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[Jetflag]

Never thought your longest post ever… would be about Barbie

You’re welcome

 

[Julian Del Agranda]

You’re welcome

Didn't mean it lullig btw. But I'm sure you got that.

 

[Jetflag]

Didn't mean it lullig btw. But I'm sure you got that.

Ofcourse man, I know you longer then vandaag

 

[dmgtz96]

Thanks for the review. I have nothing to say about the summary of the movie, and tbh I had completely forgotten about the intro scene. I will respond to some of the cases you mentioned:

However…what the creator don’t (or do they?....) realize is that, in its essence…what they ended up with isn’t the type of 2016 guardian article feminist triumph….what they ended up with is basically the stronk “problematic” female conservative one, but with a pink veneer.

Case(s) in point:

- The Progressive feminist liberal ideal (barbie world) is almost eerily depicted as being wrong.. and in the end forever changed for the better of all parties by “patriarical elements”

The matriarchal utopia was wrong, but it didn't become better because of the patriarchal elements that were introduced by Ken from the real world. The Barbies realized they were not treating their Kens well and allowed Kens to participate in the government (even if at a lower court). That is also feminism. Patriarchy would have been the messed-up Barbieland that Barbie found after she returned from the real world. IF the movie had ended right there, and showed that Ken's hyper-patriarchial Barbieland was better, then yea you would be correct.

- The movie support a conclusion in where, much like Homer’s Odyssey, the protagonist voluntarily rejects Utopia, in favour of the real “problematic” world.

To Barbie, it's possible that nothing else was more important than improving the real "problematic" world.

- The story arc of the Kens is basically a righteous masculine triumph, over chocking feminist doctrine. The “oppressive matriarchy” is forever altered and made more compatible, rights and freedom given to the serfs. It’s the reverse situation of a feminist movie…unless you’re an extreme ideologue, you exit this movie with sympathy for Ken and the Ken’s, rather then him being the hated antagonist. In the movie the supposedly “pushed” ideology actually acknowledges its own oppressive shortcomings, and instead tries to negotiate/incorporate.

It's actually a feminist triumph, not necessarily a righteous masculine triumph. It would have only been a masculine triumph if it ended when the Kens took over Barbieland.

- Despite the movie starting of with the complete rejection of “problematic conservative” motherhood and “disgusting nuclear family values” it ends with not only Midge “pregnant mom barby, being accepted and vindicated. The movie actually ends with a very real world, very suggestive, I would even say, life affirming message of Barbie visiting a gynaecologist in the end.

Is, that said: this movie a Conservative post-liberal movie?

Mostly at least....Yes. This movie is, even given the not so subliminal messaging of the director and main cast, a negotiation between the two with an end conclusion supporting the latter.

What I find amazing about this is that it only is if you think about it about for a little bit, which is clearly what said initial reviewer and Shapiro didn’t. It is in that sense, quite insidious. And I genuinely don’t know if this was due to Mattel as a corporation maybe interference into not making the Barbie movie not overtly feminist (which, given it being a major antagonist in the movie doesn’t seem likely) Or Gerwig’s sheer blindless to it.


What I do know is that I recommend this movie to anyone basically, despite me having a headacke from all the plasticy pink throught the movie. The humor is often quircky/cringe, but given its subject that’s understandable. The acting on all sides was fine. And the story is, as outlined actually quite wholesome and connective, rather then devisive.

7 maybe 8 out of 10.

You're officially not a weirdo. Anecdotally, women online in social media realized their significant others were #notallmen Joe Rogan/Jordan Peterson/Andrew Tate fanboys because of their views on the Barbie movie and how they felt offended about the movie's depiction of Ken and masculinity.

 

[Archon]

It's actually a feminist triumph, not necessarily a righteous masculine triumph. It would have only been a masculine triumph if it ended when the Kens took over Barbieland.

I can't help but think that you think masculinity is something bad. Am I wrong?

Note that I am not talking about toxic masculinity or that sort of thing.

 

[dmgtz96]

I can't help but think that you think masculinity is something bad. Am I wrong?

Note that I am not talking about toxic masculinity or that sort of thing.

