Thoughts on USA this year?

Jetflag

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It's serious.
Then i'm genuinly curious how on earth you got from:

- a 200 year old functioning classical liberal constitutional republic/democratic system
- which is non-dictatorial and where where "the fuhrer" has limited powers
- has a minority in key government institutes
- that doesn't forcibly supresses its opposition by menofrego íng it,
- allows free press (ad nauseum i might add)
- allows (legal (!) immigration and emigration from other countries, including majority muslim ones, based on citizenship instead of race or religion
- wants to reduce regimentation of society and prefers a free market economy as opposed to a state sanctioned one.
- has individual rights instead of group rights within its borders based on citizenship, instead of race or religion

too:

"thats definitly facism!"

do you even facism bro?



tenor.gif





But in all candor, I think you and I have a different understanding or definition of what facism actually is or entails :) . So banter aside and in an attempt to steelman:

How do you define Facism? and at what point does it tip the scale for you?
 
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dmgtz96

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... and at what point does it tip the scale for you?
When he told the Proud Boys to "Stand Back and Stand By."
When he cheered at his supporters who surrounded a Biden bus in Texas and claimed they did nothing wrong.
When he falsely claimed himself winner.

Those were the things that tipped me over from "okay, he's a big asshole and a troll" to "yeah, this guy is DEFINITELY something else." This is how fascism starts, and denying it (Poe's Law, Godwin's Law) is only going to let fascism develop.

late night edit (because why not?)
Umberto Eco's 14 common features of fascism are eerily similar to Trump's regime.

  1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
  2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
  3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
  4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
  5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
  6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
  7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
  8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
  9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
  10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
  11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
  12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
  13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
  14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
That should be required reading for students in democracies all around the world.
 
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Jetflag

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my 2 cents on your tipping points:



1 I disagree that calling upon your supporters to stand back but be ready for assaults from the opposition (blackshirts coïncidently) is facism m8. if anything its the opposite. its a call to abide by law, including self defense. (nor is it part of the list you provided)

2 well, that would make the biden/democrats facists for openly ignoring and cheering violent revolutionairies (see point 6 on your own list) wouldn’t it? Yet you don't hold them to the same standard. Why?

3 yes, Trump blurts out stupid things which he later has to retract, that doesn't make him a Nazi, it makes him an idiot. As opposed to Pinochet, hitler or Mussolini, who where quite eloquent/political in their speech.



Now, Concerning Eco, Why you would pick a medievalist’s essay, for how to culturally detect fascism, as the to-go list (as opposed to say: gentile’s, who focusses on the operation of the political system, which is what we’re talking about, or any other of the 20 philosophers/scolars)is a riddle to me. Some of his definitions are so broad they pretty much apply to any ideology, religion or political party, and seen as (according to himself) only 1 is needed as a red flag quote: ""it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it""

ok eco, so Tibetan Buddism is potential facism, for tagging box one. because they're "a cult of tradition"

Right. i don't know how about you but i find that accenine. then again maybe it explains why everything is considered facism these days, as mentioned in my earlier responds to Hensmon.

Still, lets to through it and see :



1 cult of tradition: What Eco refers to here is the new facist mysticism under Goebbels. so basically wicca with a swastika. This doesn't apply to trump who's a moderate (hedonist) Christian (democrat for most of his life) and for all intends and purposes a classical liberalist. Though this point probably explains why so many people (falsely) attribute conservatism to be facist (which is isn't) since it was this particular type of conservatism (classical liberal values) that defeated the nazi's (and the commies, consequently)



2 rejection of modernism and enlightenment values. Trump doesn't do that, Trumps office rejects post-modernist values in where everything is fluid and subjective (except for that statement, somehow), and wishes to return to original enlightenment/ aristotelean values on which the usa was build. wherein the individual is central, not the state, nor the group and/or its rights.



3 action for action sake: I would argue both sides utilize this strategy, (block the reps regardless) and, like cult of tradition, is a far to common phenomenon to attribute to facism. basically eco turns john locke and other body over mind enlightenment philosophers into facist with this. Accinine point, and not mutually exclusive to trump in this context, though I would classify him as reactionairy.



