Thoughts on USA this year?

[PegaSus]

Yeah well, 2020-USA in a nutshell

A gender-reveal stunt sparked a California wildfire that has forced 21,000 people to evacuate

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/08/california-gender-reveal-fire/

 

[Jetflag]

Failure to contain Covid-19, both by the president (extremely bad leadership) and relevant health authorities (ex. Center for Disease Control going back and forth about people wearing masks).

yes, The US failed to contain covid-19, just like China, italy, the UK etc. But I disagree on both why it failed.

A; "extremely bad leadership" no, Trumps actions all fall within the restrictive bounds of the function of his office, which he (unless you want him to be a dictator like Xi) shouldn't exceed the constutional dictate placed on them, The only things one can fairly blame him for (IMO) are.

1 Making ill informed decisions based on muddy information released by China and consequently the WHO, in his case an incomplete shutting of the borders and initial praise of China which he later retracted (which can be said for virtually any western country, including mine), The alternative would be to wait, which would be equally if not more undesirable.

2. Being restricted by the function(s) of his office. The US isn't the type of place where a president can just "order" a lockdown for a state or city. Its a federal republic with a clear distinction of powers and responsibilities between a.w. the Senators (policing, heathcare etc.) and the White house. (US borders, militairy etc.) ergo, poor hospital or quanantine conditions in say, new york are just not his fault, nor his responsibility.

So put short, based on what he (and we) then knew, he did what he could and was allowed to do by the constitution to which he is bound, which was partially shut the borders. Thats not extremely bad leadership, Thats being dealt a shit hand and consequently doing what you can (and may).

B; as for the CDC and the back and forth on masks, same thing. not their exact fault is it? They're just reflecting the incoming data by frame, largely due to unclear WHO information who had to put out multible tweets explaining how and what with a large timespan in between. (of all mediums the most poor one, due to its restriction on caracters)

Widespread protests against police-on-black brutality. Most are peaceful, but some escalate to riots. And yeah, police-on-black brutality is real and rooted in serious systemic racism.
National Basketball Association (NBA) players strike within the past 24 hours. Normally I don't care for sports, but I think it's good to see the players taking a stance against the deep-rooted issues in the US from law enforcement/state authorities.

I recommend you have a listen to this, Sam as an intellectual is someone i deeply respect for his factual analysis and neutral observation (even though he is an open anti-Trumpers) He provides a fair and factual breakdown as to why that simply isn't the case as you write it there, and why the whole BLM movement is a ploy/ selective outrage with a very clear political agenda. (and quite a transparantly hypocritical one at that)

Hurricane Laura about to hit Lousiana. It's still category 4 (lower than Katrina, which was 5), but it will still cause plenty of damage...

yup. look pretty serious, but I wouldn't classify it as "craaaazy stuff" , this happens pretty much every year round the hurricane season. why would you think this is anything special?

Presidential elections happening soon (early November), and in the past couple of months the governing party has done everything it could to dismantle the US Postal Service (so people don't vote by mail)

And there's a very good reason for that,

if you are in any way concerned about possible voter ID fraud, duplicate voting, or "russia interverence" (something the opposition has been screaming about for years) the last thing you want is a filter and distribution system like the US postal service to be an elections main HUB.
which is, to say the least of it, Ill equipped to handle voter ID, voter duplication and other forms of voter fraud.

Craaaaaazy stuff happening right now, and I can only assume things will get crazier in the next two months with the approaching elections.
What do people outside the US think about all this? Ex. those in Europe?

I think the sensationalism after 2016 hasn't died out in the slightests, partially thanks to Trumps inflamable tweeting. That being said this isn't anything all that new to the US.

The "Demos camp division" , its pretty much the same as it was in the time of Nixon,
Massive riots after a black person was shot or arrested by the cops happening in 1992 and before aswell (and argubably much more severe). As for hurricanes, Though the chance of them being more severe is increasing thanks to AGW, hurricanes are like I said an annual thing, just like tornadoes Kansas,
and the Dems can't stand it when the Reps are in office and vice versa, and will do almost anything...anything.. to drive the other party out. (Though i have to give it to the Dems, they sure ripped of their mask and went full in these years. )

The main difference IMO is how its covered/brought. in the 90's news was filtered and journalism wasn't activism. in 2020, Social media and invidual content creators have become a very real and main threat to "the established media" if i can call it that, resulting into far more desperate means of staying relevant or even afloat as companies. More outrage, more clickbait and faaar more partisan positions e.a. Activism, rather then journalism. Seen as most of those media platforms are democrat(s) leaning, Trump is painted on one side as the saviour by Fox and the Wire, and as the litteral incarnation of Satan, to which all bad that is going on in the US could and should be blamed by CNN NBCSC etc., instead of a far more objective view namely that of a national oriented anomaly-president, pushing classical liberalist policies and typing occasional dumb stuff on twitter as a hobby, (which is where most of the outrage seems to be instead of what he is actually doing or not doing.)

