Frustrated with not getting a 'genuine' trance sound

[Magdelayna]

Yeah,you cant make decent sounding,well mastered music using just cheap earbuds...you need at least decent headphones and monitors. Im talking in the £200-500 range.

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

I’m sorry but I find this very bad advise. If you could mix professionally with 30 euro earplugs, why would professional mastering engineers spend 1000+ on a monitor?

I made music on crap monitors before. You think it sounds good but it’s weak, or way too bass heavy. Thin, flat.

If you want to produce, the number one equipment advice for me is: good monitors. Mid-price-range is enough for us. Don’t have to be 1.000 of course.

All cool! Your opinion isnt wrong but if you advise people to get good monitors please also tell them they need to treat their room. Otherwise this will make no sense what so ever. Good headhones would be a better choice then and maybe Sonarworks Reference ID too. Sony MDR-7506 would be a valid (not too expensive, arround 100 bucks) choice for example but this guy already has DT990s, should also work.

I was not talking about mastering, thats a whole other story. You will most likely use a service anyways.

Grammy winning Engineers out there often mix on NS10s which sound like absolute poop, or even on auratones and there is a thing about it. Im talking Bob Clearmountain, Chris Lord Alge, Jesse Ray Ernstner etc.

I recently did send a mix to Beau Thomas from TenEightSeven Mastering. This guy is very well known and experienced (especially in the british DNB scene). Got my master returned and got told it "sounds great". I mixed the track on a gaming headset and checked it on DT770s, my phone etc. for translation. This works as long as you know your shit.

This is just my opinion but I was always a bit different when it comes to this stuff, thats nothing new. I mixed stuff in train rides and it still got accepted by labels and even landed on CD. My approach cant be too wrong and if someone doesnt have a lot of money for fancy monitors this should never stop him from working on his music and mixing because thats the actual bad advice.

 

[Bobby Summa]

All cool! Your opinion isnt wrong but if you advise people to get good monitors please also tell them they need to treat their room. Otherwise this will make no sense what so ever. Good headhones would be a better choice then and maybe Sonarworks Reference ID too. Sony MDR-7506 would be a valid (not too expensive, arround 100 bucks) choice for example but this guy already has DT990s, should also work.

I was not talking about mastering, thats a whole other story. You will most likely use a service anyways.

Grammy winning Engineers out there often mix on NS10s which sound like absolute poop, or even on auratones and there is a thing about it. Im talking Bob Clearmountain, Chris Lord Alge, Jesse Ray Ernstner etc.

I recently did send a mix to Beau Thomas from TenEightSeven Mastering. This guy is very well known and experienced (especially in the british DNB scene). Got my master returned and got told it "sounds great". I mixed the track on a gaming headset and checked it on DT770s, my phone etc. for translation. This works as long as you know your shit.

This is just my opinion but I was always a bit different when it comes to this stuff, thats nothing new. I mixed stuff in train rides and it still got accepted by labels and even landed on CD. My approach cant be too wrong and if someone doesnt have a lot of money for fancy monitors this should never stop him from working on his music and mixing because thats the actual bad advice.

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

@Bobby Summa Did you forget your text?

 

[Bobby Summa]

@Bobby Summa Did you forget your text?

Ah yes, tried to highlight relevant text, failed and decided to watch the football lol. Im so good at messing up forums im probably going to be banned lol.

I was going to ask @Magnevi . ( atleast i can tag people lol)

Do engineers use yamaha ns10s because although they don’t sound great, do they have a completely neutral response. Hearing all frequencies balanced and accurate but not presented in an exciting way?

Im guessing that must be why.

 

[Recharge]

Ok this might help a lot. Will just released a tutorial showing how to recreate some of the most iconic synth from some of the most iconic trance songs.

Edit: My bad is an old tutorial that I somehow missed. Still some amazing stuff here:

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

Ah yes, tried to highlight relevant text, failed and decided to watch the football lol. Im so good at messing up forums im probably going to be banned lol.

I was going to ask @Magnevi . ( atleast i can tag people lol)

Do engineers use yamaha ns10s because although they don’t sound great, do they have a completely neutral response. Hearing all frequencies balanced and accurate but not presented in an exciting way?

Im guessing that must be why.

The whole Yamaha NS10 topic is a big big rabbit hole. There are hundred different opinions out there on why those things work, or not. A lot of people hate them, a lot of people love them. I count myself to the lovers and I also use them. I heard them first in a proffesional recording studio and since then never really could say goodbye to those ...

NS10s are not neutral/flat ... like at all. They are very mid-rangy, the low end rolls off at literally 60hz or so ... there is basically no low end on those things. You wanna hear 30hz? Forget it, no chance. Still this speaker is very very revealing and has a great time-domain accuracy. If something sounds shit on those you can most likely be sure it is actual shit. I noticed this too: songs which are mixed great (and are known for this) sound great on those and stuff which is not just dont. "Michael Jackson - Thriller" sounds amazing on those things for example. So you are basically right they are somewhat accurate in their own way but dont sound exciting at all. What is very interesting is that if you mix your stuff on those the low end will basically never sound bad, its kinda weird because you dont really even mix it. I think it was Chris Lord Alge who once said "fuck your low end no one cares" or something like this for exact this reason. You nail the low-mids you nail everything else. Magic happens in the mids not the low or high frequencies. I for example mix the lower stuff of the spectrum on headphones and most of the time thats a thing of minutes.

