Conservative or liberal (politics)

[Gijs]

I can additionally see Putin backing Kamala in an attempt to both set the - what I'd say is mostly anti-Russian - American population up against her and to make his alleged connections with Trump less obvious (though that argument is definitely not as strong as Mearschiemer's).

 

[Jetflag]

I can additionally see Putin backing Kamala in an attempt to both set the - what I'd say is mostly anti-Russian - American population up against her and to make his alleged connections with Trump less obvious (though that argument is definitely not as strong as Mearschiemer's).

I wouldn't put past him lol, the man's a former KGB operative.

I do find the whole narrative how Putin and Trump are apparently besties utterly laughable. if one could stab the other in the back, he would and that's especially concerning Vlad. The only support Trump would lend putin is that which is in the best interest of the US, and the only support Putin would lend Trump is that which is in the best interest of Russia. That it. Putin would happily hack the 2024 elections in favor of Kamala if he could where he convinced she's the weaker of the two.

I mean the man kills his own chef's/ generals if they step out of line.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

...you want me to rebut you with data and stats of which you're already wholly convinced the "experts" have disproven them decisively...

...after, in a previous post(s)calling me a constant liar and bullshit artist, for pointing out an apparently exclusive right-wing problem with non-citizen voting and the checks/balances involved in that..

...in an election that its tighter then a virgin, in terms of who's going to win (ergo, small margins really matter)..

..whilst questioning whether or not the near 200 court cases currently ongoing in the US concerning voter ID laws have all been proven, signed and settled.....



Please read my last post before this one.

A lot of words to say you don't have evidence of widespread non-citizen voting. And for the record, I just don't think you engage in discourse to learn or actually see others' point of view on here. That's why this thread is not usually worth participating in. If we were talking IRL and you threw out that one side is 'saturating their vote #'s with non-citizen voting', and then couldn't back it up. What would the point be of discussing anything at all?

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

John Mearschiemer might be the greatest foreign policy scientist and scholar of all time. His peers certainly regard him in that way. You should have a listen to his take on Palenstine and Ukraine. He's a liberal, but concludes that the Democrats and Republicans offer no meaningful difference in relation to whats going on with Israel. The outcomes dont change no matter who gets in.

For Ukraine, he is more favorable of Trump. He believes the war should be ended immediately, for a number of interesting reasons. He believes Trump offers the only path towards that, even if he considers it to be a difficult thing for him to achieve. Just compare Harris vs Trump rhetoric on the matter, its night and day.

I had a super interesting conversation with some neighbors from are originally from Czechia who highly regard Mearsheimer and bring him up when we get in to politics and Ukraine. Mearsheimer though is coming from a place of expertise, even if I don't agree with his way of thinking. He's a realist, right? What are Trump's motives, and why do they align with Mearsheimer? Is Trump's America first coming from a place of nuanced foreign policy or does it just play well with his more isolationist base? Why do more than half of elected republicans in the USA support Ukraine aid (and half of republican voters last I checked)? Why have so many in Trump's inner circle sought o destabilize Ukraine from behind the scenes going back to Manafort?

There is a mountain of evidence to support shady connections between Trump and his inner circle with Russia going back 9-10 years, that would give anyone pause to question his motives. If Mearsheimer and Trump are aligned here, it doesn't make Trump some national security expert. I just find it incredulous to assign Trump a rational actor status when he is anything but that.

As for Palestine, the net effect of either administration is sadly similar, though I think Kamala will try to curb Israel more than Biden did. For the record, I think Biden tried a lot, though it doesn't seem to have impacted the collateral damage much. I don't think Trump gives a shit about Palestinians so long has he has Bibi's support though, and I expect the humanitarian crisis would be worse under a 2nd term.

 

[Jetflag]

A lot of words to say you don't have evidence of widespread non-citizen voting. And for the record, I just don't think you engage in discourse to learn or actually see others' point of view on here. That's why this thread is not usually worth participating in. If we were talking IRL and you threw out that one side is 'saturating their vote #'s with non-citizen voting', and then couldn't back it up. What would the point be of discussing anything at all?

Don't dude.. how many times do you want me to tell you: " fine, I will not discuss this with you then"

Out of the two of us you have been the bad faith arguer throughout m8.

- You immediately went ad hominem stamping everything I allegedly put forth here as disengenuous, manipulative, untrue etc. citing, not linking, things like " real data" and " credible AG's"
- You dismissed any real concerns you where forced to admit where present as "incredibly rare" even though your election is pretty much a draw and so small things make the difference,
- you repeaditally, ad nauseum, said that " this (I) is/am not worth participating/ engaging in, whilst constantly participating/engaging with it (lol)
- You pentantically and ad nauseum ask for "muh evidence"/court cases even though you are by my knowledge perfectly adept at looking up the brennancentre.org to see which current court cases are being filed for or against voter ID's in the US....whilst all my initial post was me wondering why so many progressives are ok with with open borders and no proper voter registration/identification, and that that could lead to a serious slipperly slope down the line when it comes to democratic integrity. (like: What do you want from me here, a "peer reviewed scientific published set of articles" that demonstrate empirically that this is a common sentiment under a lot of progressives and by extend a large corpus of the democrat party? )

all the while projecting I am somehow the one who's been disingenuous and doesn't want to learn, debate or actually engage others' point of view on here.

No, dude, You^ are. You've demonstrated that throughout this entire discourse, which I won't even call a discussion.

so yes, you're right. there is no point in discussing this between us, this is not worth participating in, -> So don't then.

 

[SaltAcidFatHeatAcid]

What do you want from me here

I've been very clear that the issue is your statement about non-citizens voting. It's exceedingly rare. Like so so rare, it's in the double digits over the past two decades. Backed up by the Heritage Foundation's own studies. Also backed by the Brennan center: Noncitizen Voting: The Missing Millions. The frustrating thing is that I suspect you know this already.