That incombo with mass online media going around the world in seconds and you have a beautifull medium for spreading false panic, whereas if you take a step back and look at the naked data, you'll see things have a actually steadily been getting better.

As for the coming elections: I hope Trump wins, but my money is on Biden.

 

[Hensmon]

As for the coming elections: I hope Trump wins, but my money is on Biden.

How come? Is it not fair to say that the man is one of the stupidest, divisive, under-qualified and hugely flawed characters ever seen in office? I'm no fan on Biden, but how could he possibly be worse?

 

[Jetflag]

How come? Is it not fair to say that the man is one of the stupidest, divisive, under-qualified and hugely flawed characters ever seen in office? I'm no fan on Biden, but how could he possibly be worse?

and thats what i meant the medias caracter paint job of him, which is what you're focussing on.



That little joke aside , How come what? that my money is on biden or why I prefer Trump over him?

The short answer to the latter would be (ideological) political/ politics over character.

I agree that Trump is a baffoon and an asshole at times, But i would rather have an asshole buffoon with the right aims (according to me) then a Senile with the wrong ones.

 

[Jetflag]

I'm happy to break down the politics further if you like, but I do suggest we stick to a couple otherwise this is going to be a very large thread


2020 election program on relevant issues (for me)


Reopening business and Schools, Biden No, Trump yes. Split, but slightly siding with Trump.

National guard to quell violent ongoing riots, Biden no, Trump yes. I’m with trump on this one

China should be considered a threat, Biden no, Trump yes, I'm with trump on this one.

Increase Gun Control, Biden Yes, Trump no, Slightly with Biden on this one, though the 2e amendment in principle should remain sacrosanct.


Redirect police funding, Biden yes, Trump No, I’m with Trump on this one.

Parental control in education: Biden No, Trump yes. I’m with Trump on this one.

(photo) ID required to vote Biden No, Trump yes, I’m with Trump on this one.

Release Criminals without Bail Biden yes, Trump no, Split.

Increase personal Taxes (4 trillion in total), Biden yes, Trump no, I’m with Trump on this one.

Save Coal and Gas Trump no, Biden yes, I’m with Biden on this one.

Finish the wall/secure borders Trump yes, Biden no. Split, but slightly siding with Trump.

Build up Militairy, Trump yes, Biden no. I’m with Biden on this one.

Late term abortions, Trump no, Biden yes, I’m with trump on this one.



Pick a few you disagree with me and i'll ellaborate why i'm for or against.

 

[BladeRunner_]

 

[brandonl]

6 Ways the Trump Administration Failed to Protect Americans from the Coronavirus Pandemic

For months, Republican lawmakers and conservative leaders have tried to paint President Trump as an strong leader who heroically took “decisive action to save lives” from the coronavirus. They touted his ability to contain the virus, expedite testing, and protect Americans.

In reality, the U.S. now has one of the worst ongoing epidemics in the world, among the developed countries, due to President Trump’s mismanagement of the virus.

The U.S. is approaching 6 million cases and nearly 180,000 Americans have died from COVID-19. The U.S. has almost 25 percent of the globe’s confirmed infections, despite having just 4.2 percent of the global population.

A new book by acclaimed journalist Bob Woodward has revealed that Trump knew and acknowledged the dangers the coronavirus since early February. In an audio clip between Woodward and Trump from March, Trump admitted to purposefully downplaying the severity of the virus: “I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don’t want to create a panic.”

Despite knowing the dangers of the virus, Trump has continued to spread false claims and misinformation about COVID-19. Here’s a look at the ways he has failed to protect the U.S. from the deadly effects of a worsening pandemic.

