dmgtz96

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I feel it's unfair to attack all Russian citizens. Many of them don't support the war at all and are being prosecuted for it by the government. As for dj's doing gigs in the country, i would say it's better to not go there and play and take a stand against the government, obviously some of them are choosing to do so.
Right, I guess it should be implied that "Russia" refers to specifically the Russian government, not the Russian people. The same goes for China. When people criticize "China" they're talking about the actual government, not the people.
 

Gagi

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It's always easier to generalize. If you say it's the entire country, it gives you the ability to do whatever you want to do against it - impose sanctions, deliver weapons to the other country, or ban Dostoevsky's books from college, judge DJs or whatever. If you say only the government is at fault, how do you fight against that?

Please don't come to me saying "oh you are pro-Russia", I'm just analyzing the situation and the nature of propaganda, nothing more. It applies to everyone.

And I seem to quite agree with @brandonl here.
 

dmgtz96

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It's always easier to generalize. If you say it's the entire country, it gives you the ability to do whatever you want to do against it - impose sanctions, deliver weapons to the other country, or ban Dostoevsky's books from college, judge DJs or whatever. If you say only the government is at fault, how do you fight against that?

Please don't come to me saying "oh you are pro-Russia", I'm just analyzing the situation and the nature of propaganda, nothing more. It applies to everyone.

And I seem to quite agree with @brandonl here.
There's no devil's advocate when it comes to the Rusdia, Ukraine war.

Edit: no both sides-ing either
 

Magnevi

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i don’t think it’s just easier. The people in Russia hold the power. If all Russians protest against war, there would be no war.

So we have to reach these people. And media doesn’t work. So let’s try other means. Maybe Russian citizens come to realize they are in a WAR if the whole world turns its back on the country.

That’s the reason to point to the whole country. To exclude the whole country from sports, events, everything.

If only 0,01% of the population protests… then Russia puts their own people in jail. The group is too small.

But if 200.000.000 people protest and go against their own leaders, then the war is over?
 

Gagi

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i don’t think it’s just easier. The people in Russia hold the power. If all Russians protest against war, there would be no war.

So we have to reach these people. And media doesn’t work. So let’s try other means. Maybe Russian citizens come to realize they are in a WAR if the whole world turns its back on the country.

That’s the reason to point to the whole country. To exclude the whole country from sports, events, everything.

If only 0,01% of the population protests… then Russia puts their own people in jail. The group is too small.

But if 200.000.000 people protest and go against their own leaders, then the war is over?
Yeah, this is more or less what I meant. Blaming entire Russia enables the West to do that.
 

jetflag

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What are your thoughts about this?
I think you’re letting yourself be consumed by sheer hatred and binary thinking away from who your real enemies are/is, who brought this upon you basically, and into embracing and encouraging solutions that will, in the end, hurt you and your country more as a result. This goes for @dmgtz96 aswell and the false presumption of there being no both sides in this conflict.

There’s always two sides. No matter how much Russian or Western propaganda would like you to think that there’s not and only absolutes of good and evil exists. But that aside for this thread.

As for should you let foreign Dj’s play in Russia during a time of war.

The presumption is that this festival and its DJ’s will “support” instead of undermine the Russian war effort and that western cancellation and sanctions are the best method to hurt the Putin regime.

Well lets dive into that a bit.

So this festival can be boiled down in to two segments. Economy (does it pay for the war) and Culture (does it promote the war)

Economics. The Russian economy is, Courtesy of western sanctions, Booming. The Rubble has never been this high. So its a bit hard to fathom that this private festival attractive to the more liberal circles of Russia will in any way meaningfully contribute, if at all, to the war effort. Its not State funded, and speaking from experience this will probably not see a single tax dollar returned to the government.

Then there’s Culture. Part of what fuels the Russian propaganda machine is the idea of the “cancellation of Russia” and Putin’s regime is milking this extensively. Basically the message is: “See? The west Hates you! Normal Russian citizens, and wants to destroy you, I, the Great Leader, love you and will save you”. Basically: By wanting to cancel Foreign Trance Dj’s you’re basically playing into the hands of Putin, who will, in contrast to the economic side, definitely use that for (much needed) morale and motivation.

