Conservative or liberal (politics)

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

The Roe v Wade legislation was the ultimate paper tiger of symbol politics, overruled by any individual state legislation and as such only a hindrance towards an áctually effective piece of law that would make abortion a (constitutional) right. ... if you are pro a national abortion right, you should celebrate the deadweight roe v wade being out of the way imo

If gerrymandering were not a thing, or the filibuster, the average American might have the mental bandwidth to go down this road with you, confident that legislation would eventually solve the issue. However, to most, quite simply, a right that has existed for nearly 50 years evaporated overnight. Regardless of one's personal feeling on the issue, look to any (functional) developed country for guidance on how this issue should be handled - as a healthcare issue between a woman and her doctor.

 

[Jetflag]

country

you've described the problem with a single word there ^ The USA is not set up as a country, with 1 government, who can top down just "do" stuff. The USA is defacto set up as a series of countries (States) who're United only when it comes to basal things like:

- borders
- foreign militairy operations
- the constitution

etc.

There's a very strict, (and I think proper), seperation between federal and local government... and this is why initiatives like obama care are doomed to fail, same with abortion rights. Despite Roe V Wade being a constitutional right. it has, by the way the country is set up. Been kept out by 15 states, whilst the others fully, or tenitavely allow it.

you're basically not making a law or right for 1 country, you're making one for 50. And this is also where the solution lies Imo, same with healthcare... Like said: only 15 "countries" forbid abortion, most allow it under certain provisions, and in 9 you can basically just buy one at the local Wallmart so to speak Make the transition from one State to the next affordable and easy(er) as a US citizen, and you've defacto solved the problem.

guidance on how this issue should be handled - as a healthcare issue between a woman and her doctor.

I'm actually more and more of the opinion that abortion is a way more complex problem then that, ethically speaking that is. I'm still very tenatively pro choice but that is mainly for pragmatic reasons, not moral ones.

 

[Jetflag]

the issue and solution are imo quite neatly described in this video, taking healthcare as an overall topic @SaltAcidFatHeatAcid if you're interrested and got time for a watch.

 

[LostLegend]

you've described the problem with a single word there ^ The USA is not set up as a country, with 1 government, who can top down just "do" stuff. The USA is defacto set up as a series of countries (States) who're United only when it comes to basal things like:

It's like that old joke/saying: "The United States is a great idea that got way out of hand.

 

[Hensmon]

I'm not that excited about Harris, but she is far better than Biden, on the health basis alone, and as an individual much better than Trump (not a pathological liar, ego isn't out of control).

Since 2020 I have become a staunch independent (figuratively since I cannot yet vote in US elections). I see what I believe to be the most important issues as being unchanged under Democrats and Republicans, who are essentially the same in that regards. There are obvious differences in other topics, but I am mostly concerned about war and the chronic disease and mental health crisis. Democrats used to be good on this, but now I fear they have been consumed by the corporate and military powers to the same extent the Republican party has been for the last 50 years.

Kennedy by far the best candidate, currently poling at 22% (according to the latest). He definitely has a chance.

 

[LostLegend]

Watched Harris' first campaign speech at Milwaukee.
In terms of public speaking, it's night and day between her and Biden, some actual energy instead of a mumbling half-corpse.
Focused a fair bit of her talk on working/cost of living stuff aimed at the American middle-class which is a smart move.

She'll have a bit of a 'new nominee shine' about her polling figures for a few weeks no doubt, but that will likely fade. I still reckon it's going to be a very close election. Very tough to call.

 

[Jetflag]

Kennedy by far the best candidate, currently poling at 22% (according to the latest). He definitely has a chance

been a long time since we truly agreed on something brother

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

see what I believe to be the most important issues as being unchanged under Democrats and Republicans, who are essentially the same in that regards. There are obvious differences in other topics, but I am mostly concerned about war and the chronic disease and mental health crisis.