4 disagreement is treason "Against critical race theory? you're a racists biggot! #cancelled" see point 3. in fact I would argue that the other side is a whole lot better at eating itself and expelling its own for wrong think. so thats a shared tag box afiac.



5 Fear of difference: I don't see how this applies, Trump isn't fearfull of the "outsider" which is why the trade deal with china was signed, 99% blue wave never came, and though Biden might still win by a small margin, and you have groups like lgbtqi for trump, blacks for trump etc. being against human trafficing and illegal immigration isn't xenophobia, nor is being a patriot in favor of functioning borders.



6 appeal to social frustration. see point 3, (notable examples #metoo, BLM etc. )



7 The obsession with a plot. first: see again point 3 (notable examples: Russia gate, Trumps global corporations/ tax returns, etc.) but yes, Trump is in favor of his own country over globalism. so while I agree you can tick that box for him, I disagree with Eco that favoring the nation state under classical liberal principles is a red flag for fascism.



8 The enemy is to strong an too weak. see again point 3 "trump is a massive idiot and a failure but simultaneously a competent dictator who's going to destroy america!"



9 pacifism is trafficing with the enemy, How does this apply to a president who, unlike his predecessors didn't start another pointless militairy conflict in the middle east and instead signed trade deals and brokered peace between Isreal and among which, UAE. something unthinkable 4 years ago, nor tries to forcibly increase "lebelsraum" Also, his position on "not casting a vote" is neutral, vote if you like.



10 contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.” Trump isn’t an elitist, he’s the polar opposite, a populist. And speaking of elitism, “basket of deplorables” rings a bell. I don’t think see point 3 applies here, instead I’m going to give this a firm box for the democrats, especially concerning elitism.



11 everybody is educated to become a hero, Under trumps regime, there's freedom, low taxes producing winners and losers. Not everyone gets to be a hero, nor is this a cult of death. not applicable, also again I think the progressive movement of handing out trofees to children just for participating is something he´s not onboard with, but seen as he didn´t stop or promote that politically we´ll leave that in the middle for now.

12 Machismo and weaponry. America’s gun /macho culture is something that faaar preceeds trumps administration, nor does he have a disdain for women (in fact he seems to love them a bit too much), he just appointed a (relatively young) female supreme judge and as far as homosexuality, I again reference Gays for Trump movement. (which coïncidently are being ousted as heretics or "race traitors" by the "cult" they used to be a part of see: point 4)

13 Selective populism: see point 3, “we’re favour of the poor black community but not the poor hillbillies in the rust belt” and vice versa. So far the dems have ticked a lot more then 1 alongside with Trump, which is again why I don’t find this list credible. It makes them as much facist as trump allegedly is depending on a subjective angle. Its way to broad and multi interpredable and so I don’t think this should be cursory reading for students, at least not without context from the aforementionted other 20.

and finally:

14 Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak: the overwhealming majority of news papers are openly against trump, there’s free press and the curriculum under trump hasn’t been altered for schools. Not applicable.


Eco's list isn't making a good case against trump for being an alleged facist here. and if you want to go with the "well it only takes one point" rule, then congrats, you've just turned Biden into a Nazi, (and the Dalai lama along side him )

If you want to try classifying him as such, might I suggest Gentiles 10 points list and see if it still holds calling him or his government that. its also one that isn't based on just "1 tag the box you're a nazi" but a whole.
 
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Jetflag

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and for good measure, A picture sais more then a thousand (for which I again apologise) words.

120530347_10164344443960074_8193063911632713548_n.jpg
 

dmgtz96

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my 2 cents on your tipping points:



1 I disagree that calling upon your supporters to stand back but be ready for assaults from the opposition (blackshirts coïncidently) is facism m8. if anything its the opposite. its a call to abide by law, including self defense. (nor is it part of the list you provided)

2 well, that would make the biden/democrats facists for openly ignoring and cheering violent revolutionairies (see point 6 on your own list) wouldn’t it? Yet you don't hold them to the same standard. Why?

