Thoughts on USA this year?

jetflag

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The first two have been fact checked. The first is straight-up false, and the second is unproven. I don't know what to say about the third - haven't investigated much into it.
Look, Trump can cry voter fraud as much as he'd like. Clearly, those things are worth investigating. Want to know my guess about what will happen?

My guess is that, if voter fraud happened, it will affect Trump more than Biden. We had a similar case in the 2006 elections in Mexico. The losing candidate, Andres Manuel (who's the current president btw) cried voter fraud, and his supporters launched a nation-wide campaign with a catchy slogan. It turned out that Andres Manuel lost more votes than the winning candidate, increasing the margins even further.
fact checked by who? link please?

also maajid nawaz just tweeted this article, quite eyebrow raising



and you're free to guess anything you want, but I don't have to tel you that the US isn't mexico or any other country for that matter, and it won't be the first time a recount vavors the seating president.

But we'll see won't we? I think we both agree that democracy /the system will only gain from dilligence
 

Gagi

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I feel like there's a lot of people who were voting against Trump, rather than for Biden, and there's a couple of you who would've done the same if you had the chance.

But, as always, it's a decision between a douche and a turd. I wouldn't wanna vote for either of them. One seems like a lunatic but is actually playing strong-arm politics whenever he can, and the other seems like a psychopath.
 
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jetflag

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things haven't changed all that much in the us really. 50 vote rep. 50 vote dem. generally. Both camps haven't been able to bring forth a credible candidate for a while now. I find the dems especially jaring though. how terrible must you be as a party to put forth candidates that 1 lose, and then 2 almost lose (no blue wave, court case impending) from Donald trump, blackswan 0 political training tv star? All the reps have to find for 2024 is a semi credible candiate and joe biden wil join trump and nixon in 4 years of presidency.
 

Hensmon

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All the reps have to find for 2024 is a semi credible candiate and joe biden wil join trump and nixon in 4 years of presidency.
They already tried in 2016, but apparently none were better than Trump.

That's the lowest point of a party you can imagine, that you have to turn to a man like Trump to represent your ideas and leadership. Essentially you have no integrity left at that point, it is the lowest of the low, and everyone knows that. The dems at least have some respectable candidates i.e Sanders, Gabbard or Yang. Regardless of their political beliefs they are not an embarrassment to humankind, in fact they are great candidates for the dems. Unfortunately the established power within the party will never let decent and intelligent people like them succeed, because they actually represent a true change to the current consolidation of power.

Question...would you say the Republicans have had any passable candidates in the last 30 years? If so who? I cant think of a single decent Republican apart from Rand Paul, but he never ran unfortunately.

p.s I do intend to reply to your longer post from a weeks back when I get the time, as I find those kinds of broader discussion on politics much more interesting the the soap opera stuff of the moment.
 
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dmgtz96

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I feel like there's a lot of people who were voting against Trump, rather than for Biden, and there's a couple of you who would've done the same if you had the chance.

But, as always, it's a decision between a douche and a turd. I wouldn't wanna vote for either of them. One seems like a lunatic but is actually playing strong-arm politics whenever he can, and the other seems like a psychopath.
Correct. There wasn't as much enthusiasm for Biden as there would have been for Sanders/Yang. His previous actions like the 1994 crime bill hurt him with minority populations (Latinos/Black).
I think Trump's strong-arm policies were going to hurt the US in the long run. Oh, so you want to threaten our international organization? If we don't do as you want, you're going to leave the org?
Every other country: Do whatever you want, buddy. We don't want you here.

things haven't changed all that much in the us really. 50 vote rep. 50 vote dem. generally. Both camps haven't been able to bring forth a credible candidate for a while now. I find the dems especially jaring though. how terrible must you be as a party to put forth candidates that 1 lose, and then 2 almost lose (no blue wave, court case impending) from Donald trump, blackswan 0 political training tv star? All the reps have to find for 2024 is a semi credible candiate and joe biden wil join trump and nixon in 4 years of presidency.
Yeah, there's that, but you also have to consider the extreme polarization in the US. A Trump supporter is not suddenly going to vote for Biden. This election was largely urban vs. rural, with urban voters going for Biden and rural voters going for Trump. The election propaganda by Fox News and co. was very effective at locking in those rural voters. Trump won in Florida thanks to how his campaign depicted Biden: as a socialist (which is untrue, but they can claim whatever they want). That drew Cuban-American and Venezuelan-American voters towards the Republican party.
Heck, some Trump supporters are so loyal to him that they'll vote Republican no matter what happens. I remember seeing some tweets on r/LeopardsAteMyFace from Trump supporters saying they've voted for him but want him to pass a 2nd stimulus check as they already lost their job and are going hungry. That's mind-blowing.