"Masculinity" as defined by the Internet's favorite male influencers is indistinguishable from toxic masculinity, which is the same as fragile masculinity.

Ken's Barbieland was a caricature/satire of how modern society views this specific masculinity: alcohol, sports, trying to one up one another, big loud cars (there was a Hummer in there,lol), mansplaining, trying to impress women by playing an instrument... etc, it was a very simplified depiction of the basic male bro. So if you're a guy with interests that do not fall in all of these, or are queer yourself (Michael Cera's character), you feel out of place.

So, to answer your question directly, I would say *yes*. Masculinity can be bad when it comes in the form of these basic stereotypes, when it tries to fight feminism, and when it does not allow guys with alternate/feminine interests to feel like they're also part of society.

But that's enough words. What is "masculinity" for you? In jetflag's comment, "masculinity" somehow winning over feminism is problematic, since the masculinity that fights feminism is *always* the toxic/fragile kind.

 

[Archon]

"Masculinity" as defined by the Internet's favorite male influencers is indistinguishable from toxic masculinity, which is the same as fragile masculinity.

I don't think we should really abide by definitions made by extremes, would you agree?

Shouldn't masculinity be just a set of behaviours associated mostly with the male sex (some inherited, some taught)? And everyone's behaviour falls within a spectrum (masculine-feminine). It's only a problem when we use it to judge or box in others based off of those traits, make stereotypes or glorify/vilify the traits themselves.

To me, it's just something that exists...and changes through time. It's just a construct.

The way we use it tells more about ourselves than about others.



About the movie though - haven't watched it, can't possibly comment.

 

[Jetflag]

The matriarchal utopia was wrong but it didn't become better because of the patriarchal elements that were introduced by Ken from the real world.

contradictio in terminus my friend .. it’s a utopia. Now To you personally it might be/ feel wrong
But ideologically speaking it’s The ultimate platonic form, in where all masculinity is eradicated, and men are utterly subservient. And this was broken/ altered, defo, because of the introduction of patriarchal elements

Patriarchy would have been the messed-up Barbieland that Barbie found after she returned from the real world. IF the movie had ended right there, and showed that Ken's hyper-patriarchial Barbieland was better, then yea you would be correct.

Except I didn’t say patriarchy ruled supreme/ had won. . I said it was a victory.. and it was.. it went from 0 masculinity, to 10 full on Tate masculinity . To something approaching near equality.. that’s a huge net-victory for “kenergy” at the expense of the feminist utopia with 0 masculinity

To Barbie, it's possible that nothing else was more important than improving the real "problematic" world.

Oh I’ll grant you it’s plausible/ not impossible.. but I truly don’t see how visiting a gynaecologist at the movies conclusion makes that a likely possibility heh.. but you’re free to interpret the way you see fit ofcourse

It's actually a feminist triumph, not necessarily a righteous masculine triumph. It would have only been a masculine triumph if it ended when the Kens took over Barbieland.

Any form of masculinity, except for the completely subservient kind.. is taboo when it comes to feminist ideological endgame…to have a movie end with not only utopia destroyed, in the sense that’s it’s not it’s perfect ideological form anymore, but the main protagonist leaving it for its more masculine counterpart.. well, you do the math

Edit: what makes it ultimately a triumph for the “based” counter ideologie is the defeat of the ultimate ideal in the film @dmgtz96

“God is dead, he remains dead, and Ken killed him”

You're officially not a weirdo.

Hey! That was uncalled for! I worked so hard for that status

 

[dmgtz96]

contradictio in terminus my friend .. it’s a utopia. Now To you personally it might be/ feel wrong
But ideologically speaking it’s The ultimate platonic form, in where all masculinity is eradicated, and men are utterly subservient. And this was broken/ altered, defo, because of the introduction of patriarchal elements

I would still disagree. The movie didn't show that Barbieland was "utopia"- it showed that the way the Barbies were treating their Kens was not right. However, the solution was not patriarchy, since it's just the same problem but with the genders flipped. The solution was shown at the end of the movie, where the Barbies realized they should treat the Kens with respect, and that the Ken's needed representation in the government.