1. Cutting Resources To Critical Health Organizations
In February, just after the World Health Organization (WHO) declared the coronavirus outbreak a global public health emergency, President Trump introduced his fiscal year 2021 budget proposal that would cut funding from the CDC by 16%.

In March, Trump told governors to order their own ventilators, respirators, and supplies, saying the federal government is “not a shipping clerk.” After states fought in in a bidding war for critical equipment, the federal government finally relinquished some protective gear to high-priority areas.

As the pandemic continued, Trump has repeatedly called for further cuts to the CDC and National Institutes of Health (NIH). He also announced his plans to freeze funding to the WHO. The CDC, NIH, and WHO have all been on the front-lines of fighting a global pandemic which has severely overwhelming health systems around the world.

Furthermore, the Trump administration has tried to block billions of dollars for states to conduct testing and contact tracing in Congressional coronavirus relief bills which still have not been passed.

2. Misinformation about Treatments and Vaccines
Trump has no scientific knowledge or background and he continues to spew dangerous misinformation about COVID-19 treatments and vaccines. He has promoted ineffective and dangerous treatments including the unsupported use of hydroxychloroquine.

He has even advocated for injecting bleach, stating, “I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning? … It would be interesting to check that.”

While some COVID-19 treatments are showing some promise in helping COVID-19 patients, hydroxychloroquine and bleach are not scientifically-supported treatments.

In terms of a vaccine for COVID-19, the Trump administration has mislead Americans regarding the timeline of a potential cure.

Vice President Mike Pence addressed vaccine research in his RNC speech, claiming, “We’re on track to have the world’s first safe, effective coronavirus vaccine by the end of this year.”

Trump repeated this false promise in his RNC speech saying “we are delivering lifesaving therapies, and will produce a vaccine before the end of the year, or maybe even sooner! We will defeat the virus, end the pandemic, and emerge stronger than ever before.”

While scientists are eagerly working on vaccines, there is no guarantee one will be available by the end of this year. Even if it’s approved by December, it will take several more months until it’s widely accessible.

Dr. Walter Orenstein, a professor at Emory University and the associate director of the Emory Vaccine Center, said the likelihood of a COVID-19 vaccine coming even within the next 12 months would be “miracle.”

3. Failure to Take Responsibility
Trump has repeatedly downplayed the virus since its inception calling COVID-19 a “temporary” and “totally harmless” hoax. He takes no “responsibility” for the lack of testing despite trying to block funding for testing. He even told his people to “slow the testing down please” as a way to lessen the number of reported cases.

And as one thousand Americans die each day from COVID-19, Trump has dismissed the immense loss of life saying “it is what it is.”

“It’s very harmful to have a lack of clear communication and to underplay this virus,” said Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute. “Ultimately, a large part of how well we control the virus is going to depend on people’s behavior and to the extent that you have leaders who are trusted by large segments of our population saying it’s not a big deal… it does two things: it says there isn’t an outbreak out there or not much of one, and second is even if you got infected it’d be no big deal at all. We know both of those are not true.”

Despite denying responsibility, Trump and his administration were actually repeatedly warned about the impact that COVID-19 would have on American lives and the economy in January when the first case of the virus reached the U.S. The Woodward book confirms Trump’s prior knowledge of the virus.

The Obama administration even left a pandemic playbook to help the next administration in case there was a global outbreak of a deadly virus. Instead, Trump and his administration failed to heed advice from the playbook and ignored earlier calls for action, letting the virus viciously spread and take hundreds of thousands of lives.

 

[brandonl]

4. Xenophobic Blame Game
Instead of recognizing the scientific advice and multiple warnings from experts, Trump has spent time blaming China, racial justice protestors, and Mexico for the rising cases in the U.S.

Trump has repeatedly blamed China for causing the pandemic and spreading it throughout the U.S. Trump froze funding for the WHO because he thought the agency was prioritizing and over-relying on China.

Since March, Trump has continued using anti-Asian rhetoric to describe COVID-19, using racialized names like the “Chinese virus” and “kung flu.”

The consequences of Trump’s racist terminology are already apparent. A growing number of Asian-Americans have reported incidents of racial slurs and physical abuse as the President himself promulgated the false notion that COVID-19 is a “Chinese virus” and encouraged unfounded anger towards Asian-Americans.