3 yes, Trump blurts out stupid things which he later has to retract, that doesn't make him a Nazi, it makes him an idiot. As opposed to Pinochet, hitler or Mussolini, who where quite eloquent/political in their speech.



Now, Concerning Eco, Why you would pick a medievalist’s essay, for how to culturally detect fascism, as the to-go list (as opposed to say: gentile’s, who focusses on the operation of the political system, which is what we’re talking about, or any other of the 20 philosophers/scolars)is a riddle to me. Some of his definitions are so broad they pretty much apply to any ideology, religion or political party, and seen as (according to himself) only 1 is needed as a red flag quote: ""it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it""

ok eco, so Tibetan Buddism is potential facism, for tagging box one. because they're "a cult of tradition"

Right. i don't know how about you but i find that accenine. then again maybe it explains why everything is considered facism these days, as mentioned in my earlier responds to Hensmon.

Still, lets to through it and see :



1 cult of tradition: What Eco refers to here is the new facist mysticism under Goebbels. so basically wicca with a swastika. This doesn't apply to trump who's a moderate (hedonist) Christian (democrat for most of his life) and for all intends and purposes a classical liberalist. Though this point probably explains why so many people (falsely) attribute conservatism to be facist (which is isn't) since it was this particular type of conservatism (classical liberal values) that defeated the nazi's (and the commies, consequently)



2 rejection of modernism and enlightenment values. Trump doesn't do that, Trumps office rejects post-modernist values in where everything is fluid and subjective (except for that statement, somehow), and wishes to return to original enlightenment/ aristotelean values on which the usa was build. wherein the individual is central, not the state, nor the group and/or its rights.



3 action for action sake: I would argue both sides utilize this strategy, (block the reps regardless) and, like cult of tradition, is a far to common phenomenon to attribute to facism. basically eco turns john locke and other body over mind enlightenment philosophers into facist with this. Accinine point, and not mutually exclusive to trump in this context, though I would classify him as reactionairy.



4 disagreement is treason "Against critical race theory? you're a racists biggot! #cancelled" see point 3. in fact I would argue that the other side is a whole lot better at eating itself and expelling its own for wrong think. so thats a shared tag box afiac.



5 Fear of difference: I don't see how this applies, Trump isn't fearfull of the "outsider" which is why the trade deal with china was signed, 99% blue wave never came, and though Biden might still win by a small margin, and you have groups like lgbtqi for trump, blacks for trump etc. being against human trafficing and illegal immigration isn't xenophobia, nor is being a patriot in favor of functioning borders.



6 appeal to social frustration. see point 3, (notable examples #metoo, BLM etc. )



7 The obsession with a plot. first: see again point 3 (notable examples: Russia gate, Trumps global corporations/ tax returns, etc.) but yes, Trump is in favor of his own country over globalism. so while I agree you can tick that box for him, I disagree with Eco that favoring the nation state under classical liberal principles is a red flag for fascism.



8 The enemy is to strong an too weak. see again point 3 "trump is a massive idiot and a failure but simultaneously a competent dictator who's going to destroy america!"



9 pacifism is trafficing with the enemy, How does this apply to a president who, unlike his predecessors didn't start another pointless militairy conflict in the middle east and instead signed trade deals and brokered peace between Isreal and among which, UAE. something unthinkable 4 years ago, nor tries to forcibly increase "lebelsraum" Also, his position on "not casting a vote" is neutral, vote if you like.



10 contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.” Trump isn’t an elitist, he’s the polar opposite, a populist. And speaking of elitism, “basket of deplorables” rings a bell. I don’t think see point 3 applies here, instead I’m going to give this a firm box for the democrats, especially concerning elitism.



11 everybody is educated to become a hero, Under trumps regime, there's freedom, low taxes producing winners and losers. Not everyone gets to be a hero, nor is this a cult of death. not applicable, also again I think the progressive movement of handing out trofees to children just for participating is something he´s not onboard with, but seen as he didn´t stop or promote that politically we´ll leave that in the middle for now.

