Conservative or liberal (politics)

[Jetflag]

I've read that the US embassy in Moscow warned Russian officials about the attack ~2 weeks ago. They had some intelligence about there being a potential for an attack on large venues in Moscow, but it was dismissed.

No "flammable" statements yet. IS took responsibility for the attack. 11 people were arrested.

About your possibilities, who would benefit from #1 (besides the war industry)? And for #2, why would they need a justification, and to whom would they need to justify the escalation?

1 the war industry . + there are myriad of forces within nato who’re actively pushing and seeking excuses to go to war with Russia, aside from arms & aid support (macron and Biden just to name two recent ones). Also: that whole terrorist warning note I find just hilarious.

“Hi Kremlin! Your friendly fellow anti-terror CIA here, just lettin you know that there might be an imminent attack in Moscow by an utterly irrelevant Islamic group who’s been dead for 10 years. Now if you’ll excuse us we have a billion in arms to deliver to our allies and your enemies in Kiev”

such generous helpful people, totally nothing shady going on with that.

wouldn’t be the first time the cia used third party groups for destabilisation

2 same reason Hitler needed/ used the Reighstag or Bush needed/used 911. The last Russian “democratic election” saw people actively sabotaging voting ballots. There’s a lot of unhappiness and divide in Russia atm. Nothing like a good tragedy to bring peoples eyes united on target.

Never waste a good crisis, and if there isn’t one, make one.

3 question:
Have you ever seen ISIS jihadis run away after an attack?

And why would beeping IS need payed mercenaries from tzajikistan in the first place?They have an international spread core of suicide ideologues who’re literally dying to get a place in heaven. And why the hell did they have a planned escape route directly to Ukraine? The area most heavily watched, defended and policed by the militairy?

Honestly this doesn’t fit IS’s modus operandi at all. The only reason I can think of them being behind this is that it’s in their best interest to ignite a war between Russia and the west.

 

[Hensmon]

@Jetflag and @Bobby Summa, I saw your posts in the other thread about UK politics and will move response here as more relevant, less spam.

When it comes to Labour vs Tories @Jetflag you are making arguments from an idealogical and policy POV, but that's unfortunately not where the debate is at. The UK is in ways an oligarchy, and the criminal components of that operate most aggressively through Tory senior leadership. Underlying ideology is irrelevant if the the people at the helm of the ship are criminals, actively syphoning off assets into the hands of said oligarchy whilst furthering the consolidation of power they hold. Labour is not separate from this system too, but it's not yet nearly as comparable or as consuming. (Partly a reason why there is so much contention within the party itself, Blairites vs Corbynites as one example).

There's another aspect to this...It again doesn't matter if your political ideology is sound if the characters of leadership who execute policy and represent the people are so badly faulted. In Trumps case it's his ego and why so many people respond so badly to him. For the Tories it's levels of contempt, deceit and self-serving behavior that is absoloutely not matched by the other UK parties. The lying has been at degrees and frequency that shocked the whole country. Boris Johnson sort of the unabashed representation of that. Not to mention competency... So inept this party has been that they've changed leadership more than Chelsea football club.

If we did have the luxury to debate on ideological grounds... well we've had 14 years of conservative vision and policy and we've seen the country almost visibly degrade. It really has been dire. Our institutions and infrastructure crumble, socially and economically we reversed. We perform at the lowest levels compared to our neighbours. Cameron's austerity plan was a championed conservative idealogical play, and just like trickle-down economics, was a complete delusion and disaster, that did nothing to stop our growing debt. Unlike the US, we've had uninterrupted decades of right-wing politics to demonstrate it's value, but instead it eroded us from the outside and rotted us from within. Where's the argument and evidence that it will eventually start working?

 

[Jetflag]

..except that what you had was defacto not right-wing (or "conserving") politics for 14 years m8.. @Hensmon.

What exactly was right-wing or conservative about it? and i'm not talking about the little tokenisms, i'm talking about the broad strokes.

You've had:

- continued open borders/ mass migration
- a huge progressive lgbtqi agenda push (very conservative!)
- post brexit in-line tow with everything brexit was supposed to circumvent in terms of EU regulations, Laws and agenda,
- more top-down government regulation of the free market then even NL has..
- "hate speech laws" and other infrignements on free speech and assembly rights.

etc, all under corrupt tory rule..

I'm not making an argument from the standpoint of Ideology m8...where exactly and from what ideological standpoint am I making that?

I agree with you.. the UK ís a defacto an oligarchy divided between the Tory's and Labour.
which is why they are doing the EXACT same thing whilst pretenting toward the UK people at around election-time that its somehow something else.

they are the same, in virtually every aspect.