I just wish we were in a timeline where 'Conservative vs Liberal' was an actual topic where people could discuss policy, and maybe even vote across the aisle when good candidates with different views came around. Nah, it's just tribal now, moreso than it's been in recent times. It's one of the reasons I've avoided this topic here b/c most of this thread isn't addressing 'Liberal vs Conservative' at all directly. I'm also a registered independent @Hensmon , but I feel like my choices are between 'Pure Open Corrupt/Evil', 'The Antivax King' and 'Hopeful But Hamstrung by Filibuster and Corporate Overlords'. Neither will balance the budget. None represent traditional conservatism, with balance for good governance. Only one side regards climate change as serious, which will affect my children directly. I will say though as well, only one side has demonstrated a desire for actual governance and using government for good.

 

[Hensmon]

The Antivax King

Kennedy was described in this manner (as well as a "complete nut") to me at the start of the year, but after actually tuning in to multiple long form interviews with him I found that this characterization to be complete nonsense, and arguably a sentiment created from propaganda instead of reality.

He's the only candidate that talks about the debt, how its an existential crisis and what should be done to fix it. He's the only one out of the candidates who has been actively cleaning up the environment and litigating (successfully) against polluting corporations. An environmental lawyer with genuine concern and compassion for how the environment effects public health and wellbeing is exactly the kind of person we want taking on the climate challenges. He puts the torch on the merger of corporate and political power. He is bi-partisan and refreshingly un-tribal. Breath of fresh air.

He's demonstrated an impressive integrity and commitment to public health for decades, so I felt it appropriate to keep an open mind about his main positions on vaccines. His first position is that all vaccines should go through double blind placebo controlled safety tests before public consumption. I'm not sure why anyone would disagree with that. The popular covid vaccines did not adhere to standard safety protocols. His second claim is that vaccines can cause harm, and for some age groups, represent more of a threat than the disease itself. There is data to support that. Pfziers own clinical trial data puts the SAE events at 1 in 800 (although wont share age stratification). So at the very least, there is a debate to be had (as seen in UK parliament)

 

[Jetflag]

Conservative vs Liberal

Conservatives are actually liberals, or at the very least adher to the philosphy of liberalism (mostly) If you leave various religious doctrines out of it The main core difference between what nowadays classifies as a conservative and a liberal in the US sense of the word, is that a US Liberal is part of the Rousseau camp of Liberalism, where as the US Conservative mainly adhers to Lockian Liberalism.

 

[Bobby Summa]

Trump is such a good guy isn’t he.
And I quote
“The Biden/Harris Administration did not properly protect me, and I was forced to take a bullet for Democracy. IT WAS MY GREAT HONOR TO DO SO!”

im sorry but i somehow feel the family of the firefighter who died protecting his family, and the others who survived but are critically il . Well, I somehow think they might not feel the same. But it’s alright because Captain Trumpton is fine.
All is good then. I rest any case about whether Trump is a decent human. He is simply a piece of Turd. A very sticky and ill smelling one.

I will add. If this man gets into power again. He won’t be in it long. He will do something so fundamentally dangerous and stupid that other countries will ensure he steps down.

 

[Jetflag]

“The Biden/Harris Administration did not properly protect me, and I was forced to take a bullet for Democracy. IT WAS MY GREAT HONOR TO DO SO!”

where's the lie?

 

[Bobby Summa]

where's the lie?

It’s more he’s fundamentally missing the point. If he wasn’t such a bad person he wouldn’t have been in a position to be shot. Even if presidential candidate. This comment and his ‘God saved me from being shot dead’ it’s just disrespectful and indicative of the bad person and idiot he is. In a sense a family won’t want to think their relative dies in vein so that and because of political aligence to Trump they ‘might’ share a certain ‘enforced’ element of his statement. But I’m just tired along with so many people who realise hes a shit. And that he’s very dangerous and disrespectful and dumb.
I am judging his character yes (not some of his political views) But I really believe my assessment isn’t far from true. And I think his character is more relavant than his political views. Even if prsident given what might happen . Thats almost logical and rational, not superstition as he’s done it before. The violence that came at the political building after his dumb words. His supporters took it upon themselves to cause violence and chaos. If he becomes president. Worse will I occur I foresee. Common logical sense . Not sixth sense.