12 Machismo and weaponry. America’s gun /macho culture is something that faaar preceeds trumps administration, nor does he have a disdain for women (in fact he seems to love them a bit too much), he just appointed a (relatively young) female supreme judge and as far as homosexuality, I again reference Gays for Trump movement. (which coïncidently are being ousted as heretics or "race traitors" by the "cult" they used to be a part of see: point 4)

13 Selective populism: see point 3, “we’re favour of the poor black community but not the poor hillbillies in the rust belt” and vice versa. So far the dems have ticked a lot more then 1 alongside with Trump, which is again why I don’t find this list credible. It makes them as much facist as trump allegedly is depending on a subjective angle. Its way to broad and multi interpredable and so I don’t think this should be cursory reading for students, at least not without context from the aforementionted other 20.

and finally:

14 Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak: the overwhealming majority of news papers are openly against trump, there’s free press and the curriculum under trump hasn’t been altered for schools. Not applicable.


Eco's list isn't making a good case against trump for being an alleged facist here. and if you want to go with the "well it only takes one point" rule, then congrats, you've just turned Biden into a Nazi, (and the Dalai lama along side him )

If you want to try classifying him as such, might I suggest Gentiles 10 points list and see if it still holds calling him or his government that. its also one that isn't based on just "1 tag the box you're a nazi" but a whole.
1. Yeah, except the Proud Boys are not just regular Trump supporters. They're a known white supremacist group. I can't believe you're trying to spin this positively.
2. You're talking about BLM? Antifa? Joe Biden has not been endorsed by either. In fact, Joe Biden denounced both of those groups. I'll give it to Trump because he eventually denounced the Proud Boys on Fox News, but that was too late. They're not the same circumstances.
3. We agree on this. I never said he was a nazi, just that he is fascist. So far, based on what he has done, he does have fascist tendencies.

I think the Eco list is the most commonly cited in anti-Trump agendas, but I'll take a look at the flaws in Eco's essay, too. Fascism in general is tough to define, and if it's too broad then as you mentioned tibetans would be considered "fascists."
 
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Jetflag

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1. Yeah, except the Proud Boys are not just regular Trump supporters. They're a known white supremacist group. I can't believe you're trying to spin this positively.
2. You're talking about BLM? Antifa? Joe Biden has not been endorsed by either. In fact, Joe Biden denounced both of those groups. I'll give it to Trump because he eventually denounced the Proud Boys on Fox News, but that was too late. They're not the same circumstances.
3. We agree on this. I never said he was a nazi, just that he is fascist. So far, based on what he has done, he does have fascist tendencies.

I think the Eco list is the most commonly cited in anti-Trump agendas, but I'll take a look at the flaws in Eco's essay, too. Fascism in general is tough to define, and if it's too broad then as you mentioned tibetans would be considered "fascists."

1 This is precisely one of those things why I don't consider the BBC credible journalism anymore but sensationalist nonsense

No, they are not and i can't believe you/ they're trying to spin it in such a way that they would be. its either incredibly lazy journalism or outright lies, take your pick

Honestly ask yourself, What sort of white supremacist group worth their salt, would be comprised of Asians, Blacks, Jews, gays (yes, gays) and Latinos and, on top would have its highest ranking leader to be of Black Latino of Mexican origin,, who denounces the white supremacy and the KKK openly on camera and on twitter? 😄 Thats like having the KKK run by Alicia Garza. If you want to give them an honest slur, they'd be sex supremacists, since they're basically a chauvenist penis-only active member group.



edit: i didn't even know this, but the group was formed in 2016 by Vice Co-Founder Gavin McInnis and they have a manifesto in where they describe themselves as “socially liberal and welcomes gay members.” Also the text reads: “We disavow Nazis and don’t want them at our meet-ups. We disavow racists and don’t want them at our meet-ups.

also, this part made me laugh: "We allow weak, beta male virgins to join because our fraternity is about helping men improve their lives and that includes all men.”