Here’s an interesting little recent tidbit example of that in case you think I’m talking bollocks:


Now, this is in Russian but I’m sure @Enlusion or any other Russian user can translate this for anyone who won’t take my word for it. This concert statement of Yuri Shevchuk, leader of the DDT rock band that thrived in former USSR for 40 years and the reaction of the concergoers is a clear barometer how Russian youth feels about war. Rock in USSR was a weapon of discontent and subversion of the official ideology. DDT concerts are now suspended by Russian officials.

Make no mistake, This war and by extend the culture that accompanies it will drag on as long as Putin is in office and It was to a large extend also Western culture and music that brought down the USSR apparatus, highlight being arguably the Berlin wall, another nice example of a Russian regime being brought to its knees by western influence. .

Cancel culturing foreign trance Dj’s and music from Russia is precisely what you don’t want to do.

@Uplifted , If you feel like doing something and if you feel helpless at seeing trance music being brought to your hated enemy which, believe it or not, I can actually relate too, My suggestion is to approach them individually will generousity, kindness and politeness. Explain your grievences that way get them on your side and maybe (if they’re safety isn’t too much compromised) will make an anti war/ anti big government (who’s ultimately the one responsible for this/these/all wars) statement at the concert, bringing more Russians to your side of the isle and against the big government(s) that have brought this Horror upon you and you Country.


my 2 cents.
 

EnigmaState

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Without getting too political, as humans, we're very good at generalising, blaming, and very quick to pick sides.

Osama Bin Laden >> The entire country of Syria.
Kim Jong-Un >> The entire country of North Korea.
COVID >> The entire country of China
Putin >> The entire country of Russia

I dont condone in the slightest what Putin himself is doing, but I wouldnt generalise the hatred towards the normal Russian person in the street.
As for Artists/DJ's doing a gig in Russia, its basically down to an opinion of morals and principles.
Morally I wouldnt, but that is me.
 
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uplifteeng

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Shame on those artists who sold their soul to perform in Russia.
You will never be forgotten. Trance scene will always remember you for this.
Let's spread the word so everybody will know these so called 'artists'.
Shame on you, Heatbat.
Shame on you, Philippe El Sisi
Shame on you, Omar Sherif
Shame on you, Ahmed Helmy
 

Uplifted

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Please don’t tell me thats is you under an alt account @Uplifted ? ^
Damn it I thought noone will notice if I change the last letter to "eng" and hide my avatar 🤣

I wouldnt generalise the hatred towards the normal Russian person in the street
As @Magnevi said:
If only 0,01% of the population protests… then Russia puts their own people in jail. The group is too small.

But if 200.000.000 people protest and go against their own leaders, then the war is over?


As I noticed, nowadays russians have now divided into three categories:

1. The ones who want USSR back, want to conquer the WORLD, suffer with "whataboutism", ask "where have you been for 8 years", and follow prorussian media, and their favourite propagandists Solovyov and Skabeeva. Mostly these are elder people, but they can be teaching their children the same shit;

2. The ones who're trying to fight the regime (and later being caught by OMON or drafted into army since yesterday);

3. The ones who say "I'm not interested in politics" and continue living a "normal" life as if nothing is happening. When they see the pictures of ukrainian destroyed infrastructure they'll usually say smth like "damn, that's bad...", "we don't know what really is happening, media shows one thing and there could be another", or "make love not war", "Ukraine should be friends with russia" etc. They don't care that more then 1200 big companies have already stopped working with russia, and might feel the impact only with time. Unfortunately this category of russians is the most numerous.

Russian media is doing everything to turn them against the world. The ruscists are now making fake "referendums" as if ukrainian eastern cities want to join russia. All the "ukrainian-spirited" people are held in captivities. Only the prorussians are able to vote - and they're taking most of the voters from russia.

Anyways fuck this country, fuck all the citizens who are supporting putin and fuck all people who are still thinking this is a denazification / demilitarization operation.

I sincerely hope my non-brainwashed russian friends will just immigrate the fuck out of that shithole and live a normal life in a civilized country.
 
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dmgtz96

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There’s always two sides. No matter how much Russian or Western propaganda would like you to think that there’s not and only absolutes of good and evil exists. But that aside for this thread.
No. I refuse to give consideration to the side that stands for dictatorship and authoritarianism.

