What's on your mind today?

[Magnevi]

Who would have thought that in these modern times we live in. And for what?

Yeah. This.

 

[dmgtz96]

What's worse is that the solution to this whole post-cold war debacle is childishly simpel.

Sign a treaty that sais Ukraine can, under no circumstances become an active NATO member, but that they will fall under both NATO and RF protection in case of invasion.

Genuinely curious (I don't know anything about the geopolitics of the area). Why would Ukraine accept not being an active NATO member?
I mean, with the invasion/war I could see them accepting those terms... but why would they accept that deal unless they were being actively threatened/forced?

edit: and wouldn't Russia care more about Ukraine having protectorates, instead of Ukraine's official status as a NATO member?

 

[Gagi]

What's worse is that the solution to this whole post-cold war debacle is childishly simpel.

Sign a treaty that sais Ukraine can, under no circumstances become an active NATO member, but that they will fall under both NATO and RF protection in case of invasion.

-Ukraine has its protector(ates)
-Russia has its buffer zone & parity back.
-EU has its trade

Everybody wins. But no, we have to again do it the hard way it seems

If only there weren't economic and political interests...

 

[jetflag]

Genuinely curious (I don't know anything about the geopolitics of the area). Why would Ukraine accept not being an active NATO member?

They'd have no choice in the matter..Getting to be a member of NATO isn't a right every country just has based on its desire to join. It is (like most elitist clubs) essentially a privilege you're granted. They have the right to file for application, but NATO reserves the right to either accept or reject them.

I mean, with the invasion/war I could see them accepting those terms... but why would they accept that deal unless they were being actively threatened/forced?

edit: and wouldn't Russia care more about Ukraine having protectorates, instead of Ukraine's official status as a NATO member?

Its a bit like the Cuban missile crisis only less fleshed out. Russia cares about not having NATO bases/missile installations etc. on its doorstep. It sees NATO's developments towards their borders from the last 30 years as violation of "the agreements" (though there was actually never something specifically signed between bush/gorbatjov) made between the US en then USSR in 1990.

As for protectorates, Russia (putin) cares mainly about Russia and its sphere of influence.

 

[Sleepy Robot]

Russia is the largest country on earth and has nukes. NATO is a defence pact. Why would Russia feel threatened at all?

Putin just can't handle a Ukrain that would become a working democracy and has ties with Western Europe.

 

[jetflag]

Russia is the largest country on earth and has nukes. NATO is a defense pact. Why would Russia feel threatened at all?

Putin just can't handle an Ukrain that would become a working democracy and has ties with Western Europe.

NATO too has nukes and isn't just a defence pact, At least not anymore. NATO has on multible occasions, against the wishes of the UN security council even, attacked non-NATO countries without them having struck NATO territory first.

But thats not even the main issue in this scenario. The main problem for Putin is the anti-missile shield that NATO has slowly been crawling around Russia,

disrupting nuclear parity between Russia and NATO to the advantage of NATO. This is also why Russia didn't have a huge problem with the Baltic States being democracies and part of NATO, as they're on both sides surrounded by Russia and as such not much of a threat. (not that they where happy about it either, but it didn't push tanks acroxx the border)

 

[Gagi]

NATO has on multible occasions, against the wishes of the UN security council even, attacked non-NATO countries without them having struck NATO territory first.

Yup. They attacked military infrastructure first, then strategic infrastructure and resources (like oil refineries), and then just everything and anything, including bridges, public TV building, Chinese embassy, random houses that got in the way...

 

[Sleepy Robot]

NATO too has nukes and isn't just a defence pact, At least not anymore. NATO has on multible occasions, against the wishes of the UN security council even, attacked non-NATO countries without them having struck NATO territory first.

But thats not even the main issue in this scenario. The main problem for Putin is the anti-missile shield that NATO has slowly been crawling around Russia,

disrupting nuclear parity between Russia and NATO to the advantage of NATO. This is also why Russia didn't have a huge problem with the Baltic States being democracies and part of NATO, as they're on both sides surrounded by Russia and as such not much of a threat. (not that they where happy about it either, but it didn't push tanks acroxx the border)

I guess your referring to the Serbia/ Kosovo war with NATO stepping in? Yes that one is still debated. But NATO would never attack Russia without being attacked first.