I agree in that the Dems will be at risk in 2024. They have to accomplish a lot within this term. If Covid is still going on, the economy is still crap, and then they put forward a mediocre candidate in 2024, they're screwed.
I don't think Biden will go for re-election in 2024. He knows he's a stepping stone for more progressive ideals, and I think he will allow a more exciting, progressive candidate to run for president.
 
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dmgtz96

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fact checked by who? link please?

also maajid nawaz just tweeted this article, quite eyebrow raising



and you're free to guess anything you want, but I don't have to tel you that the US isn't mexico or any other country for that matter, and it won't be the first time a recount vavors the seating president.

But we'll see won't we? I think we both agree that democracy /the system will only gain from dilligence
factcheck.org. It has a center bias.
About that tweet: We'll see about that once the court cases and investigations end.
Of course, I never claimed the US is Mexico or any other country. It's not the first time that I've seen the losing (presidential) candidate reject the election results, but given Trump's propensity to cheat (in business, his personal life, etc.) I think it's more likely that he ends up losing more votes than Biden.
 
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jetflag

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factcheck.org. It has a center bias.
About that tweet: We'll see about that once the court cases and investigations end.
Of course, I never claimed the US is Mexico or any other country. It's not the first time that I've seen the losing (presidential) candidate reject the election results, but given Trump's propensity to cheat (in business, his personal life, etc.) I think it's more likely that he ends up losing more votes than Biden.
hence me posted it, they don't appear to lean left nor right,

edit sorry misread, I though you where refering to my linked article
 
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jetflag

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They already tried in 2016, but apparently none were better than Trump.

yeah, and how bad do you have to be to lose to him and then nearly lose again, court cases impending?

Question...would you say the Republicans have had any passable candidates in the last 30 years? If so who? I cant think of a single decent Republican apart from Rand Paul, but he never ran unfortunately.

Nominee or presidential candidate? for the first I would go with Ben Carson and the second Reagan who ended his term matching Roosevelts approval, 68%

and, though i wouldn't call Trump decent as in decency, bush jr was far worse despite everybody and their dog seemingly suffering from Trumphobia and claiming hes a facist dictator somehow..

Edit, oh, it seems that me and (lefty journo) glenn greenwalt actually agree on this :oops:



lol :ROFLMAO: great, i'm a pinko now.
p.s I do intend to reply to your longer post from a weeks back when I get the time, as I find those kinds of broader discussion on politics much more interesting the the soap opera stuff of the moment.

sure thing, looking forward to it
 
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Hensmon

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@jetflag There's a certain irrelevance to your 'we beat them, and he's better than him' kind of comparisons you keep making. People like Trump 'win' because of campaign tactics, rhetoric and the nature of idealogical tribalism, not because of capabilities or qualities. How much substance a candidate has unfortunately seems to be less pivotal than how much style they have, and all victories operate within that vector. Over-analysing the nuances of the trash in order to postulate ' look how bad the dems are' is a pointless exercise to me, it tells us nothing.

I find the memes equally eye-rolling and tribalistic if i'm honest, if even posted half-seriously. The bomb one is a good example of the pointless sparing between the two sides via each others garbage. Yes, the Dems and The Repubs both bomb, a deplorable action and both containing hypocrisy (although your meme only demonstrates that on the Dem side here). Why on earth is the debate never about who is NOT going to be bombing, I wonder??? I wont state the obvious of where those potential leaders are currently found.

My point is that the focus should be entirely on the good ideas and the great leadership candidates. There is no question that at least in UK and U.S politics within the last 10+ years that they are currently all coming from the Left. Both Left and Right institutions are at bursting point with war-mongering, corrupt and outrageously stupid politicians and we can spend all day cherry picking the anecdotes of each to form our arguments, but in the rare occasion we come across politicians with worthy levels of political integrity they are currently residing on the Left. Again that is the likes of Sanders, Corbyn, Gabbard, Yang... I do not believe these traits are exclusive to left-wing individuals, just that the Right wing has failed to deliver a single offering with integrity since before I was born.