You make a distinction between Labour and Tory in the sense that the tories are more corrupt. Yes, I agree.... And for the record, I wholeheartily grant them 0 seats ...The tories are much like the Dutch CDA. They're the old Regents..they're interrested in power, full stop. The more power, the more attracted they are..so when Brexit finally happened, instead of capitalizing on it, What they did instead in a nuttshell is suck up to the globalist powers that be, and the way they want things.. so they could keep getting invited to their nice little dinner parties in Davos et all. Desperate about being “liked”.

Truss was the only one who dared to go against that for two seconds by blasphemously daring to suggest you cut taxes to the common man, so that small business would flourish and the economy would (independenly) grow...and the bank of england basically shut her down, chat that.

so yes, I agree. the Tories are worse morally....what I argue is that labour will be worse practically,,, that more blairism under Starmer (what started it) or Corbyn's "real socialism" (what will worsen it) isn't somehow going to get you out of this and back on the wellfare track..

because non of those adress the rootcause as to why:

- your health and education institutions are overstreched,
- why housing and even rent is unaffordable,
- why your infrastructure is crumbling
- and you now have Sharia zones where you're not allowed to even drink a pint..


you simply have too many people coming in. and the more people, the more strain on said systems whore overstretched already..And neither Starmers or Sunaks half baked measures are going to change that. Especially now that the Rwanda deal is scrapped, which would allow you to start a proper remigrate policy.

you are. to use a dutch expression: "mopping with the tap running"

What you need, but i suspect i'll be called a "racist"for that even though i'm not is a proper democratic populist movement, so not an elitist one, that isn't afraid to tell the EU/UN overlords: "no. we're shutting the borders, and we'll deport ANY illigal back to wherever they want them." And then maybe, maybe in 10 years after that, you'll have build enough houses to provide a roof for everyone, including the immigrants that have currently settled.

 

[Hensmon]

The overal point i'm making is that Labour and Tories being compared as almost equals is simply not true. You seem to agree with me that morally the Tories are worse, and also that they are more corrupt. Those are two huge things. They are more meaningful and consequential than any ideological comparison, meaning what policy each party prioritizes and enacts. Corbyn let's say nationalizing energy and failing is far less concerning than an oligarchy that continues to ossify its hold on power and information (media). What i'm saying is a corrupt and criminal oligarchy at the helm of the country is the worst outcome possible of all 'democratic' scenarios and that even a 10% step in direction away from that is a massive relief and victory, which we get with Labour. We are already in a measurable better place just from the result alone.

I'll respond to some of you other points another time, as most of it is complete nonsense. The sharia zones in London is just laughable. I remember seeing this on Fox news a few years back as well. I lived in London for like 15 years.

 

[Jetflag]

You are right in that you’re in a better place in the sense that the Tories are dying, and hopefully dead by 2029. We indeed agree on this.

You’re wrong in that things will be better in the sense that the policies Labour will enact will make things better for you as a country..they will make things (far) worse, as they are either a continuation or an enhancement of what got you (and a lot of mainland europe as well by the way) in this mess in the first place. (And current tory policy for that matter)

We also disagree on the matter of it not being a big deal what ideology is reighning, as long as the party is not corrupt. The direction your country is going is as important as the honesty/genuine level of the people in power enacting it.

we’ll see how things unfold in 4 years, my guess: (and hope) catastrophic defeat for both Labour and Tory, if it’s not been reformed or replaced by then, as Starmer, like Johnson/sunak before him will be unwilling and unable to tackle the main issues playing.

but I hope I’m wrong as I do really quite like England, And starmer does come across as a nice guy (but then again, politicians are very good at that)

I'll respond to some of you other points another time, as most of it is complete nonsense. The sharia zones in London is just laughable. I remember seeing this on Fox news a few years back as well. I lived in London for like 15 years.

Looking forward to that responds because in all honesty..the way you currently seem to be downplaying the overall effects of mass-immigration, and in particular (extremist) Islamic ideology has had on GB, particularly on say: 1400 raped children, and the suffering their families had to go through, under a “well it wasn’t so bad in my personal experience and time in London, and look? I can walk there so therefor it’s technically not a no-go zone ” I find, with respect, frankly to be a bit disgusting. Sorry to say m8. People have and are currently suffering under this. You seem to be turning a blind eye to what's happening in your country just because it doesn't affect you personally, (and you're free to utterly chastice me for being totally wrong on that, which i very well might be)

Bellingcat is, aside from all that, known for its left liberal bias and aptly dubbed psy-ops, particularly on cultural matters, though on other foreighn investigatory journalism they seem to be quite apt.