 

[Jetflag]

It’s more he’s fundamentally missing the point. If he wasn’t such a bad person he wouldn’t have been in a position to be shot. Even if presidential candidate. This comment and his ‘God saved me from being shot dead’ it’s just disrespectful and indicative of the bad person and idiot he is. In a sense a family won’t want to think their relative dies in vein so that and because of political aligence to Trump they ‘might’ share a certain ‘enforced’ element of his statement. But I’m just tired along with so many people who realise hes a shit. And that he’s very dangerous and disrespectful and dumb.
I am judging his character yes (not some of his political views) But I really believe my assessment isn’t far from true. And I think his character is more relavant than his political views. Even if prsident given what might happen . Thats almost logical and rational, not superstition as he’s done it before. The violence that came at the political building after his dumb words. His supporters took it upon themselves to cause violence and chaos. If he becomes president. Worse will I occur I foresee. Common logical sense . Not sixth sense.

ok, m8...with respect and kindness by the way, this is no attack just my 2 cents view on the speech and your take on it..

But I think you're suffering from TDS. Like seriously..

There was nothing in that statement or his speech that was in any way a disservice towards the other victims of the shooting, which he also in previous statements adressed by the way. Or in his believe/ comment that God saved him. like: what is precisely disrespectful and indicative about that and to whom? God himself for f-ing up?

I've adressed jan 6th in a previous post so needless to say i'm not going to repeat myself again. And as for the fear that the world war 3 will break out under Trump. The evidence is simply, utterly, to the contrairy. Things were demonstrably better under Trump in terms of world peace.. and that was with Covid. whatever you think of his awefull caracter..He very good at not starting wars... which given the USA's disposition on that front is actually quite something. And the Abraham Accords in the middle east by themselves should have landed him the bloody nobel peace prize for the astounishing acomplishment that was.

I think, and I'm saying this as someone who does not support Trump as a candidate in this election (if I even could) by the way..

...that you might have allowed one-sided media coverage of the man in the past 5 years to so completely poison your mind with so much negativity that everything, everything the man says or does is seen as evil by you... up to the point where your first statement is akin to saying: "if she didn't dress so slutty she wouldn't be in a position to be raped".

 

[dmgtz96]

I just wish we were in a timeline where 'Conservative vs Liberal' was an actual topic where people could discuss policy, and maybe even vote across the aisle when good candidates with different views came around. Nah, it's just tribal now, moreso than it's been in recent times. It's one of the reasons I've avoided this topic here b/c most of this thread isn't addressing 'Liberal vs Conservative' at all directly. I'm also a registered independent @Hensmon , but I feel like my choices are between 'Pure Open Corrupt/Evil', 'The Antivax King' and 'Hopeful But Hamstrung by Filibuster and Corporate Overlords'. Neither will balance the budget. None represent traditional conservatism, with balance for good governance. Only one side regards climate change as serious, which will affect my children directly. I will say though as well, only one side has demonstrated a desire for actual governance and using government for good.

You're always welcome to vote Democrat in this election

 

[dmgtz96]

If gerrymandering were not a thing, or the filibuster, the average American might have the mental bandwidth to go down this road with you, confident that legislation would eventually solve the issue. However, to most, quite simply, a right that has existed for nearly 50 years evaporated overnight. Regardless of one's personal feeling on the issue, look to any (functional) developed country for guidance on how this issue should be handled - as a healthcare issue between a woman and her doctor.

This is exactly how all of us perceive the removal of Roe v Wade. Young people today don't trust legislators, and the current Supreme Court is a joke full of corrupt judges.

