Conservative or liberal (politics)

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
in my (limited) leaning libertarian view on the matter, what you need is to get rid of most of the massive middle management layers and kafka esq government interference. Small bureaucracy, local (provincial/municipal) hospitals

The Blairite model of the NHS "being ran like a company" whilst at the same time trying to be full on national government funded socialized healthcare (without any real market competition or profit incentive) along with all the bureaucracy that inevitably comes with that, --> Is never going to work, ever...no matter how much money you pump into it.

my advice would be: look at the Scots. If you have to have nationalized healthcare.. spread out, fragmented and with minimal (big) government. alternatively you can adopt a French/Dutch model. (but you're going to feel that in your tax-reports)
Essential services like health or even the postal service shouldn't be run like a company, imo. They exist to provide service for the population, not to be profit centers. This is why the idea of Trump running the country "like a business" was terrible.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: LostLegend

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,862 Posts
2,296 Thanked
Essential services like health or even the postal service shouldn't be run like a company, imo. They exist to provide service for the population, not to be profit centers. This is why the idea of Trump running the country "like a business" was terrible.
No. They definitely should. If not you end up with situations like Cuba. Governments role should limit itself to things like quality check, but not running it

just because something is a public service doesn’t mean therefor government. A great local example from my country is the KMRM
 
Last edited:

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
No. They definitely should. If not you end up with situations like Cuba. Governments role should limit itself to things like quality check, but not running it

just because something is a public service doesn’t mean therefor government. A great local example from my country is the KMRM
In the US, for-profit Healthcare still has the same bureaucratic issues that you don't like from government-run services, except that Americans get swindled and can't even seek medical care without breaking the bank. I'd rather have state-run Healthcare that people can actually use, even if shitty, instead of fancy Healthcare run by a private corporation that rips off everyone.
 

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,862 Posts
2,296 Thanked
In the US, for-profit Healthcare still has the same bureaucratic issues that you don't like from government-run services, except that Americans get swindled and can't even seek medical care without breaking the bank. I'd rather have state-run Healthcare that people can actually use, even if shitty, instead of fancy Healthcare run by a private corporation that rips off everyone.
State run as opposed to federal run healthcare I think is the way to go, if you want government run healthcare that is, for the us yeah,

One thing to keep in mind though:

- you ARE breaking the bank as an average citizen, except it’ll be in the form of taxes for healthcare, but also things like (among which) sugar taxor obliged sport programs in schools

if government receives taxes from you (so you know, their “profit” if you will). They don’t have an incentive to give you proper healthcare, they have an incentive to keep you out of healthcare as much as possible, since that’s cheaper, and when you do provide you with the bare minimum.

at the end of the day if you, as a healthy dem voting US citizen are ok with defacto paying the bill for a Mac chugling obese white trump supporter/ republican… then sure 🤷‍♂️ vote governors in who can implement such a state- funded healthcare system for all
 
Last edited:

Progrez

Elite Member
Jun 17, 2022
1,868 Posts
881 Thanked
I thought I would never the see the name Geert Wilders in the news again. I was wrong. He has got such strong views on Anti Muslim/Islam.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: Jetflag

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,862 Posts
2,296 Thanked
I thought I would never the see the name Geert Wilders in the news again. I was wrong. He has got such strong views on Anti Muslim/Islam.
Anti-islam, Not anti-muslim.

He has actually significantly toned down on the idea of "banning islam" over the years and in recent party program (though he still sees it as an existential thread to the west), because he knows its
a) constitutionally impossible
b) practically undoable.

And thats not even going into him having to make concessions in an attempt to form a coalition in case of an electoral victory.


I don't/didn't vote for him or his party out of prinicple, to me the way its setup is way to topdown, undemocratic and actually way to (authoritarian) left-leaning in my regards..

but, fun fact: I personally know of at least 3 morrocan/turks who voted for Wilders this turn. 🤷‍♂️
 

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
@jetlag, what's with the rise of right wing politics in the Netherlands? I heard that you guys voted in a right wing candidate.

No judgment btw, genuinely curious. Seems to follow the trend of right wing politicians getting elected all across the world
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: Jetflag

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,862 Posts
2,296 Thanked
@jetlag, what's with the rise of right wing politics in the Netherlands? I heard that you guys voted in a right wing candidate.

No judgment btw, genuinely curious. Seems to follow the trend of right wing politicians getting elected all across the world
Well I didn’t heh, I don’t vote wilders principally.

but yes,it’s not just the Netherlands , it’s France, Poland, Hungary, sweden, Italy , Greece etc. It’s all over the board.

and I think it boils down too two main reasons:

1 the left/ open border liberals simply not having an answer to the migrant crisis other then “it’s a good thing just shutup, pleb”

2 increasing demands and (undemocratic/unsovereighn) powergrasps by the eu and/or left wing parties

both things most average citizens simply aren’t on board with, but seen as they can’t vote von der leyen out and/or regulate their own borders anymore

people automatically turn to political parties with national/ populus interests at heart.
 
Last edited:
  • Thanks
Reactions: dmgtz96

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
Well I didn’t heh, I don’t vote wilders principally.

but yes,it’s not just the Netherlands , it’s France, Poland, Hungary, sweden, Italy , Greece etc. It’s all over the board.

and I think it boils down too two main reasons:

1 the left/ open border liberals simply not having an answer to the migrant crisis other then “it’s a good thing just shutup, pleb”

2 increasing demands and (undemocratic/unsovereighn) powergrasps by the eu and/or left wing parties

both things most average citizens simply aren’t on board with, but seen as they can’t vote von der leyen out and/or regulate their own borders anymore

people automatically turn to political parties with national/ populus interests at heart.