This is not a debate just on ideology. I want decent, intellectual individuals, who have a moral compass, consistency in principles, actual ideas, not narcissistic, not extreme egotists, not pathological liars, and who do not rely on hitting the lowest common denomination of emotive divisiveness and fear based rhetoric. An insane obsession with ideology and on which side the individual falls has completely unhinged us from demanding those type of requirements as fundamental, which they unquestionable are. There's a reason the politicians I mentioned above all feature on JRE, and as far as i'm aware little (or no?) Republican candidates as of yet. That's because they lack those fundamentals aforementioned. They are quite literally not worth the conversation.
 
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dmgtz96

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@jetflag There's a certain irrelevance to your 'we beat them, and he's better than him' kind of comparisons you keep making. People like Trump 'win' because of campaign tactics, rhetoric and the nature of idealogical tribalism, not because of capabilities or qualities. How much substance a candidate has unfortunately seems to be less pivotal than how much style they have, and all victories operate within that vector. Over-analysing the nuances of the trash in order to postulate ' look how bad the dems are' is a pointless exercise to me, it tells us nothing.

Yes, notice how he's getting hung up on "how bad do you have to be to almost lose to Trump?" He didn't reply to my comment, nor is he considering that Trump's almost win also says a lot about the population of the US itself.
The half believing in Dems and the half believing in Republicans live in entirely different realities. The Dems' biggest mistake was in not attacking Trump enough and holding back when he got Covid. Trump always plays dirty, but the Dems have this weird obsession of taking the high moral ground. Fortunately, the younger, more progressive "socialist" candidates like AOC are not afraid of clapping back whenever Republican liars spew BS out of their mouth (or fingers).
I'd like to see his response to:
Yeah, there's that, but you also have to consider the extreme polarization in the US. A Trump supporter is not suddenly going to vote for Biden. This election was largely urban vs. rural, with urban voters going for Biden and rural voters going for Trump. The election propaganda by Fox News and co. was very effective at locking in those rural voters. Trump won in Florida thanks to how his campaign depicted Biden: as a socialist (which is untrue, but they can claim whatever they want). That drew Cuban-American and Venezuelan-American voters towards the Republican party.
Heck, some Trump supporters are so loyal to him that they'll vote Republican no matter what happens. I remember seeing some tweets on r/LeopardsAteMyFace from Trump supporters saying they've voted for him but want him to pass a 2nd stimulus check as they already lost their job and are going hungry. That's mind-blowing.
 

dmgtz96

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This is not a debate just on ideology. I want decent, intellectual individuals, who have a moral compass, consistency in principles, actual ideas, not narcissistic, not extreme egotists, not pathological liars, and who do not rely on hitting the lowest common denomination of emotive divisiveness and fear based rhetoric. An insane obsession with ideology and on which side the individual falls has completely unhinged us from demanding those type of requirements as fundamental, which they unquestionable are. There's a reason the politicians I mentioned above all feature on JRE, and as far as i'm aware little (or no?) Republican candidates as of yet. That's because they lack those fundamentals aforementioned. They are quite literally not worth the conversation.
That's the problem, because Trump supporters and the rest of the conservatives/Republicans don't think like that. They don't care about Trump's personal character and the shady actions he pulls off.
There was an excellent post on r/Conservative where one member explained the thought process behind supporting Trump. Imagine you are a poor kid in New York City. There is a group of wealthy, elite private school kids that bullies you for the way you think, for your religious beliefs, for being poor and uneducated. Suddenly, here comes a new guy who is willing to stand up to those private school kids. Sure, you don't fully agree with his methods, and you might never be friends with him, but he stands up for you against them and is willing to take all the hits. Ultimately, you don't mind the flaws in his personal character as long as he gets the job done. That's how rural Conservatives see the Democrats and Trump. They didn't elect him for his personality or likability. They're electing him to "hire" him, so he can stand up for them. Judging from what @jetflag and conservative sources have written, it seems that his support base is satisfied with what he has done over the last few years, even though from a left-leaning pov we've thought him less than satisfactory.
 
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jetflag

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There's a certain irrelevance to your 'we beat them, and he's better than him' kind of comparisons you keep making.
we’re in a discussion thread about us candidates/ policy yet you find it irrelevant that comparisons are being made? Right after you ask me if there are republican candidates that I find electable?