:ROFLMAO:
priceless.

2 yes he did denounce them, like trump did eventually denounce the proud boys, who he didn't even know (even though they're not even white supremacists) but we're on the other side of the coin still talking about the same Biden who dog whistled a violent marxist terror group responsible for multible burnings, beatings and even deaths as "just an idea" on National TV. At least Trump corrected himself in hindsight and did so ignorantly i might add.

3. sure, but like you said, fascism is a very specific soup requiring mutible ingredients, and yes. trump has some of those ingredients, but so do the dems or any other party of that matter. that doesn't make them or him fascist. if you only added salt and butter to the boil, you don't get to claim to have everything ready to bake a pie.
 
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dmgtz96

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1 This is precisely one of those things why I don't consider the BBC credible journalism anymore but sensationalist nonsense

No, they are not and i can't believe you/ they're trying to spin it in such a way that they would be. its either incredibly lazy journalism or outright lies, take your pick

Honestly ask yourself, What sort of white supremacist group worth their salt, would be comprised of Asians, Blacks, Jews, gays (yes, gays) and Latinos and, on top would have its highest ranking leader to be of Black Latino of Mexican origin,, who denounces the white supremacy and the KKK openly on camera and on twitter? 😄 Thats like having the KKK run by Alicia Garza. If you want to give them an honest slur, they'd be sex supremacists, since they're basically a chauvenist penis-only active member group.


edit: i didn't even know this, but the group was formed in 2016 by Vice Co-Founder Gavin McInnis and they have a manifesto in where they describe themselves as “socially liberal and welcomes gay members.” Also the text reads: “We disavow Nazis and don’t want them at our meet-ups. We disavow racists and don’t want them at our meet-ups.

also, this part made me laugh: "We allow weak, beta male virgins to join because our fraternity is about helping men improve their lives and that includes all men.”

:ROFLMAO:
priceless.

2 yes he did denounce them, like trump did eventually denounce the proud boys, who he didn't even know (even though they're not even white supremacists) but we're on the other side of the coin still talking about the same Biden who dog whistled a violent marxist terror group responsible for multible burnings, beatings and even deaths as "just an idea" on National TV. At least Trump corrected himself in hindsight and did so ignorantly i might add.

3. sure, but like you said, fascism is a very specific soup requiring mutible ingredients, and yes. trump has some of those ingredients, but so do the dems or any other party of that matter. that doesn't make them or him fascist. if you only added salt and butter to the boil, you don't get to claim to have everything ready to bake a pie.
Pretty sure Gavin McInnis fits the definition of a right-wing troll, lol. That doesn't make him as bad as liberal media wants to paint him, though.
I was not aware the Proud Boys had a ~10% minority enrollment, or that BBC and the rest of the British publications were straight up lying. Good observation.
Groups like the Proud Boys can quickly become cesspools for far/alt-right ideals, unfortunately.
 

Jetflag

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yeah we had the same problem with the gabber movement here in holland back then, Originally the phenomenon originated in the rotterdam harbor area where (mostly working class/immigrant) harbour worker-children would meet up in the weekend under a bridge or in a tunnel, and set up shop for hardcore raves.

then for some bizar reason in the near the millinium some german nazi skinheads though it was somehow "their" movement, even though the godfathers of hardcorescene are of mixed race indians, asians, surinam you name it. And the whole scene had to start apologizing and virtue signalling for something they where never about in the first place with things like "united hardcore against racism & facism stickers" as if, to any actual "member" that wasn't blatantly obvious from the getgo.


it also didn't help that dutch media then , smearcampanged the music as "racist" (because hey! thats sensation!) which is why i'm of the opinion that both are to blame for the misrepresentation.

you can't do anything about that though other then getting them to retract and redact by extended lawsuits, which, even if succesfull, happens months or weeks after the fact when the whole world has already gotten the wrong picture from the original false headline.

all the freedom, non of the responsibility and it looks like things have only gotten worse on that front 2020.