I would also say, at least in the US and certain other countries (maybe not in Europe?) 3. People in general this decade are not doing OK. Everyone is getting screwed over by inflation, we see the threat of war, instability, a grim future, which then pushes part of the population toward the right. I can see how the immigration crisis in Europe led to the victory of this Netherlands politician, though
 

facade1984

Member
Apr 27, 2021
213 Posts
290 Thanked
London, UK
I dunno where we currently are in the conversation but I think a big problem today is that we look at everything as either black or white. the whole israel/palestine thing is a good example, like if you condemn one you have to condone the other which just isn't true, both have blood on their hands. I don't believe any honest person is all conservative or all liberal. we gotta stop looking at political views like it's our whole identity. yes I also realise the naivety of expecting the internet to behave rationally though
 

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
I dunno where we currently are in the conversation but I think a big problem today is that we look at everything as either black or white. the whole israel/palestine thing is a good example, like if you condemn one you have to condone the other which just isn't true, both have blood on their hands. I don't believe any honest person is all conservative or all liberal. we gotta stop looking at political views like it's our whole identity. yes I also realise the naivety of expecting the internet to behave rationally though
This is a big problem in the US because we only have two major political parties. From an European perspective, our Democrats are center (baaarely left), and our Republicans are deep far right.

The Israel/Palestine conflict is a topic that no one wants to touch with a 10 ft pole. You *will* get fired or get your job offers rescinded for voicing your opinion, especially if it's pro-Palestine. That happened to a few college students who lost top job offers for voicing support for Palestinians.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: Archon

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
The US is very weird about the Palestine-Israel conflict. I don't think voicing any opinion about it in public can lead to anything good.

The mainstream/socially-acceptable position by the general pop is pro-Israel/Jews, which is interesting because usually the far right dog whistles plenty about Soros and other Jewish "global bankers" influencing the economy and the media. I wouldn't have expected a Republican senator to grill the MIT/Upenn/Harvard president and call for their resignation because they *did not* have concrete plans to stop anti-semitism in their college campuses. I would agree with her, though, that these presidents lack the leadership to make students feel safe. Personally, I've seen "free Palestine" posts on social media from some of my classmates. I know they're pretty far left, but it still rubs me the wrong way - imagine if you're a Jewish college student, and lots of people around you start posting about #freepalestine?

I don't know. I've been pretty quiet about it at work, and frankly I don't have a stake in this. It's just bizarre that everything about this conflict is black and white.
 

brandonl

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2020
328 Posts
148 Thanked
Guelph, Ont, Canada
The US is very weird about the Palestine-Israel conflict. I don't think voicing any opinion about it in public can lead to anything good.

The mainstream/socially-acceptable position by the general pop is pro-Israel/Jews, which is interesting because usually the far right dog whistles plenty about Soros and other Jewish "global bankers" influencing the economy and the media. I wouldn't have expected a Republican senator to grill the MIT/Upenn/Harvard president and call for their resignation because they *did not* have concrete plans to stop anti-semitism in their college campuses. I would agree with her, though, that these presidents lack the leadership to make students feel safe. Personally, I've seen "free Palestine" posts on social media from some of my classmates. I know they're pretty far left, but it still rubs me the wrong way - imagine if you're a Jewish college student, and lots of people around you start posting about #freepalestine?

I don't know. I've been pretty quiet about it at work, and frankly I don't have a stake in this. It's just bizarre that everything about this conflict is black and white.

Just because someone supports Palestine, doesn't mean they are anti sematic or anti Israel. It's more likely they simply hate the Israeli government, as do lots of Jewish/Israeli citizens.
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: dmgtz96

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,645 Posts
1,508 Thanked
Just because someone supports Palestine, doesn't mean they are anti sematic or anti Israel. It's more likely they simply hate the Israeli government, as do lots of Jewish/Israeli citizens.
On paper I would agree, however that opinion and the protests associated with it at US universities very quickly descend into pro-Hamas anti-semitism. This is why two college presidents already resigned and why the Harvard president should step down.

Edit: my Alma master's president denounced anti Semitic a couple days ago. Glad to know that he and the university are realistic.
 
Last edited:
  • Thanks
Reactions: Jetflag

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,862 Posts
2,296 Thanked
I don't know. I've been pretty quiet about it at work, and frankly I don't have a stake in this. It's just bizarre that everything about this conflict is black and white.

It’s not just that. It seems to also be sledge hammer in both (new)conservative as well as woke culture.

you may have picked up on the Shapiro vs Owens spat in the US, but it’s also here in NL. Thierry Baudet (the person magnevi referenced) is the “competition” right wing party to Wilders and actually took a very neutral (almost) pro Palestine position right after the first attack.. urging caution in taking a hard moral stance given the areas history and context. Something he would not have done say 3 years ago.

Same with the left who’ve been screaming “fascist!” And referencing the holocaust too everybody and their mom for the last decade, and now find themselves conflicted seeing áctual anti-semitism and Jew hatred arise under their very noses, whilst still almost begrudgingly having to be pro-Palestine.

this conflict, seen from a cultural helicopter view has very much the potential to shatter existing existing cultural waves like woke, post liberalism and new conservatism
 
  • Thanks
Reactions: dmgtz96