Hamas attacking Universo Parallelo psytrance festival in Israel

[Ruya]

Well there is obviously a difference between the attacker and the one responding to it.

If two people break into my house, kill my husband, and as a response I kill then both. Am I worse as it’s 2-1 murder-wise?

Makes no sense what you said. The situation is more akin to having someone kill your husband, and you going into the street and murdering as many people you can in the town next door, who have nothing to do with it. That's called senseless revenge.

 

[Julian Del Agranda]

I actually agree now that I read my own reply. I did not put down very well what I wanted to say.

 

[Jetflag]

I actually agree now that I read my own reply. I did not put down very well what I wanted to say.

you do have a point in that Hamas struck first. And that yes, Isreal (especially with their Iron Dome compromised) has to respond if only to protect its citizens.

if we're going numbers in such a conflict (and this might grind peoples gears a bit but its a god's honest truth) there isn't that much practical or even ethical difference between 1 or 1,5 thousand.

the big question now is how to move on?

my suggestion: Hire the Dutch, make a copy of Israel in the Sea 50 miles offshore in the mediteranian below cyprus with infrastructure and all and give that to the palestinians wanting to build a national future for themselves, and have isreal pay for it.

not optimal. but hey ho there you go.

 

[nightslapper]

you do have a point in that Hamas struck first. And that yes, Isreal (especially with their Iron Dome compromised) has to respond if only to protect its citizens.

if we're going numbers in such a conflict (and this might grind peoples gears a bit but its a god's honest truth) there isn't that much practical or even ethical difference between 1 or 1,5 thousand.

the big question now is how to move on?

my suggestion: Hire the Dutch, make a copy of Israel in the Sea 50 miles offshore in the mediteranian below cyprus with infrastructure and all and give that to the palestinians wanting to build a national future for themselves, and have isreal pay for it.

not optimal. but hey ho there you go.

I am not sure at all that it's fair to say that Hamas struck first like it happened out of the blue, like there was no background, no nearly a century of the developing of this story with constant pressure from Israel side over Palestina that led Palestinians living in the inhumane conditions. I don't say that Hamas aren't terrorists - they are, but what else you'd expect to be the leading force in a society put in these obstacles with insane level of unemployment, with no opportunities for young people to have a bright future?

It's pretty much the same semi-blind concept as when you get told that Evil Vlad Putin forgot to take his kindness pills in the morning of 24 Feb last year and Russian orks attacked Ukrainian elves, like there wasn't a background with both sides systematically doing nothing but making the conflict inevitable..

that's the concept that sure is easy to sell through the mass media but that's how they lie and manipulate the masses

 

[Jetflag]

I am not sure at all that it's fair to say that Hamas struck first like it happened out of the blue, like there was no background, no nearly a century of the developing of this story with constant pressure from Israel side over Palestina that led Palestinians living in the inhumane conditions. I don't say that Hamas aren't terrorists - they are, but what else you'd expect to be the leading force in a society put in these obstacles with insane level of unemployment, with no opportunities for young people to have a bright future?

It's pretty much the same semi-blind concept as when you get told that Evil Vlad Putin forgot to take his kindness pills in the morning of 24 Feb last year and Russian orks attacked Ukrainian elves, like there wasn't a background with both sides systematically doing nothing but making the conflict inevitable..

that's the concept that sure is easy to sell through the mass media but that's how they lie and manipulate the masses

I didn’t say it happened out of the blue, I said they struck first, which they did, same with vlad the chad.
If you have a 10 year hiatus between a militairy back & forth or regime change in case of Ukraine,

then yes, Hamas & Russia threw the first punches. And as such Ukraine and Israel are the defending parties.

now ofcourse there’s history, I don’t deny that..but the problem with that mode of thinking is that it becomes a pick & choose matter of which (part of) history you (or I) deem relevant for said subject matter.

Like.. what’s a relevant cutoff point? 50 years? A hundred? Five hundred etc.

you can justify any (preamtive) attack that way and what’s more, you elicitate an unending vendetta spiral which only ends if one or both parties are utterly destroyed

 

[nightslapper]

I didn’t say it happened out of the blue, I said they struck first, which they did, same with vlad the chad.
If you have a 10 year hiatus between a militairy back & forth or regime change in case of Ukraine,

then yes, Hamas & Russia threw the first punches. And as such Ukraine and Israel are the defending parties.

now ofcourse there’s history, I don’t deny that..but the problem with that mode of thinking is that it becomes a pick & choose matter of which (part of) history you (or I) deem relevant for said subject matter.

Like.. what’s a relevant cutoff point? 50 years? A hundred? Five hundred etc.

you can justify any (preamtive) attack that way and what’s more, you elicitate an unending vendetta spiral which only ends if one or both parties are utterly destroyed

you just don't get it. by picking the starting point the one you pick, you're doing the exact same thing that you're trying to counterargue.

 

[Jetflag]

you just don't get it. by picking the starting point the one you pick, you're doing the exact same thing that you're trying to counterargue.

No, i don’t.