In a press briefing, Trump also blamed recent Black Lives Matter protests for COVID-19 outbreaks saying, “Cases started to rise among young Americans shortly after demonstrations — which you know very well about — which presumably triggered a broader relaxation of mitigation efforts nationwide.” There is no evidence supporting his claim.

A working paper released last month by the National Bureau of Economic Research found “no evidence that urban protests reignited COVID-19 case growth during the more than three weeks following protest onset.”

Additionally, the states where cases surged after protests were the states that had relatively small protests.

Finally, Trump has also blamed Mexico for increased coronavirus cases in the U.S. as a justification for limiting immigration.

“The Trump administration has rolled out one border ban after another — most recently on children and asylum seekers — using COVID-19 as an excuse, while failing abysmally to get the virus under control in the United States,” said Omar Jadwat, director of the ACLU’s Immigrants’ Rights Project, in a statement to CNN.

COVID-19 cases are surging and the death toll is rising not because of China, racial justice protestors, or Mexico but from Trump’s inability to follow public health advice and do his job to protect Americans.

5. Reopening Schools
Against the advice of many public health experts, President Trump and Education Secretary Betsy DeVos pushed for schools across the country to reopen with in-person instruction this fall. “SCHOOLS MUST OPEN IN THE FALL!!!” Trump tweeted. In another tweet, Trump threatened that he “may cut off funding” for schools if they don’t fully re-open.

Due to his aggressive demands, schools have reopened and cases, unsurprisingly, have skyrocketed. Hundreds of districts––urban, rural, and suburban schools––have now reversed their decisions on in-person classes, switching to remote instruction. By some estimates, at least half of the nation’s children will now spend a significant portion of the fall, or longer, learning from computers at home.

Teachers and their unions across the country have expressed frustration with the way the Trump, his administration, and other GOP leaders have handled reopening schools amid the COVID-19 pandemic.

6. Ignoring Face Mask Procedures and Social Distancing Advice
Since the start of the pandemic, scientists and public health experts have urged people to wear face masks and social distance because these tactics have been proven to be some of the most powerful weapons to fight the new coronavirus.

In mid-July, Robert Redfield, director of the CDC, said he believes the pandemic could be brought under control if “we could get everybody to wear a mask right now.” There has been more than enough evidence showing how masks help reduce transmission.

The CDC has advised to keep at least 6 feet away from other people indoors and outdoors since the start of the pandemic. And a recent report published in The BMJ found that distancing beyond 6 feet should be considered with circumstances like coughing and shouting indoors, large crowds, prolonged contact time, and no face coverings.

Despite knowing what necessary precautions must be taken, cases and deaths from COVID-19 in the U.S. continue to rise as the President fails to endorse scientifically-proven social distancing measures and mask procedures.

When asked if he would consider instituting a mask mandate, Trump responded, “No, I want people to have a certain freedom, and I don’t believe in that, no.”

Just a few days later, Trump flipped his position at a White House news briefing, saying that “whether you like the mask or not, they have an impact, they have an effect, and we need everything we can get.”

Still, what Trump says is different than what he does. During the RNC, roughly 1,500 people gathered the South Lawn of the White House for Trump’s RNC acceptance speech. Seats were tightly packed, only a few guests were seen wearing masks, and the event violated guidelines from Washington DC that prohibit mass gathering of more than 50 people.

What’s next?
Speakers during the RNC repeatedly continually referred to the coronavirus pandemic in the past tense, as if it was something the U.S. has already overcome. This is far from the truth thanks to President Trump’s failed leadership.

Other comparable countries had to deal with the same baseline issues as the U.S. Yet as students return to in-person classrooms in parts of Europe, sports teams can play in front of fans in South Korea, and more restaurants allow in-person dining in Italy, many U.S. states have had to backtrack on reopening plans.

If Trump and his administration continue to ignore public health experts and endanger Americans due to their incompetence and inability to lead, the idea of “returning to normal” after the pandemic seems to become less and less likely.

 

[Jetflag]

concerning your source: One Green Planet - Media Bias/Fact Check

1. Cutting Resources To Critical Health Organizations

false: Trump's proposed budget cuts never went into effect. Also, Funding to fight the latest outbreak came from a congressional fund created for health emergencies. Also not wanting to create mass panic is a bad thing apparently.

2: Misinformation about Treatments and Vaccines:

Also I find “promote” a false frame, he said the research could be interresting. Again, its not within his power to push this through or stop it for that matter. Depends on the invividual state, who can just ignore him.

