UFOs and Aliens

dmgtz96

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@dmgtz96 8.5years would be a long time indeed to travel to our nearest star, but remember we as humans have craft traveling for decades before it reaches the destination, so no reason why advanced races wouldn't send out unmanned craft for extended periods of time. Although as you say, the closest lifeform might be 50 or 1000 light years away, which would put the number very high
Yeah, I should have specified that my comment was with respect to manned aircraft/spaceships/and so on.
Isn't the opposite true? I'm talking about Fermi's Paradox, in which states that the size of the Universe is so large and the age so old that mathematically we should be seeing countless civilizations succeed in interstellar travel (however fast that may be). These would be active or relics. The fact that we haven't is a mathematical paradox.

The Kepler telescope findings helped produce an estimate of 40 billion planets in the habitable zone, and this was from 2013. Number is likely higher now. That's just the Milkway alone. 40 billions planets with millions upon millions of years to produce multiple intelligent lifeforms. We went from horse and carriage to rover on mars in little over 100 years. Its microscopic time to achieve space travel.
Interesting, hadn't heard of Fermi's paradox but I had heard of the Drake equation.
Here's the link to the wiki article on possible explanations for Fermi's paradox. My money is on "It is the nature of intelligent life to destroy itself" based on how humanity is doing right now. "Periodic extinction by natural events" is also plausible. With COVID I wouldn't be surprised if other intelligent civilizations were wiped out by some kind of virus instead of the reasons mentioned in the article.

Your comment about the 40 billion planets in the Milky Way needs context. For reference, once you consider rogue/orphan planets the Milky Way is estimated to have 10^15 - 10^19 planets. For the lower number, 40 billion is just 0.004% of all planets in the galaxy. For the higher number, 40 billion is negligible. Further, the Milky Way has a radius of 129,000 light years based on recent research (previous researchers had calculated ~52 thousand lightyears). Even though 40 billion habitable planets exist in the Milky Way, they are a negligible amount of the total planets in the galaxy, and they are far enough away from us to never reach us during the microscopic time our civilization has existed.
 
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jetflag

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But there could be countless of explanations to the FTL/Distance problem. Not hard to imagine that solutions beyond humans limited understanding of physics, time/space, dimensions, light etc are possible and understood by hyper advanced life. Perhaps the can travel at 30% the speed of light? Perhaps they could even be coming from a different dimension, or understand time manipulation? Possibilities are endless really.
Sure, there are (always) things we probably don't know or don't know for sure. But there are also things we do know and know for sure. and within those bounds, non of those countless explanations solve the mathmatical/temporal paradox problems associated with FTL.. its not so much a physics problem as it being a mathematical impossibility.. try imagen a division by 0, or what it means to have a bottle of negative 1 liter of water..

this even holds for things like the multiverse where there’s 11 instead of our universe with (conceptual) 5 dimensions.

FTL is a nice academic thought exercise and a cool science fiction trope if you ignore what it actually means. Light speed as a term has actually very little to do with light. a far more accurate term would be FTC. Faster then Causality.

I’ll grant you the theoretical possibility say, a harvesting generation or seed ship traveling at 10% c on a million+ year voyage going from system to system. Like the stuff we see in Independence day. But concerning FTL and associated loopholes I’m with Gagi on that one. The “there’s endless possibilities” is for me at least a bit archetypically similar to the “well, God did it” argument in this context.

same goes for the "but its just our human perspective" well yeah.. but your perspective that there might be other perspectives of physics besides the "human" perspective of the natural world is also a human perspective so...we have nothing else BUT the human perspective. what other perspective would you employ?

(unless you hensmon, are secretly alien :p )

That aside plenty of other problems why I personally reject the idea of aliens among us. such as the deafening silence of all our closest (if you can even call that close lol) neighbouring star systems with even low goldilock potential. There's no such thing as stealth in spacetime especially on a civilizational level since spacetime doesn't erase history and we should be able to at least pick up the (historical) signal remants of starting (k1) civilizations in our galactic neighbourhood.

and since we don’t ..well..the logical, horrible conclusion is that we’re probably alone in our corner of the universe. Either being the first, or at the not-extinct-yet stage. Or just…the only one’s period.

but hey, we always have each other..and potential future mars/sol or proxima colonies to look forward too.
 
