Conservative or liberal (politics)

[Jetflag]

We can always agree to disagree not much we, and especially I can do about it lol.

edit: preliminaire peace deal has just been established.

 

[Perpetuous dreamer]

Also, NATO wasn’t expanding because it wanted to poke Russia in the eye. Countries asked to join because they were afraid of exactly what Russia ended up doing in Ukraine. The idea that “historically this was always the agreement” is just false. No treaty ever promised Russia a veto on NATO expansion.

It’s not false, it’s well documented.

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents

nsarchive.gwu.edu

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

It’s not false, it’s well documented.

Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner

Not to be nitpicking but there is a big difference between political assurances from 1990 and formal, legally binding commitments from 1990 that would still carry weight. Y'all just think Russia is justified and that should get to keep what they've forcefully taken? Wow.

 

[Jetflag]

Not to be nitpicking but there is a big difference between political assurances from 1990 and formal, legally binding commitments from 1990 that would still carry weight. Y'all just think Russia is justified and that should get to keep what they've forcefully taken? Wow.

No.

but it does take two to tango and to post hoc go “yes but the small letters didn’t specífically say it so nanananaana “…

..Is as much of an excuse as Putin going: “no, no.. it’s not a war people, we respect Ukraine sovereignty.. it’s just a “Special Militairy operation” “

Putin is a murderous dictator, but to think “Saintly NATO” is somehow a not greedy military expansion tool by the west, and demonstrably not “only for defence” is pure nonsense propaganda.

and thanks to those two Cunts… tens of thousands of young Ukrainians and Russians are now 6 feet deep because “muh clay”

 

[Bobby Summa]

Just watched a segment on the bbc of President Zelenski and President Trump talking during their meeting today. It’s really hard to fathom what I was watching. I felt it was like something from a school playground.

 

[Jetflag]

Just watched a segment on the bbc of Zelenski and Trump talking during their meeting today. It’s really hard to fathom what I was watching.

Say what you will about the man, he, so far, has been very transparent having the entire worlds press sat down filming The White House Podcast 1.0 Zelensky.

It’s actually quite refreshing and honest compared to the usual behind closed doors chitchat v smile in front of the camera shenanigans you usually see politicians do

 

[LostLegend]

What a time to be alive...

 

[Hensmon]

I know its very unorthodox to see this type of arguement on TV, but surely this must happen all the time behind closed doors, so It's not really that shocking or noteworthy. It's refreshing we actually get to see the reality of politics, not the facade we are usually given.

Did feel unnecessary to get so heated though. Maybe Vance deliberately wanted that to happen? If not, he really acted poorly and caused temperatures to rise unnecessarily by forcing Zelenskyy on the back foot.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

Did feel unnecessary to get so heated though. Maybe Vance deliberately wanted that to happen? If not, he really acted poorly and caused temperatures to rise unnecessarily by forcing Zelenskyy on the back foot.

This appeared very planned. Gives pretext to end support and aid, which has already started by the way. It’s embarrassing to be an American right now. Trump sounds like a four year old when he tries to speak to complex issues. Sigh.

 

[Jetflag]

Trump sounds like a four year old when he tries to speak to complex issues. Sigh.

spot on.

i actually think he did a good job in picking Vance for that reason. Vance, unlike Trump, is the type of guy who you can sit down with giving a full (coherent ) explanation on a complex issue.

Though non of that was present yesterday idd which makes me believe that idd it might be a setup for negotiation round 2 maybe..

Well c

and if it’s any consolation m8, I (maybe we) are deeply embarrassed of our “leaders” in the Eu for the most part as well so… shared burden, double the fun & all that

 

[dmgtz96]

What the hell, USA.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

What the hell, USA.

Well I mean, it’s all laid out in project 2025 (which he didn’t support, right? Right?).

We’re cooked mate. Even if some silver lining comes out of this, so so much damage has already been done. And that’s just the visible damage. It appears our gov’t is literally corrupted from within. To what extent, no one knows. Sad day to be an American, and there isn’t a thing I can do but watch the shitshow.

 

[Jetflag]

Help me out here? What happened

 

[facade1984]

A whole buncha dumb shit probably

 

[Jetflag]

well.. in that case.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

I could write a 10 page essay on the subject but, I lack the energy and you’ll just tell me the orange man is playing 5d chess. I'll just leave this here:

 

[Jetflag]

I still don’t know what the fuss is about

 

[LostLegend]

JD Vance calling the UK a "random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years"
Trump withdrawing all aid to Ukraine.
Russian state media widely celebrating.

Alienating it's allies and cozying up to Putin. It's all pretty wild.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

JD Vance calling the UK a "random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years"

Your list was the big highlights, though there are many more. The one above was the one that truly scorched me. He's trying to walk it back, but fuck him, he said what he said (and he meant it regardless of what he says today). Only France and the UK proposed peacekeeping troops after all. 600+ UK soldiers died with us in Iraq and Afghanistan. This is so remarkably offensive it's beyond what I could have imagined.

And just a real life impact - stock markets are tanking in the US b/c of tarrifs. The tariffs will amount to the largest regressive tax increase for US consumers in who knows how long. They are going to directly affect my livelihood and for what? Trump fucking negotiated a trade deal which he's now going back on. Trudeau, while I hate the guy, was remarkably direct this morning about this. Meanwhile, Russian stocks go up as the US seeks sanctions relief for them while getting nothing in return. I kinda wonder if we might go fight with Russia in Ukraine next? Lol. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

 

[Jetflag]

JD Vance calling the UK a "random country that hasn't fought a war in 30 or 40 years"

where’s the lie? As a single country outside NATO or other partnerships they haven’t, same with NL

Trump withdrawing all aid to Ukraine.

Expected..

Russian state media widely celebrating.

Not just expected, Standard behaviour (its Russian state propaganda, all they pretty much do is skew things positively for vlad)

Alienating its allies and cozying up to Putin.

So, pretty much business as usual then?

fuck and here I was thinking I missed out on Trump invading Greenland or something