3: Failure to Take Responsibility

He didn’t, he didn’t accept it in the first place since its not his to accept. Its not the presidents responsibility to test the virus, nor have his ramblings slowed down any lab as a result of that. Outrage over words, not substance

4: Xenophobic blame game.

Yes? the virus came from China, where is the lie? And/or how is this not appropriately placing blame? How are they not knowing full well (among which by the WHO’s criticism on the (wuhan) wetmarkets in earlier years) what would and could happen? Pulling the outrage/race card isn’t in any way an argument against that (or for that for that matter)

5: Reopening Schools

This is a valid criticism I agree with especially the * in full statement, hence me being split on the topic. that being said, Multible countries with mass covid infection rates like say Belgium have schools reopened with split classes, covid sananatize protocols and face masks.I do think the (a) country should start up asap. so i'm on the side of opening, but not in the way Trump wants

6. Ignoring Face Mask Procedures and Social Distancing Advice

I’ve already touched this earlier, the timeframe and incoming information in which you place these remarks is relevant. Also Trump has been seen wearing a mask after research was verified and even urged his citizens to wear it, describing it as an act of patriotism.

 

[dmgtz96]

B; as for the CDC and the back and forth on masks, same thing. not their exact fault is it? They're just reflecting the incoming data by frame, largely due to unclear WHO information who had to put out multible tweets explaining how and what with a large timespan in between. (of all mediums the most poor one, due to its restriction on caracters)

At the very beginning, the CDC recommended people not to wear masks. This recommendation wasn't based on data (there wasn't much data available then), but rather on the CDC wanting to keep people from hoarding masks so these would be available to health care practitioners. Marketwatch article (lean-right bias). That decision caused major confusion, led to a strong anti-mask sentiment, and reflects badly on the CDC.
You're going to rip apart any left-leaning source, and frankly I'd have done the same to you had you used strong right-leaning sources.

Did you ever watch Trump's interview with Axios (center bias)?

Yes, it's true that Trump as the president of the US is not an omnipotent dictator (yet), but Jonathan Swan touched on a very good point as to why Trump's response is very important.

Jonathan Swan (interviewer): You know, I've covered you for a long time, I've gone to your rallies, I've talked to your people. They love you. They listen to you. They listen to every word you say. They hang on your word. They don't listen to me or the media or Fauci. They think we're fake news. They want to get their advice from *you*. And so, when they hear you say "everything's under control, don't worry about wearing masks". I mean, these people - many of them are older people, Mr. President. It's giving them a false sense of security.

So, no, I disagree with your rebuttal about my comment on the country's "extremely bad leadership." A true leader would have listened to and empowered the experts and done everything possible from his position to minimize the number of infections and deaths.

About hurricane Laura: yes, hurricane season happens every year (that's why it's a season, duh). That being said, you don't think the hurricane that caused more agricultural damage in Louisiana than Rita and Katrina is special? (source: The Advocate, neutral/center)

That Sam Harris video was very good, by the way.

 

[Jetflag]

At the very beginning, the CDC recommended people not to wear masks. This recommendation wasn't based on data (there wasn't much data available then)

Correct and so did the WHO who’s stance they replicated since they are the ones who get the data first and which, like you said, wasn’t fully in yet regarding mask effectiveness of Covid19. In its UN mandate the WHO is actually obliged to consider quote: "health measures that, on the basis of a risk assessment appropriate to the circumstances, are not more restrictive of international traffic and trade and are not more intrusive to persons than reasonably available alternatives that would achieve the appropriate level of health protection." Hoarding from the ensuing panic would and did lead in some cases to mask shortage in hospitals. When the market adjusted and the studies where in, Both the WHO and the CDC changed their stance accordingly. And i think they did as well as they could given the power of their institute and the circumstances.

Trump's interview with Axios........"extremely bad leadership."

no I didn’t watch that particular interview, thanks! will do,

regarding the quote:

I think that taking Trump’s (12 orso?) political rallies/ events after corona as the main pool of information given to the whole US public on covid19 is a bit of dishonest fishing/ nitpicking in the grand scheme of things. The information released by the white house/ CNC to the Demos (so not just Trump rally attendee) nationwide regarding health advice like washing your hands, don’t cough on your grandma, maintain distance and stay indoors if your sick etc. have, (with the exception of post hoc info mask wearing ,which trump also adopted post hoc and promoted as discussed above) has been on reasonably on point and brought forth at among which (afaia, correct me if I’m wrong) every white house briefing since.