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jetflag

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Wow so many good responses. None of you seen the UFO though??? I think someone on this forum must of had an experience, but maybe not. You know many astronaughts have seen these things too? One gentleman talks of huge fleets of UFO seen while in their spaceship from the 70's. His name is Gordon Cooper. Another astrodude called Edgar Mitchell also says 'aliens are real'. He stepped foot on the moon, number 4 I think. These astrodudes telling some cool stories, makes you think because I have respect for them and dont know why they would lie about this topic. Whats to gain?
oh i've seen plenty, but non of them would conclude me to believe that any of them are of alien origin though.
 

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The “there’s endless possibilities” is for me at least a bit archetypically similar to the “well, God did it” argument in this context [...] same goes for the "but its just our human perspective" well yeah.. but your perspective that there might be other perspectives of physics besides the "human" perspective of the natural world is also a human perspective so...we have nothing else BUT the human perspective.

Endless possibilities but within the context of science ,technology, travel. I think thats reasonable.

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought your point was that distances are so large it would require light speeds in order for aliens to visit us, and since that cannot be achieved, aliens can not visit us.

I would say that's an assumption and a big one, requiring 3 individual assumptions to be true, each one massive in its own right. That would be 1. What we know about FTL/FTC is complete 2. Significant levels of FTL can never be achieved i.e 60% 3. Traveling via this method (velocity through a vacuum) is the only way of travel.

My lazy analogy would be someone from 200 years ago being told that soon we could visit the moon and it would take 2 days . They would think it impossible, a horse cannot fly. Conceiving the technology is too much for them.

I think the barriers around distance are valid in the debate, but not a deal breaker (at all). Too many huge assumptions required in order to say with confidence 'here is an obstacle that cannot be overcome'
 
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Sleepy Robot

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Why wouldn't there be aliens? We exist too don't we? But just like most i don't think they would come over here only to hoover around and then dissapear again.
 
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jetflag

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Endless possibilities but within the context of science ,technology, travel. I think thats reasonable.

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought your point was that distances are so large it would require light speeds in order for aliens to visit us, and since that cannot be achieved, aliens can not visit us.
at the distances we're talking e.a. inter galactic travel (since our local observable cluster has 0 signs of intelligent life) FTL pretty much becomes a practical neccesity yes. That being said. I grant (and have granted) you that say..a million year generational/seed garden ark is concievable in theory, provided it has self-replicating capability to counter the entropic forces when travelling from star to star. the chances for such an object (under thrust) to remain hidden for an intelligent species with the current sky watching capabilities we currently have is in my estimation extremely slim though, hence I do not believe in alien's visiting or having visited us, and if they have it happened (tens/hundreds) of thousands of years ago, maybe. But Alien UFO's "investigating" the human species and anally probing people in the middle of nightly abuctions because reasons unknown anno 1960-now? nah. i'd pick the likelyhood of an actual unicorn existing over that..
 
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jetflag

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Why wouldn't there be aliens? We exist too don't we? But just like most i don't think they would come over here only to hoover around and then dissapear again.
sure, but there's a difference between the statistical likelyhood of there being other live in the universe, UFO's (unidentfied flying objects, which don't have to be alien in origin at all/perse) and Alien UFO's
 

Sleepy Robot

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sure, but there's a difference between the statistical likelyhood of there being other live in the universe, UFO's (unidentfied flying objects, which don't have to be alien in origin at all/perse) and Alien UFO's
Yes i agree. Unidentified flying objects exist for sure but that doesn't mean it's aliens checking in.
 

dmgtz96

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Endless possibilities but within the context of science ,technology, travel. I think thats reasonable.

Maybe I misunderstood but I thought your point was that distances are so large it would require light speeds in order for aliens to visit us, and since that cannot be achieved, aliens can not visit us.

I would say that's an assumption and a big one, requiring 3 individual assumptions to be true, each one massive in its own right. That would be 1. What we know about FTL/FTC is complete 2. Significant levels of FTL can never be achieved i.e 60% 3. Traveling via this method (velocity through a vacuum) is the only way of travel.

My lazy analogy would be someone from 200 years ago being told that soon we could visit the moon and it would take 2 days . They would think it impossible, a horse cannot fly. Conceiving the technology is too much for them.