 

[jetflag]

I guess your referring to the Serbia/ Kosovo war with NATO stepping in? Yes that one is still debated. But NATO would never attack Russia without being attacked first.

Not just that, NATO also intervened in Libya and Afghanistan. Concerning NATO never attacking Russia unless they struck first. Correct (which is why they're only throwing sactions now) but then again neither would Russia, because it would lose against the sum total of NATO and Putin knows this. This is also why i'm not scared Russian soldiers will ever set foot in say, Poland or the Baltics.

 

[BladeRunner_]

Went to protest in front of Russian embassy which is located in my neighbourhood

 

[jetflag]

Went to protest in front of Russian embassy which is located in my neighbourhood

 

[dmgtz96]

Went to protest in front of Russian embassy which is located in my neighbourhood

we stan a politically-active citizen

 

[TRANCEBLASTER]

I was really frustrated from the situation this morning, at this point I live only 30 kilometres from a nuclear reactor on the Slovakian/Hungarian borders.

 

[Gagi]

I guess your referring to the Serbia/ Kosovo war with NATO stepping in? Yes that one is still debated. But NATO would never attack Russia without being attacked first.

Well that happened without the approval of the UN.

Look at this scenario:

An area wants to separate and become an independent country. A big force steps in, attacks and overwhelms the main country until it's brought down to its knees. Helps install a government in the main country who will cooperate with the big force. The big force helps the area separate and become an independent country, moves their soldiers there, builds a base and installs a puppet-government there as well. And the main and only reason it does that is because the main country's government doesn't share their views and likes the other side more.

Am I talking about Kosovo, Bosnia, or Ukraine?

(Ok, context/crimes matter A LOT, but usually no side is innocent - you as a big force dictate who is more evil and who should be helped and who destroyed. You pick instead of punish both...or no one.)

The point of all this is to say, the West are being given the taste of their own medicine here. War is not good, war is not just, war shouldn't have to happen in modern society. But you have to see the irony here.



Ultimately, no occupying force - East or West - will ever be better than the other. Possibly the best book I've ever read is about a bridge on a river, and the history of the bridge and the history of the area. The bridge is used as a symbol for something that's outlasted empires, occupiers and eras, and it ultimately describes the lives of ordinary people under occupation, first by the Ottomans, then by the Austro-Hungarians. The Ottomans were brutes, often using brutal means to stay in power, like live impalement and what have you, and the Austro-Hungarians were oppressive in a more silent, precise way. And even with the difference between the two "styles" of occupation, the suffering of ordinary people stayed roughly the same because of it.

Earned its writer a Nobel prize in literature.

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Unfortunately, this is what always happens. Wars come and pass, occupiers come and go, but people's suffering goes on. The sanctions will hurt people first and most. My parents felt it as well. And it will probably take years before the majority decides to vote out the president/government. All because of a "sphere of influence" and both sides wanting to have more of it.

 

[jetflag]

All because of a "sphere of influence" and both sides wanting to have more of it.

This is my take on this aswell. Putin is a terrible man and a dictator. there's a reason why most of my russian family have moved. It, however, doesn't make NATO/the EU by any means "the good guys" in this geopolitical Tale.

I think we can agree that Ukraine regardless is the victim though.

 

[dmgtz96]

Honestly, fuck Russia

 

[jetflag]

Honestly, fuck Russia

More like Fuck Putin, Your average russian doesn't at all want a war with with they consider their brothers..

 

[jetflag]

I hope @Uplifted is (going to be) ok, AFAIK, if he's in Ukraine atm he's getting drafted by Zelinski.

 

[BladeRunner_]

This is a Russian warship! Lay down your weapons and surrender! We can avoid bloodshed and casualties. If you refuse, you will be hit. Do you understand, over
- Russian warship, go fuck yourself!

Snake island. Thirteen fallen Ukrainian soldiers.
Another symbol in Ukrainian history.

Heroes do not die. Eternal glory to our brave defenders.

FUCK PUTIN!
FUCK WAR!

 

[dmgtz96]

More like Fuck Putin, Your average russian doesn't at all want a war with with they consider their brothers..

FUCK PUTIN!

My heart goes out to all the Russians who protested and will likely face arrest, and to the Russian military in Ukraine who surrended when they realized what was happening.