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Gagi

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You should get paid IMO. This #latestagecapitalism bullshit like an unpaid internship should be eradicated with a law.

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To be honest - and I would love to get paid - I really don't think I should. I am already costing them their time, and monetarily just in terms of software licences and, as I'm working from their office, lot of small stuff too like coffee, some food from time to time and so on. And for that, I provide...nothing of actual value. I give them my potential, if they see it in me in fact.

In any case, after 3 weeks unpaid, if they see something in me I have a month of paid internship (which is probably for learning some more), and after that 3-month work contract and so on.

It is what it is, if they force every company to pay for internships, the selection would be much much tougher and less people would be given a chance. That would give a chance for Twitter warriors to complain about something. It's definitely a pro/con discussion.
 
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jetflag

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To be honest - and I would love to get paid - I really don't think I should. I am already costing them their time, and monetarily just in terms of software licences and, as I'm working from their office, lot of small stuff too like coffee, some food from time to time and so on. And for that, I provide...nothing of actual value. I give them my potential, if they see it in me in fact.

In any case, after 3 weeks unpaid, if they see something in me I have a month of paid internship (which is probably for learning some more), and after that 3-month work contract and so on.

It is what it is, if they force every company to pay for internships, the selection would be much much tougher and less people would be given a chance. That would give a chance for Twitter warriors to complain about something. It's definitely a pro/con discussion.
^ this.

The whole notion of forcing companies by government fiat to pay a full salary too someone "learning the trade" in the best scenario and in the worse case to someone just sitting there figuring out "this career path is not for me" to me is one of those bloody typical and absurd millenial-marxist pipe dreams that just isn't going to work, nor should it.

The 3 weeks scale up system seems, out of all the one's available, actually quite fair to me, both ethically and practically.
 
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Gagi

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Yup. I wouldn't say the argument for the poorer being given less of a chance is invalid, but it's 2021, most people can work from home nowadays. And 3-4 weeks really isn't a lot.

It's very easy to just demand money, but we also have to take into account the companies' point of view.

That said, maybe the state can do better in those cases, but that's a different (and much longer) discussion.
 
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dmgtz96

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^ this.

The whole notion of forcing companies by government fiat to pay a full salary too someone "learning the trade" in the best scenario and in the worse case to someone just sitting there figuring out "this career path is not for me" to me is one of those bloody typical and absurd millenial-marxist pipe dreams that just isn't going to work, nor should it.

The 3 weeks scale up system seems, out of all the one's available, actually quite fair to me, both ethically and practically.
And I would agree, but in the US:
i) Interns are generally paid lower than FT employees. Chemical engineers can expect to make anywhere from $70k to $100k, but as an R&D intern I made about $20/hr (which is on the lower end for chemical engineers). That annualizes to about $42k or so. Not a bad deal.
ii) In every job, there's always going to be a couple of weeks or even a month of just training. Usually that involves getting the software licenses, reading through standard operating procedures, and you are supposed to be paid in full.

That being said, Serbia is not the US. Gagi's work arrangement is interesting in that he can "try things out" for 3 weeks. This arrangement can work if everything takes place remotely and the company is relatively local. Personally, I wouldn't move hundreds of miles for a 3 week "try out period." 1-2 year contract with a solid salary and ok benefits, sure, but not a 3 week tryout period just to see if they like me. Then again, Serbia is not the US. In the US, software engineering interns are almost always paid - and companies that don't here are usually very shady. Points i) and ii) made entering the job market fairly competitive, so there are lots of unemployed/underemployed engineering graduates.
You only really saw entire classes getting jobs during the fracking boom and nowadays during the solid COVID job market.

Yup. I wouldn't say the argument for the poorer being given less of a chance is invalid, but it's 2021, most people can work from home nowadays. And 3-4 weeks really isn't a lot.

It's very easy to just demand money, but we also have to take into account the companies' point of view.

That said, maybe the state can do better in those cases, but that's a different (and much longer) discussion.
Yeah, in your case just stick it out. I don't know what the working atmosphere is like in Serbia, but around the 6 months - 1 year mark you can start looking around and see if anyone will pay you better / has better working conditions. Once you have a couple years of professional exp as a dev you can pretty much write your own ticket and demand however much you'd like.
It's business, and you gotta look after yourself. If you think this is going to get you where you want, that's fine. If you feel unhappy or underpaid, nothing wrong with looking elsewhere once you have some experience.
 
