Religion, faith, spirituality...

Meh

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Gagi

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You're simply wrong, and I'll probably dismiss everything you say. No point in arguing any further as I don't think you're capable of critical thinking.
 
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Meh

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sounds to me the common denominator in both religion and science (both the good and the bad)

is humans.

which is why I fundamentally disagree with you that religion is the root of all evil, and that science brings facism.
Both to me are evil because it's narcissism of both extremes. Whether you work for the corporation or government. One runs experiments on you while the other profits from treatment.
You're simply wrong, and I'll probably dismiss everything you say. No point in arguing any further as I don't think you're capable of critical thinking.
Me capable of critical thinking? Religion is based on a belief system and it's believing without evidence and when you believe in anything, it justifies anything and no wonder why religion continues to get a free ride because religion was there first. Eventually religion will consume everything anyway including me because I won't have a choice, which is why the internet was invented. The internet inherently breaks the laws of mathematics and it's free which is why data is the new oil hence why I think it's that it's religion that controls us not science.
That's not to say that science doesn't get a free ride either - Why do you think data has become the new oil? It's designed to enslave humanity to serve us better because everything is just numbers these days. The only people that are truly free are religious people and governments that run crazy experiments and start wars against others. It's down to politics because it is a movement which to me is very dangerous. It's down to politics because it is a movement which to me is very dangerous and to me no different than religion because it's a movement to bring in a change which is known as noble cause corruption.
 

jetflag

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Both to me are evil because it's narcissism of both extremes. Whether you work for the corporation or government. One runs experiments on you while the other profits from treatment.

Your argument in a nuttshell is in essence, if I may attempt to steelman you:

(large) hierarchies tend towards corruption: therefor large hierarchies (potentially) bad

I agree. unfortunatly for you (and me), the formation of (large) hierarchies are an essential part of the human condition, at least as a species.

They're essentially inevitable/unavoidable.

Yours (and mine) only salvation are systems that are least prone to that due to way they're setup. But any sufficient lare/powerfull human insititute (which can also be science though a distinction needs to be made between science as an insitutional body and science as a methodology) is, sooner or later, prone to corruption.

this is not an aspect of the systems in question so much as it is a human aspect. Your problem is it seems more with humans and how they function, instead of the symptoms of that in the form of either religions, or government, or schoolyard bully-clubs. or certain scientific institutes publishing research on how smoking is actually good for you etc..

That being said: despite all the fundamental flaws, (if you'll endulge me in giving you a small, but still potentially significant little white pill)

We've still managed to evolve as a species into something capable of wielding not only great malevolence, but compassion.

We've not only tamed/used and abused nature, but also protected it, repaired it on occasion and even allowed it to flourish from the point of extinction.

We've decreased overall human suffering to the the lowest point in all of history.

We've managed to set foot on dead worlds, and though we haven't brought life to that, yet, there's no reason to assume that in the near future we won' do so.

now can we fuck it up down the drain to the point of no return? sure. But looking back at the set of things we've overcome I think there's also reasonable hope to be considered.

So...do with that what you will :)
 
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Katadunkass

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The internet inherently breaks the laws of mathematics
Dude, are you high or what does that even mean? So, are you saying we can never prove / disprove the Riemann Zeta Function, the Collatz Conjecture or suddenly make it so that two even numbers added together will make an odd one all because we invented the Internet in the 60's? Euler's Identity is suddenly no longer true, Pythagoras also works for circles and 4 comes after 7?
 

jetflag

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(I think he's using the term as an allagory for "superduper very groundbreaking")
 
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Meh

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Your argument in a nuttshell is in essence, if I may attempt to steelman you:

(large) hierarchies tend towards corruption: therefor large hierarchies (potentially) bad

I agree. unfortunatly for you (and me), the formation of (large) hierarchies are an essential part of the human condition, at least as a species.

They're essentially inevitable/unavoidable.

Yours (and mine) only salvation are systems that are least prone to that due to way they're setup. But any sufficient lare/powerfull human insititute (which can also be science though a distinction needs to be made between science as an insitutional body and science as a methodology) is, sooner or later, prone to corruption.

this is not an aspect of the systems in question so much as it is a human aspect. Your problem is it seems more with humans and how they function, instead of the symptoms of that in the form of either religions, or government, or schoolyard bully-clubs. or certain scientific institutes publishing research on how smoking is actually good for you etc..

That being said: despite all the fundamental flaws, (if you'll endulge me in giving you a small, but still potentially significant little white pill)

We've still managed to evolve as a species into something capable of wielding not only great malevolence, but compassion.

We've not only tamed/used and abused nature, but also protected it, repaired it on occasion and even allowed it to flourish from the point of extinction.

We've decreased overall human suffering to the the lowest point in all of history.

We've managed to set foot on dead worlds, and though we haven't brought life to that, yet, there's no reason to assume that in the near future we won' do so.

now can we fuck it up down the drain to the point of no return? sure. But looking back at the set of things we've overcome I think there's also reasonable hope to be considered.