As to the rest of this thread. I've given you my take. You don't have to agree. No worries, just take it as a data point amongst the many others you've sparred with on here.

 

[Jetflag]

I've been very clear that the issue is your statement about non-citizens voting. It's exceedingly rare. Like so so rare, it's in the double digits over the past two decades. Backed up by the Heritage Foundation's own studies. Also backed by the Brennan center: Noncitizen Voting: The Missing Millions. The frustrating thing is that I suspect you know this already.

..sigh..

My dude...I never claimed it " happened all over the place galore" what i said was "it somewhat baffles me to see so many US progressives being totally ok with open borders and no proper voter registration/identification" and that if that sentiment continues and the party being mostly onboard with it keeps letting the leash on that, you drift towards a construct that results in a one party state.

Its a sentiment.
not a (mass) event.

what you need to ask yourself is why you immediately became extremely defensive and into "hissifit factcheck" mode over something as mundane as that.

As to the rest of this thread. I've given you my take. You don't have to agree. No worries, just take it as a data point amongst the many others you've sparred with on here.

correct, I don't have to and I actually don't. and since we're exchanging takes: I think you are, judging by our limited interactions, projecting when you say I'm the one who doesn't engage in discourse to learn or actually see others' in this case mine's point of view on here.

which is, for the very last time, why I think we should not discuss here anymore and this is my final reply to you here.

 

[dmgtz96]

This is insane, Trump is winning and might actually become president again

 

[Breach]

How is it insane? In the build up to the election Kamala Harris bragged about her endorsements from John Bolton, Dick Cheyney, Bill Kristol. This is the ultimate conservative war criminal offensive line up. How tone death must you be to think this is a positive and something we as liberals would be happy with. Americans with more than 5 minutes of memory remember what these men did and how they bankrupt our country financially and morally.

 

[No Return]

I try to be sensitive to my American TF family here, but I always find it funny how every election has labelled "the most important of our lifetimes" and also that "Everything ends if X gets in". Almost nothing changes for you and you all survive. This is the story for like 100 years.

Trump is such a bad president but you all survived 4 years before just fine. The last 4 years from an outsider looking in looks even worse for you. You had a president with dementia, are at the centre of two new wars and your country is the sickest one on earth. So maybe we all have to listen to his bullshitting again for four years, but we can rest assured that things will continue being as disappointing as it always is. Try following politics in Argentina.

 

[Jetflag]

This is insane, Trump is winning and might actually become president again

Ain’t 270 yet m8, wait and see. Cast votes don’t care about early trends

 

[Jetflag]

I try to be sensitive to my American TF family here, but I always find it funny how every election has labelled "the most important of our lifetimes" and also that "Everything ends if X gets in". Almost nothing changes for you and you all survive. This is the story for like 100 years.

Trump is such a bad president but you all survived 4 years before just fine. The last 4 years from an outsider looking in looks even worse for you. You had a president with dementia, are at the centre of two new wars and your country is the sickest one on earth. So maybe we all have to listen to his bullshitting again for four years, but we can rest assured that things will continue being as disappointing as it always is. Try following politics in Argentina.

Here here

or as the yanks themselves might put it

“hold your horses!”

Aka, be stable

 

[Progrez]

He has owned her bloody hell it's a landslide victory. I noticed that his daughter has not said anything and kept quiet.

 

[Jetflag]

He has owned her bloody hell it's a landslide victory. I noticed that his daughter has not said anything and kept quiet.

He’s no there yet m8, wait and c

 

[Gijs]

Waking up, I found it rather interesting to find out Trump's almost won already, as opposed to it taking a long time like 4 years ago. I expected the race to be closer than this as well.

But in all honesty, if I had been an American the elections wouldn't have mattered to me anyway. I've never really had faith in either candidate. Harris' policies don't work for a country as big as the US, because I think that universal healthcare and true open borders are very idealistic for a country this divided. I see Trump's policies actively damaging the country on the other hand, I don't approve of his authoritarian views and combined with his (what I think is) immature attitude, he comes across as both very controlling and uncontrollable.

The country definitely would've been better off with a Vance vs Walz presidential race as opposed to what it is now. :/

 

[Jetflag]

Fuck.

this is gonna cost me a very expensive bottle of lagavulin..

Goddammit democrats…

 

[dmgtz96]

Fuck.

this is gonna cost me a very expensive bottle of lagavulin..

Goddammit democrats…

It really was the dems fault. They've spent decades focusing on women and sexual minorities while men of all races fell behind. Men in general had a lot of pent up anger leading up to this election due to how they've been treated by liberal democracy. So this is their way of punching back.
Also, lots of young guys are pretty conservative, as well.

 

[dmgtz96]

Also, Kamala just wasn't a good candidate in general

 

[Julian Del Agranda]

Also, Kamala just wasn't a good candidate in general

I thought she was an excellent candidate. Smart, female, experienced, well-educated, can communicate very well.

What's not to like?

 

[Hensmon]

can communicate very well.

I don't know if I agree fully with this. She came across as stately and a measured contrast to Trump, but she basically refused any form of long-form unscripted and unvetted interview. Trump and Vance hit every big podcast and media interview and talked freely and for hours. When Harris did her short CNN one (questions known before hand) it was an absolute train-wreck. If she had any strong and well developed beliefs and principles to what govern her leadership/strategy in how to run the country it never came through, not even once. Eventually even she degraded into nothing but attacks and partisan rhetoric, like Trump does. It was terrible to see a candidate avoid the public space as aggressively as she did, while the other side embraced it. Listening to RFK through this process and his articulation and ability to define a vision was incredible (even if you don't agree with it).