Also, not causing mass panic and/or hoarding (which is what I’ve seen happen in my country) by saying “everything is under control, don’t worry about masks” is 1, no sidestep from the CNC health advice (then), and 2 in my eyes a good thing to do.

so..False sense of security, well maybe, but one could just as easily call it reassuring your people and preventing mass panic.

personally, (but that’s just me) I don’t just look at Trump as just the brass personality, which is where most of the outrage seems to lie. I look at the siting government with him at the helm and what its doing. (in comparison to the rest of the world) and conclude that his personal demeanor might not be always on par or could even be called somewhat counter productive at instances, but that its also far from “extremely bad leadership”

Extremely bad leadership is plunging your country into mass starvation or a 4 year bullshit war abroad because you’re sure “we have found weapons of mass destruction”

but we’ll just have to agree to disagree and drink a beer on that

About hurricane Laura: yes, hurricane season happens every year (that's why it's a season, duh). That being said, you don't think the hurricane that caused more agricultural damage in Louisiana than Rita and Katrina is special? (source: The Advocate, neutral/center)

No, I think it’s a steady trend we’ve been seeing of increased and erratic extreme weather patterns all across the globe for 60 years now and this one is no exception, nor the US being exclusive in this.

In fact, expect things to get worse.

(dundunduuuuun!)

 

[brandonl]

I don't know why anyone here is defending trump, that makes me laugh.

 

[Jetflag]

I don't know why people keep spreading misinformation about him and his office. Its like to them he's the literal incarnation of Satan which makes me laugh.

but part of the reason I do is that everybody and their dog already seem to be going after him (and mainly his caracter) since 2016, whilst only glaring over the actuall substance.

which I find rather lazy for any thread or discussion on USA realpolitik and politics, and had this been a Daily Wire forum I would consequently be on the other side of the isle.

 

[Hensmon]

and thats what i meant the medias caracter paint job of him, which is what you're focussing on.

I do find the media coverage of him to be utter shite for sure, obsessing endlessly over aesthetic bullshit too much. As mentioned in my previous post I am no fan of bloated media narratives like this. But I watch/read almost 0 news... my conclusions about his character are based on his words and actions, of which have set an unprecedented stupidity in the history of Western politics.

I agree with you that policy and political ideology is a better way to align personal preference, but that does not negate the fundamental importance of character, leadership, skill etc. These are critical for the role, without them you cannot implement ideas or policy effectively, or even lead, which is the whole point. Trump is without question failing on all accounts. A pathological liar, indications of sociopathic tendencies and entirely driven by ego. You couldn't pick worse qualities to have as a leader. His words are almost always stupid, divisive or lacking integrity, and he possibly has a drug problem (Adderol). His sexism and racism I would say is fairly well document (yet blown out of proportion) and he generally relies on pushing fear based rhetoric to win support. You wouldn't choose a person like this as a business partner, or as a colleague in a millions years, let alone let them spend time with your child... He may agree with you about sport, schooling, music, politics, but in the end that accounts for nothing when the foundation of which the execution will arise is severely faulted. He's not the devil he's made out to be, but he is still a 1/10 in terms of what we look for in world leaders.

You've outlined the policy alignment you're concerned with and its relevance to yourself, yet as you're a European, not residing in America, you can maybe argue only one has relevance to your life (America's military expansion), in which you agree with Biden. Perhaps Trumps stern approach to China may have some long-term benefits to you, but that is too abstracted from the point. Therefore seems like your hypothetical support of Trump stems more from personal idealogical tribalism, than from any utilitarian benefits or actualised benefits. The American policy that would have relevance to you is climate, foreign policy and corporate corruption or monopolies that influence our own economies. Those three areas are a disaster for Trump and the Republicans in general, in some cases in complete opposition.

 

[Jetflag]

but that does not negate the fundamental importance of character, leadership, skill etc. These are critical for the role, without them you cannot implement ideas or policy effectively, or even lead, which is the whole point. Trump is without question failing on all accounts.

Lets break that down a bit. Trump has been succesfull and semi succesfull in fulfilling a number of his campain promises.

