Conservative or liberal (politics)

Sleepy Robot

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2020
706 Posts
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The Netherlands
The French are so out of touch when it comes to the whole pension thing. Even young people are protesting even though they are the ones who have to pay for it. The raise is only 2 years and it's still below other countries. Get over it!
 

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,915 Posts
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I don’t agree at all. They want healthcare and education and what not. It needs to be payed by someone… In the Netherlands we have to work till 67 and that is increasing. People get older… less children…

The French should be realistic.
The government should also be competent.

As in: spend money wisely before your people riot
 

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,915 Posts
2,339 Thanked
The French are so out of touch when it comes to the whole pension thing. Even young people are protesting even though they are the ones who have to pay for it. The raise is only 2 years and it's still below other countries. Get over it!
Do you know why the French have so many revolutions?

So they can win one every now and again 🤭
 

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,666 Posts
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I don’t agree at all. They want healthcare and education and what not. It needs to be payed by someone… In the Netherlands we have to work till 67 and that is increasing. People get older… less children…

The French should be realistic.
Tax the rich?
 

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,666 Posts
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The government should also be competent.

As in: spend money wisely before your people riot
Exactly. If retirement fund money is running out, Macron should have taxed the rich, not forced the entire French population to retire later.

Those of you arguing for later retirement are missing the point. Just because you (and I) have it worse than the French doesn't mean the French should retire later. It's also not a French people's problem that retirement funds are running out. That is the French government's problem, and they need to solve it democratically instead of bypassing their entire parliament undemocratically.
 

Julian Del Agranda

Elite Member
Jul 3, 2020
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You act as if they are slaves till age 99.

But they simply contribute to the country a little bit longer, and in exchange can live freely in a wealthy country etc.

Why people expect to do nothing and get money for free… While the average age simply rises… is beyond me. Other countries like ours have higher retirement-ages.

There is less youth to support all these old people. The ratio is not what it used to be. It’s math.

(Exception for hard physical work, sure)

Tax the rich? Yes please.
 
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dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,666 Posts
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You act as if they are slaves till age 99.

But they simply contribute to the country a little bit longer, and in exchange can live freely in a wealthy country etc.

Why people expect to do nothing and get money for free… While the average age simply rises… is beyond me. Other countries like ours have higher retirement-ages.

There is less youth to support all these old people. The ratio is not what it used to be. It’s math.

(Exception for hard physical work, sure)

Tax the rich? Yes please.
Raising the retirement age is a rug pull. Macron did it undemocratically.
 
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Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
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Macron should have taxed the rich.
No, if you tax the rich->the rich leave, and sooner or later you run out of other peoples money to spend.

macron should have spend the money that he wasted better and/or Fix taxation loopholes

taxes should always be charged fairly, as in: equal percentage per (adult and earning) individual or company.

not, “you earned more then me therefor you get an extra tax”
 
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dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
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No, if you tax the rich->the rich leave, and sooner or later you run out of other peoples money to spend.

macron should have spend the money that he wasted better and/or Fix taxation loopholes

taxes should always be charged fairly, as in: equal percentage per (adult and earning) individual or company.

not, “you earned more then me therefor you get an extra tax”
Honestly I'd be fine with this as long as all loopholes and "tax breaks " were removed.
Right now rich US people can pay very little in taxes, so the law needs to be updated to prevent that situation from happening.
 
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Sleepy Robot

Senior Member
Jul 7, 2020
706 Posts
441 Thanked
The Netherlands
Exactly. If retirement fund money is running out, Macron should have taxed the rich, not forced the entire French population to retire later.

Those of you arguing for later retirement are missing the point. Just because you (and I) have it worse than the French doesn't mean the French should retire later. It's also not a French people's problem that retirement funds are running out. That is the French government's problem, and they need to solve it democratically instead of bypassing their entire parliament undemocratically.
You forget that the French are in the EU and even more important in the Euro. They can't just do whatever they want without consequences. Their governentspending is already way out of balance and if they don't raise this age it will become even worse and could risk the Euro.
 
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Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
2,915 Posts
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You forget that the French are in the EU and even more important in the Euro. They can't just do whatever they want without consequences. Their governentspending is already way out of balance and if they don't raise this age it will become even worse and could risk the Euro.
true

then again: the Euro has been at risk since its inception. Its basically a Dollar without Fort Knox, and build uppon layer on layer of:
1 old money
2 soap bubbles.

This is why I hold therather unpopular opinion in NL that we should get our own coin back. Sticking to the Euro = Delay of the invetable execution. 🤷‍♀️
 
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Archon

Gagi
TranceFix Crew
Jun 27, 2020
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Lol, imagine to work your ass off until 67 and get to enjoy the last 7-8 years of your life, IF you're lucky and none of the usual killers finish you off before then (let's say lifestyle-related, genetically-inherited, cancerous or just plain-bad-luck illnesses).