I don’t pick a preferred point somewhere wet-finger in history, I (consistently) take the most recent point, (given there’s a relevant hiatus, so we’re not talking hours or days here)

 

[Hensmon]

I don't say that Hamas aren't terrorists - they are, but what else you'd expect to be the leading force in a society put in these obstacles with insane level of unemployment, with no opportunities for young people to have a bright future?

It's even worse than this. The most densely populated area on earth has had hell reign down on it more times than we can count. The terror and desperation that must produce is truly unimaginable. Severe psychological damage across the whole population across multiple generations. Combine that with the oppressive control Israel applies on Gaza (controlling all resources/movement in and out) and any basic anthropological take tells you this is the perfect condition needed to create more violent extremism.

It confuses me so much about Israels ongoing policy on this. Everything they do will only promote more terrorism and less chances of peace, and you'd have to be blind not to understand that. It's the most counterproductive policy for peace imaginable.

 

[nightslapper]

No, i don’t.

I don’t pick a preferred point somewhere wet-finger in history, I (consistently) take the most recent point, (given there’s a relevant hiatus, so we’re not talking hours or days here)

in fact, you willingly PREFER to pick the recent point based on what you call hiatus but there's no such thing in reality. the military conflicts have the same nature as the 'peaceful' politics, it's just a different tool that is being used to reach the same objectives. and there's no hiatus in politics, it's an everyday thing. everyday of what you'd probably call normal living in Gaza was making that strike closer. it's not like there were two states that are cool as they are but one are just dicks so they decided to break the status quo.

It's sad that quite some people live with this delusional idealistic picture of what's going on, where things just happen unrelated to each other, like different episodes of a tv show

 

[Jetflag]

in fact, you willingly PREFER to pick the recent point based on what you call hiatus but there's no such thing in reality. the military conflicts have the same nature as the 'peaceful' politics, it's just a different tool that is being used to reach the same objectives. and there's no hiatus in politics, it's an everyday thing. everyday of what you'd probably call normal living in Gaza was making that strike closer. it's not like there were two states that are cool as they are but one are just dicks so they decided to break the status quo.

lol wut? and where exactly have I said they where / have somehow denied context in this? oh thats right.. I haven't. We where talking about which in this recent conflict is the attacking versus the defending side in terms of militairy/terrorist strikes, per @Magnevi 's comment. This is regardless of whether or not the attack was provoked or invoked. and whether or not I think its justified or not.

And if (in any context regarding such & similar aggression) it by your logic is somehow flawed to assign attacking party to the one throwing the first punch after a 10 year hiatus...

then pray tell, @nightslapper...

how do you specifically pick and choose which markers are relevant for deciding which is the defending v attacking party in a(ny) militairy conflict with a decennia hiatus between them?

- tribalism?
- Patriotism/Jingoism?
- Ideology/religion?
- prefered media narrative?
- something i forgot up there perhaps?

And you're not pinning on me that you've taken ALL of history and context into account, since no-one, not even the most astute autistic high IQ scolar can process that much data.

go on then? if you're feel like going after me for what is a fairly straighforward observation in this conflict you can at least do me the curtiousy of answering that.

It's sad that quite some people live with this delusional idealistic picture of what's going on, where things just happen unrelated to each other, like different episodes of a tv show

what delusional idealistic picture am I living in precisely and are you familiar with the term: "strawman" ?

 

[Jetflag]

It confuses me so much about Israels ongoing policy on this. Everything they do will only promote more terrorism and less chances of peace, and you'd have to be blind not to understand that. It's the most counterproductive policy for peace imaginable.

I think it was Netanyahu or one of his henchmen who said something along the lines of: "if you want to support Isreal, Support Hamas"

 

[nightslapper]

lol wut? and where exactly have I said they where / have somehow denied context in this? oh thats right.. I haven't. We where talking about which in this recent conflict is the attacking versus the defending side in terms of militairy/terrorist strikes, per @Magnevi 's comment. This is regardless of whether or not the attack was provoked or invoked. and whether or not I think its justified or not.

And if (in any context regarding such & similar aggression) it by your logic is somehow flawed to assign attacking party to the one throwing the first punch after a 10 year hiatus...

then pray tell, @nightslapper...

how do you specifically pick and choose which markers are relevant for deciding which is the defending v attacking party in a(ny) militairy conflict with a decennia hiatus between them?

- tribalism?
- Patriotism/Jingoism?
- Ideology/religion?
- prefered media narrative?
- something i forgot up there perhaps?

And you're not pinning on me that you've taken ALL of history and context into account, since no-one, not even the most astute autistic high IQ scolar can process that much data.

go on then? if you're feel like going after me for what is a fairly straighforward observation in this conflict you can at least do me the curtiousy of answering that.



what delusional idealistic picture am I living in precisely and are you familiar with the term: "strawman" ?

well if we're downshifting to 'lolwut' type of discussion, it's best just to agree to disagree

after all, it's naive of me thinking everyone on a trance forum would be politically (and logically) conscious

 

[LostLegend]

Fair to say fighting a war based on ideologies with bombs and bullets rarely if ever works out.