- Tax cuts
- Paris climate deal
- supreme court nominee
- semi-ban on immigrants from * checkmarked* countries
-though no physical wall has been build, his tarif threats on mexico have reduced the illegal immigration to the united states by 56%, mexico defacto became the wall and they're paying for it with armed border guards.
-troops have been allocated and in some instances retreated from the middle east conflict.
-Isis has been defeated and sullemani shitposted himself to death without starting a militairy conflict with Iran.
-new trade deal with china has been signed.
-he's been nominated for a nobel peace prize for his role in the UAE/Isreal treaty/dialogue.
-and before covid struck the world, the Us economy, especially for low black and latino households, was booming,


he also had a number of failures.

-North korea negotiations failed.
-US infrastructure rebuild has seen little progress
- Nato reforms have been abandoned
- never got to prosecute hillary Clinton or fully "drain the swamp" for that matter
- lost the house of representatives (though to be fair, after the shock election a slight comeback was inevetable)

And though I disagree this was due to his office /office bounds and/or the restrictions placed on that within the federal system he operates in: lets add

- failure to keep Covid out of the states
- resulting in an economic crisis in the last half year.

Do you find it fair to, given that, label his 4 year as a complete "failing on all accounts" in terms of policy implementer/leadership?


You then rapid fire a list of caracter flaws which i'm not going to go through one by one. I can write a similar essay on say: how Biden is a pathological liar, possible pedophile, senile, racist who thinks himself to be the black's new jezus who thinks you aren't black if you don't vote for him, despite him being an intrical part of the same controversial crime act that had the knock on effects on the black community consequently leading to george floyd and many others) and how Trump maybe a 1 out of 10 but he would definily be a 0! But that would be mudflinging and frankly i'm not really all that interrested in that all that / that doesn't get us anywhere.

Like said i'm far more interrested in the ideological foundations, resulting politics and real politik situation.

He's not the devil he's made out to be, but he is still a 1/10 in terms of what we look for in world leaders.

Well for this thread I look at him as an american president, not a hypothetical world leader since i disagree there is one.

You've outlined the policy alignment you're concerned with and its relevance to yourself, yet as you're a European, not residing in America, you can maybe argue only one has relevance to your life

This isn't about my life, its about what I think about the USA's situation, which can by all accounts be purely academic. Further more, I have family and friends in the states and as such a personal interrest and on top of that, where America leads, europe and especially NL, usually follows.

Therefore seems like your hypothetical support of Trump stems more from personal idealogical tribalism, than from any utilitarian benefits or actualised benefits.

I drew a whole list of ideological, practical and utilitarian political points I agree/split/disagree on with biden v trump and asked you to pick a few so we can discuss..

Yet you assume i'm just an tribal ideologue?...You're projecting Hensmon, and you're better then that. Don't.

The American policy that would have relevance to you is climate, foreign policy and corporate corruption or monopolies that influence our own economies. Those three areas are a disaster for Trump and the Republicans in general, in some cases in complete opposition.

well I'm happy to break down climate, foreign policy and corporation monopolies when it comes to Trump v Biden if you like. But i will insist you refrain from projecting and/or thinking you can read my mind or intentions on things. alright?

 

[Hensmon]

Haha yeah, I think it was the 'relevant issues (for me)' quote that made me allude to the tribalism aspect, as all the policy you listed was essentially domestic and lacks relevance to both our lives. So without relevance, I am left guessing to few alternatives, like choosing a side for sides sake. Let's call it a bad guess then lol. Certainly having family in the States adds a little weight to them now, but hard for me to know that

I agree Trump achieved some things (and some good!), but I wouldn't call your list ground-breaking or that extensive. My total failings comment was more directed at his character and skill, rather than number of policies he's implemented, which I feel is a bad way to measure success. 1 great idea has more impact than 10 average ones. Giving tax-cuts, selecting demographics to ban and not turning up to climate deals requires little to no effort and no skill. His primary campaign messages were 'build the wall', 'lock her up' and 'drain the swamp'. None of which has happened. I think its fair to say he is failure then on his policy too. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Many people Trump employed in his staff are some of the most corrupt and war-mongering scum bags in U.S politics...hardly drained the swamp. I agree with you about China, and I like what he did with North Korea, even thought it's run into problems. We are really clutching at straws from already slim pickings here.