Except I didn’t say patriarchy ruled supreme/ had won. . I said it was a victory.. and it was.. it went from 0 masculinity, to 10 full on Tate masculinity . To something approaching near equality.. that’s a huge net-victory for “kenergy” at the expense of the feminist utopia with 0 masculinity

That's called feminism.

Any form of masculinity, except for the completely subservient kind.. is taboo when it comes to feminist ideological endgame…to have a movie end with not only utopia destroyed, in the sense that’s it’s not it’s perfect ideological form anymore, but the main protagonist leaving it for its more masculine counterpart.. well, you do the math

Would you say Allen/Allan is subservient? The guy beat the shit out of those construction workers and helped the Barbies take over Barbieland

Edit: what makes it ultimately a triumph for the “based” counter ideologie is the defeat of the ultimate ideal in the film @dmgtz96

“God is dead, he remains dead, and Ken killed him”


Hey! That was uncalled for! I worked so hard for that status

Haha. Tbh I didn't know I would discuss Barbie of all things when I went to watch it. I was mainly curious about the negative right wing perception (Ben Shapiro, etc.), and I was happy to see that so many people wanted to watch it.


Edit: one of the more interesting to happen with this movie is that, apparently, relationships are being broken up *because* of the movie. Usually happens when the couple goes see it, and the guy understands the wrong message/feels offended/starts talking bad about it, or when she is very excited to go see it and he refuses to go because he's not interested. Both are giant red flags, and it's probably for the better that these relationships break.

 

[Jetflag]

I would still disagree. The movie didn't show that Barbieland was "utopia"- it showed that the way the Barbies were treating their Kens was not right. However, the solution was not patriarchy, since it's just the same problem but with the genders flipped. The solution was shown at the end of the movie, where the Barbies realized they should treat the Kens with respect, and that the Ken's needed representation in the government.

Barbieworld (at least int the beginning) is depicted as the apotheosis of progressive, liberal feminism. Everything was perfect in terms of hierachy All was run by women, 100% feminism, 0% masculism. Now the end solution wasn't patriarchy.... I agree... but it was because of patriarchy, or better yet its introduction... that Masculinity (Kens) had been given a voice and respect.

That's called feminism.

nope, its not. not in the context of what this movie depicted and its leading ideology at least.. (your personal view can ofcourse differ)

Any masculinity, and you even go on to explain yourself to @Archon in so many words.. is an anathema to progressive, liberal feminism which is why all is under fire by it no exception. Even if its as normal and innocent as just excersising/ staying fit, to give an example.

The White Supremacist Origins of Exercise in the U.S.

And six other surprising facts about the history of fitness in America.

time.com

Dear Men: Stop Working Out

Physical fitness creates a cycle of toxic masculinity that must be eradicated.

onlyfeminists.com

Hot Shots: Sports Help Perpetuate a Culture of Toxic Masculinity - Pepperdine Graphic

Toxic masculinity is the cultural idea that, to be a man, one must be strong, dominant and aggressive. Co-Copy Chief Yamillah Hurtado shares her thoughts on how she believes sports help perpetuate a cycle of toxic masculinity.

pepperdine-graphic.com

Yup, you read that right @dmgtz96, time to stop going to the gym my man.., you don't want to be a Nazi and a Rapist do you?

The end goal, e.a. vision of Utopia of, especially this current feminist generation and coïncidently the directors ideology aswell (see also : what I wrote on progressive liberal feminism and its platonic form in the context of this film, but which does pull from the real world)

Is weak, utterly subservient, fully harmless, dependent men. e.a. the state the Ken's where in the beginning of the film.

Would you say Allen/Allan is subservient? The guy beat the shit out of those construction workers and helped the Barbies take over Barbieland

yes, In fact he's probably the most subservient of them all.. He remains "loyal" to the dominant paradigm even after the introduction of the rebel ideology. Now he might have inate physical strength...but he's not the wielder of that.. The barbies are....they are his master(s) and will be forever.. He's, in terms of caracter..a bit like the Hound from GOT, (only better looking)

and come on...those wheren't construction workers m8, those where construction ken's basically a bunch of larpers

Edit: one of the more interesting to happen with this movie is that, apparently, relationships are being broken up *because* of the movie. Usually happens when the couple goes see it, and the guy understands the wrong message/feels offended/starts talking bad about it, or when she is very excited to go see it and he refuses to go because he's not interested. Both are giant red flags, and it's probably for the better that these relationships break.