There is also a lot you can do wrong with those things. According to the original yamaha manual those things belong in a bookshelf very close to the wall. This supports the low-mids a lot. You wouldnt want to have those kind of resonance and stuff with some active KRKs or whatever (because they have extended bass) but with those its intentional. NS10s also work very well in small rooms (like my apartment), they translate extremely well even without much acoustic treatment because they were designed for this. Originally NS10s werent even supposed to be studio speakers. If you drive them on a console bridge the console will extend the bass a little (just like a bookshelf) and thats why you mostly see them on laying on there. I saw pictures of people running them on absorber plates which I never understood since its not intended this way. Those are very very unconventional speakers to say the least.

The only reason I use them is because I know them (for years) and never worked with anything else. I am also not recommending those to others because they are so unconventional. But thats the whole point of my general thinking: It doesnt matter what you use, your results matter and good results come from skill not from super high end and expensive equipment. NS10s are the perfect proof for this.

I bet: Give Bob Clearmountain a laptop and Apple Earpods + Pro Tools and this guy will mix better stuff on this then this whole forum combined.

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

Ok this might help a lot. Will just released a tutorial showing how to recreate some of the most iconic synth from some of the most iconic trance songs.

Edit: My bad is an old tutorial that I somehow missed. Still some amazing stuff here:

Thats acctually great, I dig this.

 

[LostLegend]

Some interesting points on the headphone/monitor debate.
I've always been of the mind that you should use what is appropriate for where you are in your 'journey' as a producer.

A regular home set of headphones and or speakers is fine for a beginner just getting started, but as you progress, you are going to want to upgrade at some some point.

While you can point out examples of producers who have made great tracks using budget playback devices, it's important to remember that if you can afford to get yourself some proper production level headphones/monitors then you should.
It is possible to create a good mix using crappy speakers, that doesn't mean you should. You are placing yourself at a disadvantage.
Kinda like trying to beat Dark Souls on a guitar hero controller, if you get a kick out of it, then fine. Otherwise why put yourself at such a needless disadvantage if you can afford to upgrade?

if you advise people to get good monitors please also tell them they need to treat their room. Otherwise this will make no sense what so ever.

Treating your room will help, but saying it 'makes no sense not to' is going to the extreme.
Decent monitors will be better then using your home stereo speakers. Treating your room or taking the time to understand correct speaker placement and the like will take it a step further.
Use what is appropriate for your skill level and what your budget allows.

Also, don't produce on earbuds ffs.

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

While you can point out examples of producers who have made great tracks using budget playback devices, it's important to remember that if you can afford to get yourself some proper production level headphones/monitors then you should.
It is possible to create a good mix using crappy speakers, that doesn't mean you should. You are placing yourself at a disadvantage.
Kinda like trying to beat Dark Souls on a guitar hero controller, if you get a kick out of it, then fine. Otherwise why put yourself at such a needless disadvantage if you can afford to upgrade?

You could also place yourself at a big disatvantage when mixing in an unoptimized room. All frequencies will sound way different then they acctually should. So no matter how you do it, you do it wrong.

Its a difficult topic but you bring it to a good point: Use what is appropiate and what you can.

The only thing which I think is really unfair is telling people they need this and that so they can properly make good music because thats a big lie. This just takes the motivation from others and this shouldnt be the goal. We dont know how financially stable OP and if this is even affordable in any means. There is war, inflation ... times are hard.

And honestly: I dont even think his mixing is too bad. I think the sound design is a way more important case in his case. The main leads/supersaws sound a bit off as well as the general melody but from a technical side I think this is absolute fine!

 

[Magdelayna]

A decent pair of Senny headphones and some Yamaha monitors isnt gonna break the bank,and its the minimum you need imo. I dont even know why you need to talk about £30 earbuds. A person cant be that seriously into making music if theyre using budget stuff like that.

 

[Recharge]

I stand behind my Sennheiser hd 25 - very comfortable and light weight, budgeted around 100 pounds, build to last.

I use them for everything actually 10-12 hours daily.

 

[Edms]

Spatialsound-i have listened to first track and second track,found that they are really ok.
Where you do see a problem? In a choosing of sounds? If yes then go to Dune cm/be first.
It is the same as 2000nd synths. Tal Mod also is for me sounding like Jp 8000.
Fxes:Tal delays, Orilriver reverb,Molot,Loudmax, Limiter nr 6, Bassline from tone fx, Span, Luftkus.
Native stuff for chorus etc,

If you look more about consistency , premaster-you can look for mastering it on some label.
Talk for example with Barry from Hyper reality records.

 

[unitedtrancedivision]

Spatialsound-i have listened to first track and second track,found that they are really ok.
Where you do see a problem? In a choosing of sounds? If yes then go to Dune cm/be first.
It is the same as 2000nd synths. Tal Mod also is for me sounding like Jp 8000.
Fxes:Tal delays, Orilriver reverb,Molot,Loudmax, Limiter nr 6, Bassline from tone fx, Span, Luftkus.
Native stuff for chorus etc,

If you look more about consistency , premaster-you can look for mastering it on some label.
Talk for example with Barry from Hyper reality records.

Thank you for pointing this out. I also thought it was totally OK! You know Barry? I got a release coming on ARR pretty soon

 

[thefica]

To me the 2nd track (Believe in Minds one) sounds much more 2000's than the first one. The Acids, the lead sound and riff sound totally on point to me so more of what you've done in that track than the first!! Also as someone else mentioned mixing in the first track is not great, seems much better in the 2nd (Mixing well is something I also struggle mightily with).