I'm not saying all Russians are. Clearly there's an immigration crisis happening in Europe right now with Russian refugees. It's up to the surrounding countries to figure out if they want to accept the Russian refugees or not.
 

jetflag

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No. I refuse to give consideration to the side that stands for dictatorship and authoritarianism..
Nobody’s asking you too. But please don’t be so horribly naive to think that Putin and his regime are the sole and only evil players in this horrible war and run up to it.

Or do, whatever 🤷 just know that that’s an incredibly simplistic way of looking at this
 

jetflag

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still thinking this is a denazification / demilitarization operation.
It, but also it’s prehoc revolution and regime change has nothing to do with a handful of azov fundamentalists and anyone who thinks that is an idiot, Russian or otherwise.

this war is about two things. 1 strategic ground and most importantly 2. Gas.

and Ukraine and it’s people can burn for the powers that be for it
 

LostLegend

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It, but also it’s prehoc revolution and regime change has nothing to do with a handful of azov fundamentalists and anyone who thinks that is an idiot, Russian or otherwise.

this war is about two things. 1 strategic ground and most importantly 2. Gas.

and Ukraine and it’s people can burn for the powers that be for it
Fair to say there are a lot of complexities to this whole conflict. There was a lot to do with the original Nord Stream pipeline running through Ukraine wasn't there?
I believe there was some talk of Gas reserves being found in Crimea and UKR wanting to undercut RUS by piping their own supply to Europe - hence the rush to build the convoluted Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Am I in the right ballpark there?

Either way, the whole 'De-Nazification' line has always been amusing to me given that Zelensky is Jewish and the sheer amount of ultra right wing groups operating in RU. Christ, try going to any country that's popular with Russian tourists, take a walk on the beach and keep count of how many juiced up Russian fellas you see sporting swastika or deaths head tattoos. I have, it's ridiculous.
Also sending in the Wagner group, whose leader has a Waffen SS tattoo is pretty telling!

To get back to the topic in hand, I think lots of people have morals with a price value attached. We see that with Qatar hosting a World Cup, with the Saudi regime buying football clubs and with celebrities and athletes having to apologise for calling out China's ethnic cleansing of the Uighurs.

Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near the place. As a gay man, I have to do a little extra research before going abroad anywhere and I certainly wont be going to a country where I am expected to hide who I am just to be safe.
 
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jetflag

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Either way, the whole 'De-Nazification' line has always been amusing to me given that Zelensky is Jewish
yeah its an absolute nonsense reason. Not to say that there aren't, like the Azov brigade Ukrainian Nazi's aswell (got a handfull in the asylum seeker centre that my dad works at, they where consequently told to cover them the F up or find another country to flee too) but the reason for this invasion has been brewing since 2008 or so and it has, like most geopolitical conflicts, nothing to do with ideology and everything to do with oil (or gas)
 
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Recharge

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There is a lot to unpack here.

On the top my head Ahmed Helmy releases primarily on Russian labels so what is he supposed to do stop releasing/performing?

Interesting line up with so many Egyptians. There probably is a reason for that, if someone already listed it I am going to comeback later and read the whole thread.

On top of my head I am going to assume they have a lot of listeners/followers like Magdelayna mentioned above.
 

dmgtz96

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Nobody’s asking you too. But please don’t be so horribly naive to think that Putin and his regime are the sole and only evil players in this horrible war and run up to it.

Or do, whatever 🤷 just know that that’s an incredibly simplistic way of looking at this
I view your viewpoint as a cop-out/an excuse to do nothing about the problem that is happening

If everyone is evil, then why do anything? and we shouldn't actually think that way because that's just a race to the bottom
 

jetflag

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I view your viewpoint as a cop-out/an excuse to do nothing about the problem that is happening

If everyone is evil, then why do anything? and we shouldn't actually think that way because that's just a race to the bottom
well thats a pretty skewed and frankly retarded way of looking at "my viewpoint" since I have suggested things what we should and could do about the problem. where have I actually suggested we should do nothing precisely?

Your viewpoint however, is a whitewash/ conveniently shrug-the-rest-under-the-carpet way of looking at it.

If there's only one big evil enemy we can just solely focus on that and comfortably forget the rest of the players who brought forth this mess with their endless powergrabbing abroad in places where they had no business being. Because thats nice and easy and you don't have to think about it too much.

forget about the instigators and solely focus on the end aggressor.

how convenient....
 
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