My Mothers side of the family are from The Republic of Ireland.
So we are no strangers to how dividing up a populace with heavy handed policing and military actions can cause generations of anger and resentment and in the end it was diplomacy that brought an end to the violence, not the years of bullets, bombs and bloodshed.

Ultimately, like the troubles in Northern Ireland, the issues in Israel & Palastine will never go away, but this constant cycle of death wont end anything and is only fostering the next generation of hatred.

Which is why it pisses me off no end to see various world leaders 'taking sides' on this.

 

[Jetflag]

well if we're downshifting to 'lolwut' type of discussion, it's best just to agree to disagree

after all, it's naive of me thinking everyone on a trance forum would be politically (and logically) conscious

If we have to agree to disagree that the role of attacker befalls the party striking first after a 10 year hiatus, then yes, not everyone on this trance forum is logically conscious

 

[Jetflag]

Which is why it pisses me off no end to see various world leaders 'taking sides' on this.

basically:

 

[Hot Tuna]

There hasn't been anything like a "10 year hiatus" though. I would expect most people with even a casual eye on the news to recall the bombardments of just 2 years ago.

In October 2020, an Israeli court ruled that several Palestinian families living in Sheikh Jarrah—a neighborhood in East Jerusalem—were to be evicted by May 2021 with their land handed over to Jewish families. In February 2021, several Palestinian families from Sheikh Jarrah filed an appeal to the court ruling, prompting protests around the appeal hearings, the ongoing legal battle around property ownership, and the forcible displacement of Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem.

In late April 2021, Palestinians began demonstrating in the streets of Jerusalem to protest the pending evictions, and residents of Sheikh Jarrah—along with other activists—began to host nightly sit-ins. In early May, after a court ruled in favor of the evictions, the protests expanded, with Israeli police deploying force against demonstrators. On May 7, following weeks of daily demonstrations and rising tensions between protesters, Israeli settlers, and police during the month of Ramadan, violence broke out at the al-Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem, with Israeli police using stun grenades, rubber bullets, and water cannons in a clash with protestors that left hundreds of Palestinians wounded.

After the clashes in Jerusalem’s Old City, tensions increased throughout East Jerusalem, compounded by the celebration of Jerusalem Day. On May 10, after several consecutive days of violence throughout Jerusalem and the use of lethal and nonlethal force by Israeli police, Hamas, the militant group which governs Gaza, and other Palestinian militant groups launched hundreds of rockets into Israeli territory.

Israel responded with artillery bombardments and airstrikes, several of which killed more than twenty Palestinians, against targets in Gaza. While claiming to target Hamas, other militants (such as those from Palestinian Islamic Jihad), and their infrastructure—including tunnels and rocket launchers—Israel expanded its aerial campaign and struck non-military infrastructure including residential buildings, media headquarters, and refugee and healthcare facilities.

On May 21, 2021, Israel and Hamas agreed to a cease-fire, brokered by Egypt, with both sides claiming victory. More than 250 Palestinians were killed and nearly 2,000 others wounded, and at least 13 Israelis were killed over the eleven days of fighting. Authorities in Gaza estimate that tens of millions of dollars of damage was done, and the United Nations estimates that more than 72,000 Palestinians were displaced by the fighting.

 

[Hensmon]

A sniper also killed a kid in 2023. 3 other children were also killed on the same day by the IDF. Note this is in Jenin, nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas, so the 'fighting terrorism' rhetoric that is supposed to set in motion these sort of tragedies is not applicable.

Similar in 2021 when a video was released of an Israeli sniper shooting an unarmed civilian and then cheering (link)

 

[nightslapper]

A sniper also killed a kid in 2023. 3 other children were also killed on the same day by the IDF. Note this is in Jenin, nothing to do with Gaza or Hamas, so the 'fighting terrorism' rhetoric that is supposed to set in motion these sort of tragedies is not applicable.

Similar in 2021 when a video was released of an Israeli sniper shooting an unarmed civilian and then cheering (link)

after all there's a simple way to find out who's more evil - take any military conflict and check who's side the US are on - voilà, they're the proper villains, works every time, all the time

even in the WW2 which is a kind of an exception, US we're pursuing their own economical interests by 'saving' the Europe with the Marshall Plan to get it in debt and thus lose its political sovereignty. and now they used the Russia-Ukraine conflict to finally set European economy on its knees. that's offtopic though sorries

 

[Archon]

Pretty nice commentary.

The Real Dividing Line in Israel-Palestine | by Slavoj Žižek - Project Syndicate

Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.

www.project-syndicate.org

 

[Jetflag]

Pretty nice commentary.

The Real Dividing Line in Israel-Palestine | by Slavoj Žižek - Project Syndicate

Slavoj Žižek argues that the solution to a conflict dominated by fundamentalists depends on combining two extremes.

www.project-syndicate.org

Good read. Its even better because its rare for me to agree with a Hegelian on something