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Progrez

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first step to turning things around is to improve yourself.

- make a life plan
- get therapy (if you don't already)
- get fit
- practice your social/romance skills.

etc.

Looking back to "what could have been" is completely useless. You don't own a time machine, and it will only drag you down,

Start fixing things -> now. or i guarantee you, when you're 40 you'll be wasting time complaining on the internet about how you've wasted your 30's on the internet 🤷‍♂️

come on. pick yourself up by the bootstraps. You can do this, no need to talk yourself down over what could have beens 💪🙏
That's true, but I am just wondering what is the point of building all of this wealth and money. Sure, it's there to sustain you and keep you alive but I just find that building so much wealth and money will lead to making life more miserable and the more older I am getting the more I am realising that material possession will not make me happy at all.

Genuinely helping others will make me happy.
 

jetflag

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That's true, but I am just wondering what is the point of building all of this wealth and money. Sure, it's there to sustain you and keep you alive but I just find that building so much wealth and money will lead to making life more miserable and the more older I am getting the more I am realising that material possession will not make me happy at all.

Genuinely helping others will make me happy.
Where, in those 4 points, did you see me mention anything about the aquisition of (material) wealth?
 
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Hensmon

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Internships are almost all paid in the UK and it works well. Majority seeem very happy it’s the norm. Lol at the Marxist pipe dream description @jetflag It’s quite literally a successful reality in the UK. Its uncommon in the Netherlands to get paid internships?

I think in some situations doing free is fine though, for the very small periods of work like Gagi is doing. Transport and lunch probably a good practice though.
 

dmgtz96

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Internships are almost all paid in the UK and it works well. Majority seeem very happy it’s the norm. Lol at the Marxist pipe dream description @jetflag It’s quite literally a successful reality in the UK. Its uncommon in the Netherlands to get paid internships?

I think in some situations doing free is fine though, for the very small periods of work like Gagi is doing. Transport and lunch probably a good practice though.
In the US, the perception is that internships in Congress or media companies (radio/TV/film/magazines/etc.) are all unpaid. So only those born with a silver spoon OR that bust their asses off to save up for months of unpaid work can enter those fields.
Those of US in STEM immediately see unpaid summer internships as a red flag.
But I'm talking about, full-length 10-12 weeks worth of work. I had never heard of 3 weeks of unpaid work followed by a short-term contract.
 

Hensmon

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Yeah interns absolutely offer value to the companies they come into. I definitely did for mine and observed good interns each time they came in when I was a perm. Sometimes it doesn't work out, but thats life and most times thats not the case. It can happen with perms too.

What Gagi described for his 3 weeks is mainly onboarding, it might not feel like he's doing anything but this process happens for everyone, even if you are paid. Its part of the process and sets you up to work well. After 10+ years in my industry I just moved to a new job and I had 2 months of onboarding before I started doing work that gave them value.
 

Gagi

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To clarify further, I am learning something new at my internship, so I am not really contributing anything that gets the company paid...right now.

Three of us started on the same day. Week 2 and one has already given up.
 
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dmgtz96

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To clarify further, I am learning something new at my internship, so I am not really contributing anything that gets the company paid...right now.

Three of us started on the same day. Week 2 and one has already given up.
Yeah, at the end of the day what @Hensmon, @BladeRunner_ , and I are saying only applies to our respective countries (or the countries where we're familiar with their working environments). We don't know how things are like in Serbia.
You might be new, but I have the feeling you're a talented engineer. Hopefully this opportunity works out well for you. If you're still sticking around even after one of the new hires already left, I think that speaks well of your grit/resilience.
 
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jetflag

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Internships are almost all paid in the UK and it works well. Majority seeem very happy it’s the norm. Lol at the Marxist pipe dream description @jetflag It’s quite literally a successful reality in the UK. Its uncommon in the Netherlands to get paid internships?
no its not, What i said was forcing companies via government fiat to pay interns is a bad idea and ultimatly futile.