The reason I preferred him to Hillary in the first election was his rhetoric on ending illegal and pointless wars, which he's not even close to doing. He announced Qatar a terrorist state and then literally sold them military fighter jets months later. No integrity as I mentioned. Same for Saudi's who U.S own intelligence agencies identified as funding ISIS (and other terrorist groups) in the regions (wikileaks), yet he continues to give them money, weapons, support etc. He has put more American troops into wars in the ME overall than taking them out, so your claim is not true - read here. Now this is a topic and a policy that brings relevance back into the debate. Wars cost a sickening amount of cash. They caused a European migrant crisis that destabilises our social fabric, burdens our economy and sends terrorists to our doorsteps. It also damages right-wing politics by fuelling the grotesque sides of nationalism. And most importantly it delivers millions upon millions of deaths. Essentially it's a disaster for everyone involved. It's effecting us directly and in fundamental ways.

Bidens campaign policy states it will 'End Forever Wars'.. stopping it's involvement in the war in Yemen and remove the majority of Troops from Afghan. I'll believe it when I see it, but If even 50% of that happens it still puts the U.S, Europe and the ME in massively better place than what Trump offers.. And for that, the admittedly crappy democratic candidate will always get my support, no matter how dumb his policy may be on schooling or billionaire taxes. Our own countries will be in a far better place for it.

 

[Thijs]

Ex. those in Europe?

Poor non-reliable 3rd world country. Or at least a president who belongs to it

 

[dmgtz96]

but we’ll just have to agree to disagree and drink a beer on that

(dundunduuuuun!)

We disagree on many things, but I'll be damned if I didn't wish more conversations across political ideologies were more like this (versus just attacking those who don't share the same viewpoint, right and left alike).

 

[Jetflag]

We disagree on many things, but I'll be damned if I didn't wish more conversations across political ideologies were more like this (versus just attacking those who don't share the same viewpoint, right and left alike).

make that two beers then

"libtard"

 

[Jetflag]

Haha yeah, I think it was the 'relevant issues (for me)' quote that made me allude to the tribalism aspect, as all the policy you listed was essentially domestic and lacks relevance to both our lives. So without relevance, I am left guessing to few alternatives, like choosing a side for sides sake. Let's call it a bad guess then lol. Certainly having family in the States adds a little weight to them now, but hard for me to know that

oh they're not even the most "relevant" issue's for me, they're just a rough summary of the (IMO) main spearpoints of contention in the coming election.

Biden and Trump are in agreement on issues like say.. nationalized healthcare, foreign militairy policy or nuclear power and make simmilar promises, so it would be a bit pointless for me to mention those in the list since it would be a bit hard to asign positional preference.

The reason I preferred him to Hillary in the first election was his rhetoric on ending illegal and pointless wars, which he's not even close to doing. ...... He has put more American troops into wars in the ME overall than taking them out, so your claim is not true - read here. ....It's effecting us directly and in fundamental ways.

the exact troup deployment numbers aren't released yet. so the claim being made there is unveriviable and its "source" a journo retweet claiming the "pentagon" said it, So I wouldn't call that a reliable statement. What has been released is middle east troop deployment data up to 2017 showing overall steady decrease trend there,
How many troops are deployed in the Middle East? - USAFacts

https://www.usnews.com/news/electio...nts-how-many-us-troops-are-in-the-middle-east
Usa oversea militairy presence is at a 60 year low. So i'll grant you he hasn't succeeded yet, but from the factual data (we have available to us) we can at least infer he's working on it, whereas Biden only made a promise similar to that of trump. Concerning weapon sales to the saudi's or UAE. I don't see any reason judging by the biden campain big-dollar organizers of his last minute Super PAC fund acceptance, with among which Raytheon missile defense systems floating around in the bowl, that Biden will cease weapon delivery or break existing contracts when in office lol. and to be fair, nor wil Trump. So potato potato, So, I wouldn't get my hopes up all that much in terms of weapon trade. Troop depolyment would warrant carefull optimism on both camps to be fair. Its an easy political score point that both camps utilize.

all in all Trump and Biden seem to be relatively in alignment on the issue on what they want to do with troops in the middle east (like i said its a shared popular demos opinion/position) and they both also don't come across as the ones ending weapon trade. So for me its not all that of contentious issue or choice between them. If i had to add those to the list my position would be "split" and if I had to choose i'd pick the devil i know, but i can just as easily see why someone would go for Biden