I think the barriers around distance are valid in the debate, but not a deal breaker (at all). Too many huge assumptions required in order to say with confidence 'here is an obstacle that cannot be overcome'
We would need a massive breakthrough in negative mass/negative energy, on the order of the entire mass of the universe. I mean, maybe it could happen hundreds of years in the future, but we just don't have experimental proof yet.
 
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jetflag

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We would need a massive breakthrough in negative mass/negative energy, on the order of the entire mass of the universe. I mean, maybe it could happen hundreds of years in the future, but we just don't have experimental proof yet.
yeah I think even that is wildly optimistic...

negative energy/mass its a nifty mathmetical loophole to a backwardly solve the theoretical possibility of a warp drive or two way traversable wormhole. but the concept IRL is rather absurd if you think about it

what does it mean to have a bottle of negative one liter of water/ mass?

same with anti-gravity, how on earth would you even capture let alone mold something that by its very definition is increasingly repellant the closer you get to it?

and even if you manage to solve all that by some miracle. You're still stuck with the causality problem. Any FTL or apparant FTL system has paths in spacetime that lead back to before it was made or launched in terms of say, a spaceship.

Ergo time machine, Ergo paradox.
 
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Hensmon

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The other thing I see you guys mention here is how the lack of contact and observed aliens is a good indicator that we are either alone, extremely isolated or that distance problem we've discussed is indeed to large to solve.

The problem with the 'lack of contact' theory is that it's simply not the case. There were 6000 UFO reports in the US alone last year. Most likely 10's of thousands reported across the world each year too. Of course most of these have easy or simple explanations, but there is a small percentage that cannot be explained. These are being observed by the most credible people on earth; military personal, space agencies, astronauts, government personal and domestic air-pilots across the world, who openly talk about it. These cases are often observed by multiple witnesses and captured via satellite imagery and/or radar. What they describe is eye raising to say the very least.

A deeper look into these kinds of cases and you observe mounting evidence that is pointing increasingly towards Alien visitation. In fact I would say the evidence is now is so overwhelming that it might constitute as proof. Big claim, but you're likely going to be blown away actually with how mental this is all becoming. There was a real shift in 2017 when the NY Times broke a front page article sharing 3 UFO videos (captured and confirmed by the Pentagon). A stigma got lifted in the public sphere. It also talked about the Pentagon's UFO program, which up until that point their position was blanket denial on any interest on the subject for the last 50 years. Finally they admitted to studying these things and in a serious/official manner. That program was called the Aerial Threat Identification Program (ATIP).

The man that headed and ran the entire program, Luiz Elizondo had this to say

"My personal belief is that there is very compelling evidence that we may not be alone,

These aircraft -- we'll call them aircraft -- are displaying characteristics that are not currently within the US inventory nor in any foreign inventory that we are aware of.

Things that don't have any obvious flight services, any obvious forms of propulsion, and manoeuvring in ways that include extreme manoeuvrability beyond, I would submit, the healthy G-forces of a human or anything biological.

The F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft, one of the most manoeuvrable in the U.S.'s arsenal, reaches its limit at around 16 to 18 G's, while the human body can withstand about 9 G's for a very short time before a person would start to black out.

These things that we were observing were pulling 400 to 500 G's. They don't have engines or even wings, and they are able to seemingly defy the natural effects of Earth's gravitational pull."

That's the Pentagons own words!!! 500g's is an acceleration of nought to 11,000mph in a single second!! And these craft are doing that without any wings or propulsion system, peforming right angle turns !?. You can listen to one of the 4 pilots who saw one of these craft talk about it on Joe Rogan for 2 hours, he's called Commander David Fravor.

So how do you explain that? It is absolutely unrealistic to believe that human technology has achieved a propulsion technology that defies the laws of physics. In the last couple of months we now have 3 ex CIA Directors and the previous US Head of Intelligence confirming the same thing, one of them essentially saying it's Alien life. The list of high ranking military and gov officials all over the world telling us its real is massive, and growing monthly. Here are a bunch of quotes from some of those people (tip of iceberg)


1. John Ratcliffe (US Head of Intelligence, Trump years)
We are talking about objects that have been seen by Navy or Air Force pilots, or have been picked up by satellite imagery, that frankly engage in actions that are difficult to explain, movements that are hard to replicate, that we don’t have the technology for or are traveling at speeds that exceed the sound barrier without a sonic boom.