If you as a company believe investing in future employees in that fashion is profitable, as indeed is the case in both our respective countries, -> fine.

my problem is the erratication by law part. not the free choice and alleged overall success story when one or all choose to do that.
 
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dmgtz96

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I never said that, What i said was forcing companies via government fiat to pay interns is a bad idea and ultimatly futile.

If you as a company believe investing in future employees in that fashion is profitable, as indeed is the case in both our respective countries, -> fine.

my problem is the erratication by law part. not the free choice and alleged overall success story when one or all choose to do that.
Pros of the government forcing companies to pay interns:
  • Companies (and even the government itself) will get more diverse candidates, not just those who can afford to work unpaid or that are willing to work part-time elsewhere while going through the internship
  • Students being paid for their work
Cons of forcing companies to pay interns:
  • Industries that depend on interns being unpaid will slash their internship programs, ex. fashion or media, or at the very least reduce the # of interns they can take
  • The internships that remain will become super competitive
  • Companies can no longer offer internships "for credit," which are primarily meant to be learning experiences
 
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jetflag

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Pros of the government forcing companies to pay interns:
  • Companies (and even the government itself) will get more diverse candidates, not just those who can afford to work unpaid or that are willing to work part-time elsewhere while going through the internship
  • Students being paid for their work
Cons of forcing companies to pay interns:
  • Industries that depend on interns being unpaid will slash their internship programs, ex. fashion or media, or at the very least reduce the # of interns they can take
  • The internships that remain will become super competitive
  • Companies can no longer offer internships "for credit," which are primarily meant to be learning experiences
Well yes and no here and there.

- I don't see how in this context diversity is a relevant pro or con metric, "more diversity" is a purely ideological argument, not a practical, measurably beneficial (or counter productive for that matter) one. Its way too broad a brush to slap on the entire (business) industry as defacto benificial.
- Nice for the students, sure, not so much for the companies who will after the first couple of batch go bankrupt for either wasting money on "potentials" or government fees for not conforming.
- If they have that choice yes. Whats to stop the government from making internship programs mandatory when your company say: reaches x amount of employees or revenue?
- or when mandatory drop in quality across the board.
- agreed.
 

dmgtz96

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Well yes and no here and there.

- I don't see how in this context diversity is a relevant pro or con metric, "more diversity" is a purely ideological argument, not a practical, measurably beneficial (or counter productive for that matter) one. Its way too broad a brush to slap on the entire (business) industry as defacto benificial.
You will have people from other socioeconomic backgrounds applying for and getting these internship positions, not just the ones that always have.

Another con: precedent that the government can meddle with company internship programs, which could lead to the scenario you mentioned - requiring companies to offer internships once they reach a certain size/revenue amount

edit: but of course, more diversity isn't necessarily good. We just saw that today with the prime minister of Sweden that resigned hours after starting...
 
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jetflag

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You will have people from other socioeconomic backgrounds applying for and getting these internship positions, not just the ones that always have.

Another con: precedent that the government can meddle with company internship programs, which could lead to the scenario you mentioned - requiring companies to offer internships once they reach a certain size/revenue amount

edit: but of course, more diversity isn't necessarily good. We just saw that today with the prime minister of Sweden that resigned hours after starting...
then I would rephrase diversity to something along the lines of broadening the pool of potential talent.

also that Swedish story completelly passed me, thanks for the headsup.
 
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dmgtz96

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then I would rephrase diversity to something along the lines of broadening the pool of potential talent.

also that Swedish story completelly passed me, thanks for the headsup.

That's pretty much the goal of true diversity!

And yeah, that Swedish PM story is crazy. Yesterday morning everyone was making a huge deal that Sweden elected its first female prime minister. Hours later, she resigns.
I think she's going to be elected again, but that was just WTF.
 
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Gagi

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Finally got some time and will to listen to some music. Been two weeks since I actively listened to music, goddamn! Went through the producers' section, and then decided to go through my old stuff. I wasn't so bad, even now I'm kinda impressed at some of my works. Wish I had them finished.
 
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dmgtz96

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@jetflag this is right up your alley.
The part where Palo Alto residents voted to get rid of the proposed high-density residential complex for the elderly almost made my blood boil:

 
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