So...do with that what you will :)


I don't know if being in the west has really reduced the suffering or have we just masked it well. I was much happier when I wasn't in the west. The west makes me feel more depressed with these high rise buildings and with the constant stories of people killing themselves/committing suicide or hurting others. That to me doesn't seem like it has reduced suffering. Male suicide is at an all time high because how messed up the environment is because of these high rise buildings.


Dude, are you high or what does that even mean? So, are you saying we can never prove / disprove the Riemann Zeta Function, the Collatz Conjecture or suddenly make it so that two even numbers added together will make an odd one all because we invented the Internet in the 60's? Euler's Identity is suddenly no longer true, Pythagoras also works for circles and 4 comes after 7?
The internet is a paradox because it's something from nothing. It's towards infinity and beyond and no matter what you do, you can't shut it down or put a dent on it. Cyberspace is space. The internet is basically a tear here on earth because it's towards infinity and beyond and endless. What it has done is created a tear here on earth.
 

jetflag

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I don't know if being in the west has really reduced the suffering or have we just masked it well. I was much happier when I wasn't in the west. The west makes me feel more depressed with these high rise buildings and with the constant stories of people killing themselves/committing suicide or hurting others. That to me doesn't seem like it has reduced suffering. Male suicide is at an all time high because how messed up the environment is because of these high rise buildings

where exactly are you from if you don't mind me asking? are you born in "the west" or did you emmigrate there? Also, I highly doubt its high-rise architecture itself that is killing all the men psychologically, (aside from them being more effecient tools to (succesfully) jump from but that aside) or lack of nature.

its been suggested that the depression problem in the west is precisely because things are so safe and wealthy, as compared to the rest of history. This taps into a brach of psychology/philosophy that dicates that, in order for Man to find meaning and thus happiness, suffering or struggle to a degree is essential. It also explains why we see so many quote on quote "makeshift problems" being totally devistating to the generation(s) that grew up in a place without (much) struggle

if you have nothing to overcome and suffering/strife is essential for you as a (human) caracter. You have to either 1, make up stuff. 2 find small stuff and blow that up to disproportinal importance. (which is where we for instance get the term "micro agression" from)

as for male suicide specically, i would argue that it 1: doesn't help if everything you do or don't do is deemed "toxic" by a certain ideology that has dominated the insitutions for the last 30 years. and 2: if you look at attempted suicides you'll see that the numbers compared to women are (relatlivly) equal. The reason more men die is because men seem to be more able to use (sufficiently) deadly force on themselves, on top of the fact that women (on average) are comparitvely far better (biologically) at coping with emotions.


the internet is a game changer, yes. but its not a paradox. it didn't come from nothing, its not eternal, and you can shut it down. (courtisy of say: a giant solarflare, gamma ray bust from a distance neutron star, meteorite impact etc. or even just more mudaine things like server monopolie(s) )
 
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Katadunkass

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The internet is a paradox because it's something from nothing. It's towards infinity and beyond and no matter what you do, you can't shut it down or put a dent on it. Cyberspace is space. The internet is basically a tear here on earth because it's towards infinity and beyond and endless. What it has done is created a tear here on earth.
This is honestly almost beyond me - there are so many wrongs things about these statements I have no idea where to even begin. Dude, the Internet is not a paradox and it's definitely not "something from nothing". It's a network of BISPs, NAPs, ISPs and so on and if you "zoom" in even further you'll get electrons and so on. We invented the Internet and it's not some big mystery like the episode of South Park. And come on, it's definitely not endless, what are you even talking about? Of course the Internet can be shut down. A solarflare will do the job pretty effectively.
 
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Meh

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Offensive content.
Admin edit: Post removed.
 
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jetflag

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There's a damn shame, Now I would have really like to read whatever the hell it was that I wrote that made you lash out in such a way as to trigger an offence comment strike, (as to what I consider to be a polite and non-offensive reaction from my part..)

though as a (i think) fellow male suffering from (a form off) depression/angst I can empathize/relate to the lash-out instinct as I have that myself against any infohazard...

So consider it an invitation to Pm it to me (I think thats allowed @Admin?) . I'm pretty hard to offend, and I hereby give my consent/invite. :)
Admin edit: Post removed.
 
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Gagi

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Just some usual unintelligible BS (for which he was already warned), along with a statement that can be a bit offensive to some.

Was offtopic on top of that, so let's keep it ontopic from now on. You can continue your chat via PM, yes.
 
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Hensmon

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as for male suicide specically, i would argue that it 1: doesn't help if everything you do or don't do is deemed "toxic" by a certain ideology that has dominated the insitutions for the last 30 years.

I don't want to go off topic but could not disagree more with what your are implying here. Of all the things contributing to depression, suicides, anxiety etc thats the one you choose? It is NOT because some Gillette advert told us boys play fighting is bad, or because a Me Too movement dominated twitter for a handful of months that this is happening. Yes those things can be dumb and annoying, but outside of the social media and youtube bubble NO ONE gives a flying fuck about that stuff, cmon.