2. John Brennan (Ex CIA Director, Obama years)
I think some of the phenomena we’re going to be seeing continues to be unexplained and might, in fact, be some type of phenomenon that is the result of something that we don’t yet understand and that could involve some type of activity that some might say constitutes a different form of life.

3. Edgar Mitchell (4th Man on the Moon)
We are being visited...It is now time to put away this embargo of truth about the alien presence. I call upon our government to open up … and become a part of this planetary community that is now trying to take our proper role as a spacefaring civilisation.”

4. Chris Mellon (Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence in the Clinton and Bush Administrations)
Two F-18s approach, the four aviators see that the object has no wings or exhaust — it is white, oblong, some 40 ft long and perhaps 12 ft thick...One pilot pursues the craft while his wingman stays high. The pilots are astonished to see the object suddenly reorient itself toward the approaching F-18. In a series of discrete tumbling maneuvers that seem to defy the laws of physics, the object takes a position directly behind the approaching F-18.

5. Marco Rubio (Senator Of Florida)
The bottom line is if there are things flying over your military bases and you don’t know what they are because they aren’t yours and they are exhibiting — potentially — technologies that you don’t have at your own disposal, that to me is a national security risk and one that we should be looking into...I saw videos of craft making 90 degree turns, stopping on a dime, then taking off like a bullet. It was amazing!

6. Gordon Cooper (Astronaut of the US first manned space program, 1950/60's)
“A saucer flew right over (us), put down three landing gears, and landed out on the dry lakebed. (The cameramen) went out there with their cameras toward the UFO.... I had chance to hold (the film) up to the window. Good close-up shots. There was no doubt in my mind that it was made someplace other than on this earth."

"Intelligent beings from other planets regularly visit our world in an effort to enter into contact with us. NASA and the American government know this and possess a great deal of evidence. Nevertheless, they remain silent in order not to alarm people. I am dedicated to forcing the authorities to end their silence.”

Mind Blowing!!!!
 
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dmgtz96

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Just read the NYT article and watched the video from 2004 "US military jets encounter unknown object." I have mixed views on this.

I hate to sound like one of those "fake news! The media is fabricating stories" people, but if I had to guess, my money is on that the video was created to justify funding the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. One of the consistent themes in the article is that the program lacked funding. If you were part of it, your job were on the line, and you knew higher-ups were skeptical about your work, wouldn't you try to make something up? "Hey, we totally have results, so fund us." The video is technically "official," but we don't know if it's true or made up.
I am especially skeptical about Robert Bigelow. He might be a billionaire, but he was the recipient of the funding for the Pentagon program. How convenient that he is convinced aliens exist. He also wanted to restrict the program to a small number of officials. In my opinion, these are HUGE red flags, and Mr. Bigelow is full of shit.

I'm with Sara Seager and James Oberg on this one. Project Blue Book gave us 701 unexplained sightings between 1952 and 1969. That does not mean they're UFOs; in science, you can have unexplained events.

edit: The video is from 2004, but the Advanced Aerospace program ran from 2007 to 2012. I'm still skeptical.
 
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Gagi

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To be completely honest, I wasn't as blown away as you said I would be. I really expected something more than a couple of people making outrageous claims. I watched those three videos from the US Navy/Air Force, and I can say, alright, it's unidentified. If it's unidentified, it doesn't imply it being aliens or some strange technology. That we can't really identify it or explain it completely also doesn't mean it's automatically aliens. If we don't have enough evidence to identify what the thing actually is, how can we say it's aliens?

We can also look at the people who stated these things and how people responded. Some have direct ties to organizations and companies that deal with UFOs, which implies financial interests - Daniel gave one example, but that Elizondo fellow also does documentaries on UFOs (some with Chris Mellon). That astronaut guy cites unnamed sources from some US Intelligence/Army/whatever organization who are also dead (I mean, come on...). The politicians I won't comment on.

I mean, just look at that Brennan guy. What has he actually said in his quote? Actually, really nothing, like a lot of politicians.
 