Don’t ask the question if you can’t stand the answer, Hensmon.

People like Biden 'win' because of campaign tactics, rhetoric and the nature of idealogical tribalism, not because of capabilities or qualities. How much substance a candidate has unfortunately seems to be less pivotal than how much style they have, and all victories operate within that vector. Over-analysing the nuances of the trash in order to postulate ' look how bad the Reps are' is a pointless exercise to me, it tells us nothing.

I fixed that for you to point out that you’re projecting with frankly, useless rhetoric,its flilps both sides, you’re not making a point here, you’re just showing colours.

I find the memes equally eye-rolling and tribalistic if i'm honest, if even posted half-seriously.

well sorry you didn’t find my memes funny m8, I though they where, and painfully on point. but perhaps that’s because its you, not me who’s the actual political (left) tribalist you constantly accuse me of being here. I had a great laugh at Katadunkas’s Trump memes.

The bomb one is a good example of the pointless sparing between the two sides via each others garbage. Yes, the Dems and The Repubs both bomb, a deplorable action and both containing hypocrisy (although your meme only demonstrates that on the Dem side here).

the title of the meme when I downloaded it was “same shit, different party” but yes, you're right. the democrats are especially good at highlighting how much they’re on board with the future utopia and social justice whilst at the same time doing exactly the same thing the reps are doing.

Why on earth is the debate never about who is NOT going to be bombing, I wonder??? .

1 The debate is, 2 Because NO ONE is NOT going to be bombing (or starving people) Hensmon. And please don’t kill me with laugher if you are infact referring to your preferred isle of the ideological spectrum when you think of potential leaders who allegedly won’ reside. It has a couple of particularly nasty genocides attributed to it.

My point is that the focus should be entirely on the good ideas and the great leadership candidates. There is no question that at least in UK and U.S politics within the last 10+ years that they are currently all coming from the Left.

And I couldn’t disagree more on the latter part. the left, aside from doing nothing but identity politics nowadays, are openly aspousing things like:

state redistribution of wealth based on race or class,
open borders,
government distributed "universal" healthcare
more draconian government control over the demos
absurd taxes (not just for the rich)
blasphemy / hate speech laws for the individual and press.

to name a few,

there’s a very good reason why they lost the working class throughout the world, why they keep eating their on in order to get to the top of the virtue hierarchy and why they can’t seem to win ANY elections. And, please. Don’t give me the blame Populism! for that, Populism is as much left wing (BLM, Leninism 1930’s, occupy wallstreet etc.) as it is right (generation identitaire, bolsenaro, MAGA etc.) it literally means, "for the people, against the elites".

Doesn't mean i'm always on board with the right though. I'm divided but still pro-choice, think agw is real and i'm an ietists qua religion.

But where the left seems to keep regressing towards forms of neo marxism, the right is "conservativly" classical liberal/ individualist. So for now i'm in their camp, Till the left gets its act together.


Both Left and Right institutions are at bursting point with war-mongering, corrupt and outrageously stupid politicians and we can spend all day cherry picking the anecdotes of each to form our arguments, but in the rare occasion I (* fixed that for you, You don’t get to speak for me nor for the rest society) come across politicians with worthy levels of political integrity they are currently residing on the Left. Again that is the likes of Sanders, Corbyn, Gabbard, Yang...

"worthy levels of political intengrity" doesn't mean "ideas I like and people who have consistently kept them" It just means a candidate has stuck to his principles. which some reps do to the point of new earth creationism.

And the reason“politically integral “oldschool socialist candidates like “tax the milionairs oh shit I am one, I mean billionairs” Sanders, and “our friends in hamas and Hezbollah” Corbyn aren’t getting elected is because their ideas are not credible, they are terrible, they have been discredited/ tested and failed enmasse, and they don't work. Regardless of how “decent, principle and intellectual” their personas might be.

Yang is a bit of a oddball, I can’t figure out whether he’s actually left or right, his plans seems left leaning, suffering from a lot of the same flaws that national socialist policies suffer from, but his political compass reads him as firm authoritarian (lean) right which would explain why he was endorsed by the likes of Richard spencer, which he fortunately denounced. So, Dunno maybe his is maybe he isn't.