Really? Well interresting indeed if true.. I am a bit skeptical about that though, like, whats your source on that? Because if they pulled that data from social media well.. I wouldn't call that a very trustworthy metric given the amount of bots and pretenders on there hehe.

I agree though that (if indeed true) if you as a couple can't handle a single movie in terms of Ideological mis-alignment is better that you break heh.

My wife and I actually used to make a sport of it...She'd sat me in front of a movie she knew I hated and the next week i'd return the favor got some good discussions (and make-up sessions) from that he... I do miss that with the kids-hassle and so..

 

[dmgtz96]

Barbieworld (at least int the beginning) is depicted as the apotheosis of progressive, liberal feminism. Everything was perfect in terms of hierachy All was run by women, 100% feminism, 0% masculism. Now the end solution wasn't patriarchy.... I agree... but it was because of patriarchy, or better yet its introduction... that Masculinity (Kens) had been given a voice and respect.

This is flat out untrue. A real feminist advocates for equality for both sexes and all genders.

nope, its not. not in the context of what this movie depicted and its leading ideology at least.. (your personal view can ofcourse differ)

Any masculinity, and you even go on to explain yourself to @Archon in so many words.. is an anathema to progressive, liberal feminism which is why all is under fire by it no exception. Even if its as normal and innocent as just excersising/ staying fit, to give an example.

The White Supremacist Origins of Exercise in the U.S.

And six other surprising facts about the history of fitness in America.

time.com

Dear Men: Stop Working Out

Physical fitness creates a cycle of toxic masculinity that must be eradicated.

onlyfeminists.com

Hot Shots: Sports Help Perpetuate a Culture of Toxic Masculinity - Pepperdine Graphic

Toxic masculinity is the cultural idea that, to be a man, one must be strong, dominant and aggressive. Co-Copy Chief Yamillah Hurtado shares her thoughts on how she believes sports help perpetuate a cycle of toxic masculinity.

pepperdine-graphic.com

Yup, you read that right @dmgtz96, time to stop going to the gym my man.., you don't want to be a Nazi and a Rapist do you?

I remember when those articles came out, and they were clowned on by the entire fitness community lol.
The truth is, we don't know anything about that "OnlyFeminist" author or their credentials to talk about feminism. Those are the fringe, radical feminists that no one likes or associates with. They're extremists - and just like @Archon mentioned, would you judge an entire movement/principle based on fringe cases?

In any case, the argument can be made that a lot of the manosphere influencers use exercise and self-help as a way to draw men toward misogyny. This actually happens, but again: those are fringe cases. Exercise by itself does not make you a misogynist

The end goal, e.a. vision of Utopia of, especially this current feminist generation and coïncidently the directors ideology aswell (see also : what I wrote on progressive liberal feminism and its platonic form in the context of this film, but which does pull from the real world)

Is weak, utterly subservient, fully harmless, dependent men. e.a. the state the Ken's where in the beginning of the film.

This is also untrue and is a myth mainly perpetuated by anti feminists, manosphere activists, etc. Feminism tries to free men from toxic masculinity, which is the societal standards that make men be stoic and unable to show their emotions.

yes, In fact he's probably the most subservient of them all.. He remains "loyal" to the dominant paradigm even after the introduction of the rebel ideology. Now he might have inate physical strength...but he's not the wielder of that.. The barbies are....they are his master(s) and will be forever.. He's, in terms of caracter..a bit like the Hound from GOT, (only better looking)

I'm not familiar with The Hound. I think he was trying to escape because he realized he *did not* fit with the bro vibe that patriarchal Ken's had going on. Allen/Allan is a good example of what it's like to be a non-traditional guy with feminine interests in a hypermasculine world.

and come on...those wheren't construction workers m8, those where construction ken's basically a bunch of larpers

Fair enough hahaha

Really? Well interresting indeed if true.. I am a bit skeptical about that though, like, whats your source on that? Because if they pulled that data from social media well.. I wouldn't call that a very trustworthy metric given the amount of bots and pretenders on there hehe.