I mean what can you do as a group then? Other then denounce them publically and have tallies in place that'll kick those guys out whenever they pop up?
 
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dmgtz96

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Well, it looks like the US is going to have to say goodbye to Dorito-in-chief.

His tweeter right now is hilarious. He's going insane/senile, but his threats are empty. Like Anderson Cooper said, Trump really is "an obese turtle on his back flailing in the hot sun, realizing his time is over."

Meanwhile, one of my favorite parts of this whole thing:
 

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Archon

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My question is, what will actually change for the USA? I'm not talking about how the POTUS won't make stupid statements on TV/Twitter anymore; I wanna know what's actually gonna change here.
 
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dmgtz96

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My question is, what will actually change for the USA? I'm not talking about how the POTUS won't make stupid statements on TV/Twitter anymore; I wanna know what's actually gonna change here.
Always a good question to ask.

Biden said he would re-join the Paris climate accord within 77 days.
The next 4 years are going to be a healing period for the US. I imagine Democrats will try to expand the Supreme Court to correct the imbalance there (6 conservative/religious judges, 3 liberal judges). I think Biden will aim to have a stimulus bill passed, but that depends on negotiations between Dems and Republicans.
We can only hope the Trumps and other shady individuals that clearly did illegal acts are prosecuted for their crimes.
 

Archon

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Always a good question to ask.

Biden said he would re-join the Paris climate accord within 77 days.
The next 4 years are going to be a healing period for the US. I imagine Democrats will try to expand the Supreme Court to correct the imbalance there (6 conservative/religious judges, 3 liberal judges). I think Biden will aim to have a stimulus bill passed, but that depends on negotiations between Dems and Republicans.
We can only hope the Trumps and other shady individuals that clearly did illegal acts are prosecuted for their crimes.

I think I've read that the Reps have the Senate majority, so much so that it's gonna be a real struggle for the Dems to really pass anything for the next 2 years.
 

dmgtz96

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I think I've read that the Reps have the Senate majority, so much so that it's gonna be a real struggle for the Dems to really pass anything for the next 2 years.
Correct. If that turns out the case, then it's not really Biden's/the Dems' fault. You know Mitch McConnell and the rest of the Republican senators will actively block initiatives put forth by the Dems.
 

Julian Del Agranda

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And then they will get mad at Biden for not getting anything done. Just like Obama who had a similar situation. Such a tiring country...
 
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Jetflag

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Always good to see my realpolitik sense is on point,

I won my bet, :cool: .

though i might have to end up paying it back should Trump be succesfull in finding voter fraud, which in the high courts could still give him the win. for now i'm going to spend it though, might aswell for the upcomming crisis. :rolleyes:
 
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dmgtz96

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Always good to see my realpolitik sense is on point,

I won my bet, :cool: .

though i might have to end up paying it back should Trump be succesfull in finding voter fraud, which in the high courts could still give him the win. for now i'm going to spend it though, might aswell for the upcomming crisis. :rolleyes:
Dude, even Fox News asked Trump for evidence about the supposed voter fraud. I think it's hiiiiighly unlikely. Trump cried the same in the 2018 midterm elections, and pretty much nothing happened.
If it does happen, though, I see no problem with a recount. That's democracy.

And then they will get mad at Biden for not getting anything done. Just like Obama who had a similar situation. Such a tiring country...
For real, it's like part of the Republican playbook. Fortunately, the younger generations are not willing to tolerate that kind of bs anymore.
 

dmgtz96

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Haha, my favorite one is the Zootopia sloth meme:


nevada.JPG


After Biden passed Trump in Pennsylvania and Georgia, though, there's much less pressure on Nevada. They can take as much time as they'd like.
 

Jetflag

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Dude, even Fox News asked Trump for evidence about the supposed voter fraud. I think it's hiiiiighly unlikely. Trump cried the same in the 2018 midterm elections, and pretty much nothing happened.
If it does happen, though, I see no problem with a recount. That's democracy.
Which is why i said i'm going to spend it though, might aswell for the upcoming crisis :)
 
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