I have had a few friends and people I know commit suicide and also many dealing with depression/anxiety and I can assure you they were not led to this because some mega corporation got too woke. To bring it back on topic I think the argument made that religion provides a community, purpose and life framework is actually very strong (even if you don't want to be orthodox or heavy practicer). You could argue that the collapse of religious institutions and uptake in the west over the last few decades is a big contributor to people feeling lost or alone. For what its worth I also put environmental factors/stressors such as diet/gut health, certain pollutions, and loss of real human interaction as some reasons too.
 
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dmgtz96

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its been suggested that the depression problem in the west is precisely because things are so safe and wealthy, as compared to the rest of history. This taps into a brach of psychology/philosophy that dicates that, in order for Man to find meaning and thus happiness, suffering or struggle to a degree is essential. It also explains why we see so many quote on quote "makeshift problems" being totally devistating to the generation(s) that grew up in a place without (much) struggle

if you have nothing to overcome and suffering/strife is essential for you as a (human) caracter. You have to either 1, make up stuff. 2 find small stuff and blow that up to disproportinal importance. (which is where we for instance get the term "micro agression" from)
The entire woke movement in a nutshell

I don't want to go off topic but could not disagree more with what your are implying here. Of all the things contributing to depression, suicides, anxiety etc thats the one you choose? It is NOT because some Gillette advert told us boys play fighting is bad, or because a Me Too movement dominated twitter for a handful of months that this is happening. Yes those things can be dumb and annoying, but outside of the social media and youtube bubble NO ONE gives a flying fuck about that stuff, cmon.

I have had a few friends and people I know commit suicide and also many dealing with depression/anxiety and I can assure you they were not led to this because some mega corporation got too woke. To bring it back on topic I think the argument made that religion provides a community, purpose and life framework is actually very strong (even if you don't want to be orthodox or heavy practicer). You could argue that the collapse of religious institutions and uptake in the west over the last few decades is a big contributor to people feeling lost or alone. For what its worth I also put environmental factors/stressors such as diet/gut health, certain pollutions, and loss of real human interaction as some reasons too.
Yeah, that's the kind of rhetoric you would find in far/alt-right sites. I dislike the woke movement as much as both of you guys do, but I've only seen this school of thought being pushed by far/alt-right authors.
IMO male suicide worldwide is on the rise because it's becoming increasingly difficult to achieve the life milestones that were easy to get in the US shortly after world-war 2. I'm talking about owning land and a house with a white picket fence (in the 'burbs), getting married, and having children. In the past, you could do all this relatively easily with just a high school education working for the local manufacturing plant or coal mine, but now you need a college degree to get the stereotypical good "office job." Depending on your country, college is either insanely expensive (USA) or incredibly difficult to get admitted. In Mexico, Brazil, India, and Korea if you want to attend a good, reputable government-subsidized university you need to work your ass off and be in the top % of the national entrance exams. Not sure how things are like in Europe.
Anyways...
Building wealth nowadays is hard, especially if you're coming from nothing. No inheritance, no family business you can take over, no property, nada. I would guess most people in the world are like that. Without them it's hard to have the stereotypical "successful adult" life. All these factors eventually lead to depression, hopelessness, and eventually... well, I don't need to say it.

That's my hypothesis, anyways.
 
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jetflag

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I don't want to go off topic but could not disagree more with what your are implying here. Of all the things contributing to depression, suicides, anxiety etc thats the one you choose? It is NOT because some Gillette advert told us boys play fighting is bad, or because a Me Too movement dominated twitter for a handful of months that this is happening. Yes those things can be dumb and annoying, but outside of the social media and youtube bubble NO ONE gives a flying fuck about that stuff, cmon.

I have had a few friends and people I know commit suicide and also many dealing with depression/anxiety and I can assure you they were not led to this because some mega corporation got too woke. To bring it back on topic I think the argument made that religion provides a community, purpose and life framework is actually very strong (even if you don't want to be orthodox or heavy practicer). You could argue that the collapse of religious institutions and uptake in the west over the last few decades is a big contributor to people feeling lost or alone. For what its worth I also put environmental factors/stressors such as diet/gut health, certain pollutions, and loss of real human interaction as some reasons too.
i'll happily discuss this with you in further detail or in a PM or seperate topic. this isn't the place. sufficed to say I whole heartily disagree with you downplaying the problem to "just dumb and annoying" "a couple of months" and "some gillete advert".. and find it either 1, ignorant, 2 unethical. The fact that you've lost persons to suicide who've not had themselves guilt tripped into the ground for just having a penis doesn't mean none else did, Hensmon. Infact you're talking to one. So if you want to make this about personal experience lets go...

which is an invite to dmgtz96 aswell who apparantly thinks someone like J peterson is aparantly far/alt-right now, for acknowledging the unreasonalbe societal and psychological pressures (dominant) woke culture puts on (western) men.

I"ll set up shop in a different thread where we can continue this conversation
 
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Meh

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well waddayaknow. @Meh was right!

🤯
Religion takes in billions of dollars - pays no taxes but they always need a little more. They always interested in politics but don't want to pay any taxes.
 

jetflag

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i meant you where right about the internet breaking the law of mathematics. Concerning religion i think your analysis and conclusion of it is rather basic/ simplistic
:)