I agree though that (if indeed true) if you as a couple can't handle a single movie in terms of Ideological mis-alignment is better that you break heh.

There isn't data, but there have been a couple posts on reddit, articles, and tiktoks about it happening. It's the same situation as the Roe reversal - guys who hid their anti-feminist views from their significant other suddenly expose them, causing their girlfriends to rethink the relationship.
Anecdotally, some guys are *also* breaking up with their girlfriends because they see that they've been living as Kens, only happy when they're with their girlfriend but that have no aspirations of their own.

My wife and I actually used to make a sport of it...She'd sat me in front of a movie she knew I hated and the next week i'd return the favor got some good discussions (and make-up sessions) from that he... I do miss that with the kids-hassle and so..

This is an example of a very good relationship (&marriage). You both tolerate one another's interests, haha. The problem is when the guy is like, nope under no circumstances will I watch this movie (even though it means a lot to his girlfriend).

Edit: fixed typos/autocorrects

 

[Jetflag]

This is flat out untrue. A real feminist This is also untrue and is a myth mainly perpetuated by anti feminists, manosphere activists, etc. Feminism tries to free men from toxic masculinity, ...

I'm not going to dissect these things point by point again in this topic m8, its not for that.. but we can take this up somewhere else again if you'd like too.

I'll simply point on that, you're unneccesairly defending feminism like a loyal hound in these sections.. But I'm not attacking feminism m8.. I'm pointing how its depicted in the movie on a pure ideological front and specifically its ultimate platonic form (so not a how it may or may not function or translate to the real world) and given its overal plot and conclusion its as such ultimatly not a feminist film.

This is an example of a very good relationship (&marriage). You both tolerate one another's interests, haha. The problem is when the guy is like, nope under no circumstances will I watch this movie (even though it means a lot to his girlfriend).

cheers

Edit: qq, just curious.. Did you watch the film with friends or did you take the opportunity to go on a date yourself?

 

[Archon]

toxic masculinity, which is the societal standards that make men be stoic and unable to show their emotions

I can't believe some think stoicism is somehow bad...

 

[Jetflag]

I can't believe some think stoicism is somehow bad...

its the strenght that it provides that some think is bad..

 

[dmgtz96]

I'm not going to dissect these things point by point again in this topic m8, its not for that.. but we can take this up somewhere else again if you'd like too.

I'll simply point on that, you're unneccesairly defending feminism like a loyal hound in these sections.. But I'm not attacking feminism m8.. I'm pointing how its depicted in the movie on a pure ideological front and specifically its ultimate platonic form (so not a how it may or may not function or translate to the real world) and given its overal plot and conclusion its as such ultimatly not a feminist film.

Good call.

cheers

Edit: qq, just curious.. Did you watch the film with friends or did you take the opportunity to go on a date yourself?

I just went by myself, it was opening weekend and I had nothing going on that day

 

[Jetflag]

@dmgtz96

I give you....Perfection..

 

[facade1984]

in other news I finally got round to watching Parasite by Bong-Joon Ho and it was excellent. deeply unsettling and tense in places

 

[dmgtz96]

in other news I finally got round to watching Parasite by Bong-Joon Ho and it was excellent. deeply unsettling and tense in places

Great movie. Probably one of the best from the past 5 years or so

 

[Progrez]

Great movie. Probably one of the best from the past 5 years or so

Apparently, he is being sued because it's a remake of a Bollywood movie.

They are apparently making a web series of it now which will be vastly be different from the film.

 

[Bobby Summa]

I don't think we should really abide by definitions made by extremes, would you agree?

Shouldn't masculinity be just a set of behaviours associated mostly with the male sex (some inherited, some taught)? And everyone's behaviour falls within a spectrum (masculine-feminine). It's only a problem when we use it to judge or box in others based off of those traits, make stereotypes or glorify/vilify the traits themselves.

To me, it's just something that exists...and changes through time. It's just a construct.

The way we use it tells more about ourselves than about others.



About the movie though - haven't watched it, can't possibly comment.

Really nice comment dude.