What do you have energy for, even? Life quality is usually poor at that age, for the vast majority. What have you worked for, for let's say 40+ years, earned the right just to pay bills, eat and have basic medical care?

I know the solution is to invest in your own retirement fund (or stock market etc.) and retire early, but how many of us have the privilege of having enough free cash each month to do that? 20-30 years is a long period of time, banks come and go, inflation may eat it all up, who knows...

And I also know the state is the state, politics are politics, economy is the economy, but I would say right around 50-55 is the proper (humane) cutoff time, especially for 9-5 (or physically demanding jobs). At that time people usually are fed up with working (without any purpose) - I notice it all the time. Just let everyone enjoy the fruits of their labours and live the last 20 years of their life enjoying what is left of it.
 

dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
2,666 Posts
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Lol, imagine to work your ass off until 67 and get to enjoy the last 7-8 years of your life, IF you're lucky and none of the usual killers finish you off before then (let's say lifestyle-related, genetically-inherited, cancerous or just plain-bad-luck illnesses).

What do you have energy for, even? Life quality is usually poor at that age, for the vast majority. What have you worked for, for let's say 40+ years, earned the right just to pay bills, eat and have basic medical care?

I know the solution is to invest in your own retirement fund (or stock market etc.) and retire early, but how many of us have the privilege of having enough free cash each month to do that? 20-30 years is a long period of time, banks come and go, inflation may eat it all up, who knows...

And I also know the state is the state, politics are politics, economy is the economy, but I would say right around 50-55 is the proper (humane) cutoff time, especially for 9-5 (or physically demanding jobs). At that time people usually are fed up with working (without any purpose) - I notice it all the time. Just let everyone enjoy the fruits of their labours and live the last 20 years of their life enjoying what is left of it.
finally someone said it. @jetflag, @Magnevi, and @Sleepy Robot this sentiment is more common among gen Z/late millennial early career professionals like Gagi and myself. Gagi and I have it better than a lot of people in our generation since we went to college, are engineers and hold fairly good/stable jobs, but even for us it's like, ok, am I really going to work my ass off until 67-68 and then "enjoy" the last 10 years of my life? What's the point?

edit: we've seen automation and technology improve productivity multiple times over the past several decades, but those productivity boosts are not translating into a higher standard of living for the population. In fact, the standard of living in the US is declining... all that money is being hoarded by greedy billionaires/millionaires who have way more money than they and their families will ever need.
Soooo how? Do they all get pension? There’s no money for that.
Having a more equal distribution of resources and wealth. In the US' case, there's plenty of money for corporate bailouts (COVID PPP loans, bank bailouts etc) and the military, but apparently there's no money for healthcare/education/retirement.
 

Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
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Having a more equal distribution of resources and wealth
Thats sort of like the socialist/ social constructionist answer to everything.

problem with that however is:

It doesn't work

ever. You can slice 1 fish into a 1000 precise parts as equal as you want... its still just 1 fish and 1 mini bite for a 1000 people.
What you want is more fish, or in societies case: Wealth.
 
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Archon

Gagi
TranceFix Crew
Jun 27, 2020
4,023 Posts
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Soooo how? Do they all get pension? There’s no money for that.
I'm not proposing a viable solution here, just my "wellbeing" idea. To me, working until 67 seems like "the capitalism" is drenching out every little resource of energy from me and others. And after 50, due to the encouraged competitiveness, you may need to work twice as hard with half the energy (compared to younger people).

I agree balancing life and general usefulness is difficult, and it doesn't get any easier past 55. Maybe the solution is just work very hard until ~50, save up, and relocate to do something calmer, physically active but rewarding as well - perhaps agriculture with something on the side if needed. But then you're out of a pension (and probably social security)...
 
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dmgtz96

Elite Member
Jul 13, 2020
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Thats sort of like the socialist/ social constructionist answer to everything.

problem with that however is:

It doesn't work

ever. You can slice 1 fish into a 1000 precise parts as equal as you want... its still just 1 fish and 1 mini bite for a 1000 people.
What you want is more fish, or in societies case: Wealth.
Well, capitalism isn't really working either, so something needs to be done. Unfortunately human greed is going to make both systems (capitalism/socialism) fail. Capitalism is failing *hard* in the US already, which is why so many young people are "quiet quitting" and doing the bare minimum at work.
 
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Jetflag

Elite Member
Jul 17, 2020
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Well, capitalism isn't really working either, so something needs to be done. Unfortunately human greed is going to make both systems (capitalism/socialism) fail. Capitalism is failing *hard* in the US already, which is why so many young people are "quiet quitting" and doing the bare minimum at work.
true, except that out of all systems we have available to us Capitalism demonstrably works best.

what we could try for once (since that, as opposed to socialism actually hasn't been tried) is seperation of market and state, in the same way church and state are seperated. So basically, your pension is on you instead of the government.

the genz's FIRE movement i find to be a nice bottom up cultural example of this
 
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