We agree on Gabbard, She out of all seems to be the candidate I would most likely support, though I would classify her far more as a centrist then a leftist on many issues. she’s against TTP/globalist neoliberalism, pro lowering income tax, anti-trimester abortion, like trump against wastefull foreign wars (who’s impeachment she didn’t support), pro sovereignty/borders but disagrees on the problem/solution. To name a few. Wouldn’t mind seeing her in 2024.

do not believe these traits are exclusive to left-wing individuals, just that the Right wing has failed to deliver a single offering with integrity since before I was born.

Like I said, Integrity is not just “policies I agree with” .I again refer you to Carson or Cruz, who’s principles are as integer as when they first entered the political domain. You just disagree with them.

This is not a debate just on ideology. I want decent, intellectual individuals, who have a moral compass, consistency in principles, actual ideas, not narcissistic, not extreme egotists, not pathological liars, and who do not rely on hitting the lowest common denomination of emotive divisiveness and fear based rhetoric.

I think I went through pretty much the entire election program of both candidas above so i don't see how i've "just" been focussing on ideology, and I find it honestly amazing that the people who continue to bemoan the US’s populist “vote for the man, not the policies/ideology” are the same who come up with wishlists like that mostly focussing on the hominem/ character traits and continue not to realize that.

further more:

- a technocratic intellectual isn’t the same thing as a leader, I'm firmly with Heinlein on this.
- Morals and a moral compass are largely determined by one's ideology, sorry thats just a fact.
- Name me 1 politician, who, when in office didn’t compromise principles for the sake of getting things done,
- Your preferred candidates “actual” ideas demonstrably don’t work/ turn out worse for society by track record.
- And as for narcicism, egotism and pathological liars/deniers, Trump certainly doesn’t have a monopoly on that doesn’t he? I would argue any postwall socialist/ communist is one and me and my loved one’s are certainly happy they get elected out rather then in power in the west. I honestly don't get why people still thing these ideas are a credible working option for a human society. how many times would like to see them fail precisely?

An insane obsession with ideology and on which side the individual falls has completely unhinged us from demanding those type of requirements as fundamental, which they unquestionable are.

yeah Don’t worry about the ideology/ direction a person is taking your country, as long as the politician speaks nice, is charismatic, an intellectual, sticks firmly to his principles and has actual ideas on how to form society it doesn’t matter if his name is Fidel Castro.

sorry not sorry but this is such a fundamentally nonsensical position to take that t I’m not even going to rebut it properly. Please. do live your fantasy.

There's a reason the politicians I mentioned above all feature on JRE, and as far as i'm aware little (or no?) Republican candidates as of yet. That's because they lack those fundamentals aforementioned. They are quite literally not worth the conversation.

Ok, well I don’t think using an entertainment podcast hosts program as your metric for decency concerning political candidates is a very good one m8, especially considering Joe roagan openly voted Trump this election, and tried to have both him and Biden on.
 
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jetflag

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Yes, notice how he's getting hung up on "how bad do you have to be to almost lose to Trump?" He didn't reply to my comment, nor is he considering that Trump's almost win also says a lot about the population of the US itself.
The half believing in Dems and the half believing in Republicans live in entirely different realities. The Dems' biggest mistake was in not attacking Trump enough and holding back when he got Covid. Trump always plays dirty, but the Dems have this weird obsession of taking the high moral ground. Fortunately, the younger, more progressive "socialist" candidates like AOC are not afraid of clapping back whenever Republican liars spew BS out of their mouth (or fingers).
I'd like to see his response to:


Christ on a bike man, speaking of decency. I honestly missed it, sorry. Have I become such “evil political enumy” to you that you can’t even refer to me in the first person or be a smidged charitable anymore?

fuck.

Yeah, there's that, but you also have to consider the extreme polarization in the US. A Trump supporter is not suddenly going to vote for Biden. This election was largely urban vs. rural, with urban voters going for Biden and rural voters going for Trump. The election propaganda by Fox News and co. was very effective at locking in those rural voters. Trump won in Florida thanks to how his campaign depicted Biden: as a socialist (which is untrue, but they can claim whatever they want). That drew Cuban-American and Venezuelan-American voters towards the Republican party.
Heck, some Trump supporters are so loyal to him that they'll vote Republican no matter what happens. I remember seeing some tweets on r/LeopardsAteMyFace from Trump supporters saying they've voted for him but want him to pass a 2nd stimulus check as they already lost their job and are going hungry. That's mind-blowing.