Roe was removed because of Christian nationalism, and because Republicans generally hate women. In turn, people like me have zero respect toward Christianity.

 

[Bobby Summa]

ok, m8...with respect and kindness by the way, this is no attack just my 2 cents view on the speech and your take on it..

But I think you're suffering from TDS. Like seriously..

There was nothing in that statement or his speech that was in any way a disservice towards the other victims of the shooting, which he also in previous statements adressed by the way. Or in his believe/ comment that God saved him. like: what is precisely disrespectful and indicative about that and to whom? God himself for f-ing up?

I've adressed jan 6th in a previous post so needless to say i'm not going to repeat myself again. And as for the fear that the world war 3 will break out under Trump. The evidence is simply, utterly, to the contrairy. Things were demonstrably better under Trump in terms of world peace.. and that was with Covid. whatever you think of his awefull caracter..He very good at not starting wars... which given the USA's disposition on that front is actually quite something. And the Abraham Accords in the middle east by themselves should have landed him the bloody nobel peace prize for the astounishing acomplishment that was.

I think, and I'm saying this as someone who does not support Trump as a candidate in this election (if I even could) by the way..

...that you might have allowed one-sided media coverage of the man in the past 5 years to so completely poison your mind with so much negativity that everything, everything the man says or does is seen as evil by you... up to the point where your first statement is akin to saying: "if she didn't dress so slutty she wouldn't be in a position to be raped".

I get most of what you’re saying. I subscribe to a straight news journal which I haven’t read much as it becomes completely lost in my email account. I very much respect your take on this and as you continue to fight for truth thinking- something I do too but I’m not as accomplished. Too emotional maybe.

Im going to seek out the straight news (facts presented only) journal.
I’m going to research Trump and media bias. I can’t believe a good man like yourself says these things without a reason… so I have work to do on his research. Cheers. I still think he was very disrespectfull or perhaps more unthoughtfull in his quotes but will go further into it another time. Cheers.

 

[Bobby Summa]

This is exactly how all of us perceive the removal of Roe v Wade. Young people today don't trust legislators, and the current Supreme Court is a joke full of corrupt judges.

Roe was removed because of Christian nationalism, and because Republicans generally hate women. In turn, people like me have zero respect toward Christianity.

Just want to chip in and say, that to me doesn’t sound like propper Christianity dude. Not one Jesus would be proud of. With religion / Spirituality. Anyone can use a religion for their own purposes. It doesn’t mean it’s true to the ‘true’ religion. But it happens a lot everywhere. Controll. Not what the big G (God) and big J (Jesus) would have wanted, that’s for sure.

Anything non loving is usually a deviation from the religion or spiritual way. A miss interpretation. Very commonly made. By people with agenda’s.

 

[Jetflag]

Just want to chip in and say, that to me doesn’t sound like propper Christianity dude. Not one Jesus would be proud of. With religion / Spirituality. Anyone can use a religion for their own purposes. It doesn’t mean it’s true to the ‘true’ religion. But it happens a lot everywhere. Controll. Not what the big G (God) and big J (Jesus) would have wanted, that’s for sure.

Anything non loving is usually a deviation from the religion or spiritual way. A miss interpretation. Very commonly made. By people with agenda’s.

Sigh..No, roe was not removed for “Christian Nationalist” reasons or their “hatred of women”

It was removed for constitutional reasons and the way the US was initially set up in the way government branches are separated.

and anyone claiming otherwise is being wilfully dishonest and places feelings over facts.

 

[dmgtz96]

Sigh..No, roe was not removed for “Christian Nationalist” reasons or their “hatred of women”

It was removed for constitutional reasons and the way the US was initially set up in the way government branches are separated.

and anyone claiming otherwise is being wilfully dishonest and places feelings over facts.

You'd be right if that was the reason the Supreme Court removed Roe v Wade, but Republicans are known to hate women and want them to be punished for having sex, so there's no way the Roe removal wasn't due to Christianity or hatred of women.