is then the moderator, who chooses what gets posted? A single person? Taste is subjective... A couple of them? Who has that amount of time or patience, to listen to 20 (crappy) releases almost every day, and to coordinate with the rest of the team in order to reach a conclusion? I for sure don't want to participate in that. It's just too time-consuming.

It's definitely not easy coming up with a perfect solution. There's a trade-off to any decision. So you can either discuss forever (because there is no clear solution), or just pick one solution, go with it and hope for the best.
 

Propeller

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I think vetting would work as long as moderators broadly agreed on what constituted "quality" trance/prog, which by the looks of things you already do. And you all seem to agree already on what constitutes low quality music, i.e. steroid trance. And vetting seems to work on FB groups where the volume of traffic and membership numbers are much higher. I don't see why it wouldn't work with a smaller forum like this.

If you're looking for extra help with moderating then you could ask more people to join. Certainly, I'd be happy to join the team and help out. You can tell from listening to a short clip whether the track has a sledgehammer kick :)
Vetting would force people to think more about whether the music they choose is in keeping with the forum ethos. If people want to support the place, great. If not they can always go to some ASOT forum and gush about the latest Armin track there.:)

If you think about it, every single DJ set, youtube channel and podcast works on the basis of vetting, showcasing only certain releases. It would be entirely natural for a forum like this do the same.
 
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Gagi

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But what happens to those who create like 95% of the threads? They could feel unappreciated. And who does the work they do when they don't want to do it anymore?

Bit of a devil's advocate here - we're basically in agreement - but as you can see there are quite a couple of things that have to be considered.

I'd also love to see other admins' perspective on this. @Hensmon @Magnevi @Katadunkass
 
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Propeller

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I mean, even if admin took it upon themselves to create more threads if vetting was introduced, it would still be better than having 95% of threads being sledgehammer trance posted by the same people and getting 0 responses.

Really, it's not difficult for an admin to go to a youtube channel like progressive astronaut, j'teme trance, flick through solarstone's podcast, browse beatport/bandcamp and post 20 track per week in UR. They don't have to be strictly "upcoming" releases either and you could go back a couple of years and pick the best tracks.

I reckon it would take me about 10 minutes to find 20 releases each week.