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Hensmon

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You have to understand that up until 2017 the Pentagon and everyone involved said all UFOs were illusions, swamp gas etc and that they had no interest in it. This is a huge change of direction for them. Now not only are they saying yes, objects are flying in US air space and we don't know what they are (!?) , but that we have them traveling at 0 to 11,000mph in 1 second, breaking the sound barrier with no sonic boom and they have no wings or signs of engines. Not just one craft but multiple over different incidents (possibly hundreds of recorded incidents) like this. What explanation would you have to explain maneuvers at that speed? We do not possess that. We have it on radar.

The problem with the character assasination approach i.e 'he's lying for money' is that it can only go so far. I shared 6 people, but I could share another 50+ more perhaps, from military and government individuals with the same narrative. The UK government is saying the same thing, the French government is saying the same thing. Belgium, Canada, China too. It's not a handful of individuals.

I also think it completely reasonable and understandable for people who know about this stuff to want to share it with the public via the means of interviews and documentaries. It's the biggest story of human kind if true.
 
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Recharge

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I will refrain from that topic for the sole reason that I was fascinated of possibilities of UFO and aliens existence and I spend a lot of years accumulating a much knowledge as I can from documentaries, forums and even some conspiracy forums. I spend many years but never reached a conclusion. I am more inclined to believe of the existence of UFO and alien civilizations that visited Earth based on seeing a UFO when I was around 10-12, now that was more than 20 years ago and cell phone cameras didn't existed yet, hell even cameras were a rare thing, not like a kid would have one. I was smart enough back then to never tell anyone and to be fair to this day I am not sure what it was. There is an airport very close to home, but the object in question did not move like any aircraft I've seen...
 
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dmgtz96

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You have to understand that up until 2017 the Pentagon and everyone involved said all UFOs were illusions, swamp gas etc and that they had no interest in it. This is a huge change of direction for them. Now not only are they saying yes, objects are flying in US air space and we don't know what they are (!?) , but that we have them traveling at 0 to 11,000mph in 1 second, breaking the sound barrier with no sonic boom and they have no wings or signs of engines. Not just one craft but multiple over different incidents (possibly hundreds of recorded incidents) like this. What explanation would you have to explain maneuvers at that speed? We do not possess that. We have it on radar.
[...]
It's the biggest story of human kind if true.
That's the thing, if it were true we would have a legitimate, peer-reviewed research article published on Nature or a journal of similar academic standing. It wouldn't be "oh, here are these blurry videos and a lot of whispers from governments all around the world" and a bunch of randos making vague claims in interviews.
 
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Gagi

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Why isn't NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory examining these videos then and making statements? It's in their interest to be able to know how to travel faster. And they have top scientists. But no, 70 years of reports and the latest craft that went to Mars didn't have anything groundbreaking or unheard of in terms of technology.

No, it's just some politicians and guys who have books to sell and whatnot.

Also, is it possible that radars are electronic equipment, and that they are noise-sensitive or something like that?

Also, is it possible that Pentagon started saying these things to help with the nation's support for the Space Force?

I have also seen an unidentified source of light at night (like a star) that travelled quite weirdly - first a spiral, and then went away but not in a straight line, with changing speeds. But that's all I've seen, and I don't want to jump to conclusions. I have not identified it based on very little evidence that I have, so I can't really claim anything but share my observation.

And most of the evidence there is wouldn't hold in a court of law. Just eyewitness testimony (which is unreliable given limited knowledge, natural phenomena and illusions, personal/business interests, beliefs, not to mention mental illnesses etc), videos that don't clearly indicate anything (or could've been digitally enhanced in some way, or just constructed completely), hearsay (someone was told by an unidentified source from Pentagon who is also dead now) etc...

Now if you believe we are being visited by aliens frequently, that's ok. Some believe that God lives up in the sky, or that the Earth is flat. Some believe they have seen Jesus or the Virgin Mary. But don't claim it to be true based on the "evidence" you have.
 
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jetflag

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you can save yourself the trouble anyhoozle: the earth is, scientifically and factually, flat depending on the observer, (and by observer i don't mean an "observing fundamentalist young earth creationist")

all you need is
1: an instance of redshifting galaxy fuctioning as the observer in this instance
2: half a dose of Einsteins special relativity
3: a snipped of Lorenz contraction

eh voila.
 
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