Now maybe you thought I was specifically referring to that Fox News opp-ed (that I honestly didn’t know existed until now) but I wasn’t, and that wasn’t the overall point I made with that sum-up and off the cuff example.

the point was that mass immigration is a/ the root problem when talking about nhs strain, housing, traffic etc. As well as cultural frictions.

 

[Hensmon]

I'm not sure why you are bringing up immigration, I didn't mention it once, either positive or negative. I have mixed feelings on the topic and opinions to share another time. I think you are misunderstanding my point still. I'm pushing back on the claim our two parties are the same. I see clear distinctions, mostly in relation to morality and corruption. We both seem to agree. I specifically mentioned policy was not part of the comparison I was making. I have thoughts on that too, but to me morality and corruption supersede it (and why I am pleased Labour have taken power).

 

[Jetflag]

I didn't mention it once,

but you did mention the problems that plagued your country hence me giving my take on it.

all and all yes, we agree on the moral aspect, and disagree on the practical aspect.. that said i'm glad labour to take the reighs for now, as long as it allows the tories to die before the next election.and you’ll either have starmer having improved things (whichhe won’t) or a proper opposition party taking the lead out of the Tories ashes, getting theuk on track again.

 

[Jetflag]

Or maybe I’m just being a bored genXdad who’s happy to finally have a bit of a stupid semi intellectual discussion with someone here again now that @dmgtz96 isnt around that often @Hensmon

so thanks for that

 

[dmgtz96]

After the media overrepresentation of Biden's "bad performance" while ignoring Trump's rape allegations and his connection to project 2025, I don't think I can trust any of the US media at all. I already didn't trust them, but their refusal to cover anything Trump is just taking the piss.
And yes, that includes NYT and CNN. They're joke publications.

 

[Jetflag]

After the media overrepresentation of Biden's "bad performance" while ignoring Trump's rape allegations and his connection to project 2025, I don't think I can trust any of the US media at all. I already didn't trust them, but their refusal to cover anything Trump is just taking the piss.
And yes, that includes NYT and CNN. They're joke publications.

You've not been reading the news for the last couple of years m8? ....It was nothing bút Trumps rape allegations

I wouldn't worry about it too much in any case. the way things are right now Biden is probably going to win if he stays in the race, whether thats from a speakers box or a hospital bed.

see: lichtman's 13 keys to the white house.

 

[Progrez]

The same fist pump as today as he got shot today. What a fucked up world.

 

[LostLegend]

 

[dmgtz96]

Yep. I expect this election season to be very violent.

 

[Jetflag]

I’m sure they’ll delete the shooters entire online existence, have all his posts removed and then have the “experts” tell us what his motives where.


This might actually give Trump another key. Namely the last one on the list, though unlikely.

whatever you think of the man, taking a bullet for your country and then standing up, fist in the air while the goons try and drag you down, continuing the fight is hella gangster.

 

[Bobby Summa]

I’m sure they’ll delete the shooters entire online existence, have all his posts removed and then have the “experts” tell us what his motives where.


This might actually give Trump another key. Namely the last one on the list, though unlikely.

whatever you think of the man, taking a bullet for your country and then standing up, fist in the air while the goons try and drag you down, continuing the fight is hella gangster.

Thanks man, you stopped my sadness about this and made me chuckle.

Hella Gangsta. So funny

 

[LostLegend]

I’m sure they’ll delete the shooters entire online existence, have all his posts removed and then have the “experts” tell us what his motives where.


This might actually give Trump another key. Namely the last one on the list, though unlikely.

whatever you think of the man, taking a bullet for your country and then standing up, fist in the air while the goons try and drag you down, continuing the fight is hella gangster.

Registered Republican voter apparently.
So god knows at this point …

 

[dmgtz96]

I’m sure they’ll delete the shooters entire online existence, have all his posts removed and then have the “experts” tell us what his motives where.


This might actually give Trump another key. Namely the last one on the list, though unlikely.

whatever you think of the man, taking a bullet for your country and then standing up, fist in the air while the goons try and drag you down, continuing the fight is hella gangster.

Yeah, the picture of him with his fist raised up in the air, and his ear bleeding, is pretty badass. He might have been handed the election, since this is the kind of event that motivates apathetic and undecided voters.

 

[facade1984]

Oh god he's gonna get elected again because of this isn't he

 

[dmgtz96]

Registered Republican voter apparently.
So god knows at this point …

Homie was ugly AF and also fan of a guns online influencer (Demolition Ranch). He legit looks like a caricature of a redditor. One of the comments says that he's a pedophile hunter. I think that would give him motive to kill Trump. Idk, that just seems so unplausible, but nothing about Trump feels like reality.

 

[dmgtz96]

Literally though, the shooter being a white male Republican gun nut is the best outcome of this situation