Yes. any democratic election win, loss or tie sais something about the demos. Rural US is mostly voting red and Urban us is mostly voting blue, like I said, 50 vote blue, 50 vote red, and it has been that way since post wo2, The election propaganda by CNN, NYT, WSJ etc. where also great in locking those Urban voters and depicting trump as a facist dictator which is untrue but they can claim whatever they want, States like california would have never turned red and wyoming never blue. Some blues would have voted for satan over trump and for some Trump will remain their red president, since they have 0 confidence biden will actually do anything more then talk lovely.

You said nothing I disagree with or take issue with so why are you so hell bend I replied to this is a bit beyond me. but there you go.

again, yes, I agree, it sais something about the Demos. especially the parts who's livelyhood is going to be destroyed by a covid lockdown over those with laptop jobs @ home in san fransisco.
 
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dmgtz96

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Oh, please, the Democratic and Republican parties are not the same. Stop feeding off conservative sources.
I'm not familiar with Republican candidates from the last 20 years, but I thought Mitt Romney was much more presidential than Trump. He seems smart and articulate, plus he's one of the few willing to call out Trump and even attended a few BLM protests. I don't know his policies in depth, but he's someone I wouldn't mind having as president in the US.
 

jetflag

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That's the problem, because Trump supporters and the rest of the conservatives/Republicans don't think like that. They don't care about Trump's personal character and the shady actions he pulls off.
There was an excellent post on r/Conservative where one member explained the thought process behind supporting Trump. Imagine you are a poor kid in New York City. There is a group of wealthy, elite private school kids that bullies you for the way you think, for your religious beliefs, for being poor and uneducated. Suddenly, here comes a new guy who is willing to stand up to those private school kids. Sure, you don't fully agree with his methods, and you might never be friends with him, but he stands up for you against them and is willing to take all the hits. Ultimately, you don't mind the flaws in his personal character as long as he gets the job done. That's how rural Conservatives see the Democrats and Trump. They didn't elect him for his personality or likability. They're electing him to "hire" him, so he can stand up for them. Judging from what @jetflag and conservative sources have written, it seems that his support base is satisfied with what he has done over the last few years, even though from a left-leaning pov we've thought him less than satisfactory.


yup. 100% agreed. So unless Biden

- pulls his tax plan to save the planet, which will affect the "poor kids"
- beats Covid in record time for them to save their business based on said tax cuts,
- invests the rest of what trump wasn't able to put into rural infrastucture.
- compromises or at the very least acknowledges "traditional" us family values there.
- keeps the borders close so the immigrant "wunt take buh juuuuubs!"

these states won't vote blue again, aforementioned taxes/policies will push a large portion of the swing voters back into the red camp (and they'll probably take some with them) and Trump can, if he will, score a 2024 victory and become the first president to have been voted in twice seperatly.
 

jetflag

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Oh, please, the Democratic and Republican parties are not the same. Stop feeding off conservative sources.

you're right. The democrats are far worse. They're in one part of their divided camp champange socialists, and on the other virtue signalling neo liberal globalists, who don't give a flying f about the little man. Biden's crimebill that shredded the black community all over the country as prime example.

and you don't get to dictate to me what sources I can and cannot read, and seen as you're not familiar with any conservative voices other then "a-country-and-a-company-are-the-same-mitt romney" might I suggest actually stepping out of the echo chamber and actually reading some? i read a host of sources from noam chomsky/ dillahunty to shapiro/owens/rand. And which is also, partly, why I (still) engage with people who think differently from me.

I'm not familiar with Republican candidates from the last 20 years, but I thought Mitt Romney was much more presidential than Trump. He seems smart and articulate, plus he's one of the few willing to call out Trump and even attended a few BLM protests. I don't know his policies in depth, but he's someone I wouldn't mind having as president in the US.

Edit: from romney's election program: "My top priority for our nation’s foreign policy is to ensure the safety and security of the American people. With ever-increasing challenges to our national security and interests, it is imperative that the United States promote peace through strength as the leader of the free world"

who would you rather have? someone who builds a wall? or someone who shows up guns blazing?

might i humbly also suggest checking his policies first before you decide to have him over his "articulate" personality? if not then you're not that much different from the type of trump supporter who votes for him "because he likes Trumps style"
 
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