Public Intellectuals

dmgtz96

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This was released week. Right off the bat he talks about a crisis in the Western world. 5:30 minutes in and I'll go ahead and he's basically circled around the idea of the crisis.

in the stoking of suspicious between men and women
well, yes, women should always be suspicious of men. That's the society we live in.

in the insistence that enmity must divide brown, black, and white
hmm from most people's experiences, the "enmity" is generally from conservatives

in the panicked, anti-human, apocalyptic doom-saying that undermines the spirit of our sons and daughters
Like Andrew Tate, who is corrupting middle school and high school children around the world?

The only "future" for conservatives in the US is reinstating Roe v. Wade, and around the world: giving women autonomy and agency. If not, we'll all vote you out.
 

jetflag

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This was released week. Right off the bat he talks about a crisis in the Western world. 5:30 minutes in and I'll go ahead and he's basically circled around the idea of the crisis.
So, Where’s the lie there precisely?

well, yes, women should always be suspicious of men. That's the society we live in.
it should not be encouraged the way 3e gen woke feminists do which is what he’s alluding too, in where every single penis holder, including you, is a rapist for simply approaching a women. Or would you rather we get to a point, like the extreme Christians would like to see, where the sexes are fully separated in society again?
hmm from most people's experiences, the "enmity" is generally from conservatives
Intersectionalism insists people be put in boxes based on their melamine, sex, gender etc. And hierarchically ordered based on how oppressed they feel. Classical liberal conservatism sees people as individuals regardless of race.


and Why on earth would you want to have that useless piece of legislation back? 😅 healthcare in the US isn’t handled on a federal level but on a state one.. it was useless in getting abortion through in states like Arkansas. Even the most progressive Supreme Judge acknowledged this. It’s the wrong ruling for the problem.

Also, women have autonomy and agency in the US.

this is not you rationally debunking any of his points.
 
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dmgtz96

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So, Where’s the lie there precisely?


it should not be encouraged the way 3e gen woke feminists do which is what he’s alluding too, in where every single penis holder, including you, is a rapist for simply approaching a women. Or would you rather we get to a point, like the extreme Christians would like to see, where the sexes are fully separated in society again?

Intersectionalism insists people be put in boxes based on their melamine, sex, gender etc. And hierarchically ordered based on how oppressed they feel. Classical liberal conservatism sees people as individuals regardless of race.


and Why on earth would you want to have that useless piece of legislation back? 😅 healthcare in the US isn’t handled on a federal level but on a state one.. it was useless in getting abortion through in states like Arkansas. Even the most progressive Supreme Judge acknowledged this. It’s the wrong ruling for the problem.

Also, women have autonomy and agency in the US.

this is not you rationally debunking any of his points.
It's more like for the first 5:30 minutes he just kept talking about the crisis and didn't elaborate beyond that. All of his words are just fancy, alternate ways of saying "there is a crisis happening right now." I get what you're saying about 3rd wave feminism, but the backlash happening against them right now (ex. with MRAs, incels, and Andrew Tate) is going to make an even worse society where women will have to be segregated for their own safety. Like, if I'm walking at night and I see a random (white American) woman walking alone in the street, she is 100% in their right to be suspicious of me because she doesn't know if I'm a threat or not, but I could be a threat. A mistake from her part with the wrong guy could be disastrous for her.
For intersectionality, I'll have to research more about that.
The problem with states' rights is that, historically, the US has used "states' rights" to oppress minorities. So that should not be part of the modern American vocabulary at all, and instead abortion requires federal protections precisely so states don't just do whatever they want.
I expect that plenty of conservative politicians will get voted out this November. Roe is still hot in people's minds, and I sure as heck am voting locally to vote out Rs. If anything, JP's future of conservatism video was very effective at getting me to register to vote.
 
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jetflag

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It's more like for the first 5:30 minutes he just kept talking about the crisis and didn't elaborate beyond that. All of his words are just fancy, alternate ways of saying "there is a crisis happening right now."
well sure. its a 40 minute video part one, JP is a talker/writer so that shouldn't surprise you.

I get what you're saying about 3rd wave feminism, but the backlash happening against them right now (ex. with MRAs, incels, and Andrew Tate) is going to make an even worse society where women will have to be segregated for their own safety. Like, if I'm walking at night and I see a random (white American) woman walking alone in the street, she is 100% in their right to be suspicious of me because she doesn't know if I'm a threat or not, but I could be a threat. A mistake from her part with the wrong guy could be disastrous for her.
so lets unpack this a bit:

first: yes, In line with you that the MGTOW MRA In cell phenomenon can be seen as a backlash to half a century of (cultural) feminism. So I actually agree with JP in the sense that there a dire need for a better, more wholesome alternative to both of them, as one will radicalize the other more and vice versa.

One focussed on unity rather then division and one where men and women actually see each other more as partners with differnces rather then competitors bend on getting the most power over the other sex via female victim/ male victim grievances. since these are ultimatly toxic and solely focus on division/making things worse. ( I've also touched upon this problem in my doom- woke thread a century orso a go I believe, not sure)

I also want to highlight the often implied suggestion that the whole (and I don't know why you keep bringing up this Romanian (?) Tate guy as if Jordan ever endorsed him, promoted him or talked to him) MRA's MGTOW or Incels phenomenon is a classical liberal/centre right conservative (endorsed) phenomenon. Because its definitely not m8 😄 its a complete non sequitor to think that they are just because they're also not on board with (modern) feminism. Its one neat example of the enemy of my enemy is actually not my friend.

Incels usually aren't the "Chad" republican voting Gym Bro's who's been taught to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps from childhood m8.... They're actually far more likely to come from left wing circles and be former feminists "supreme gentlemen" who've become so embittered by woman ad nauseum rejecting them (to no-one's surprise with a fraction of cursory knowledge on how human female-male attraction works) and have turned to dark corners of the internet where quote theconversation.com: "avowed white nationalists converse with men of colour, uniting against feminism and bonding over their hatred of women." The entire incel community is it seems actually pretty diverse with around 47/50% minorities, who knew..

The colloquial Conservative view (Note: so not what Jordan is suggesting in his manifesto) on Incels is basically "Well thats just a bit of natural selection/Don't care, Virgin"


The problem with states' rights is that, historically, the US has used "states' rights" to oppress minorities. So that should not be part of the modern American vocabulary at all, and instead abortion requires federal protections precisely so states don't just do whatever they want.
the problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes that you'll most definitly are going to get a federal government who'll do that. instead of:

The problem with states' rights is that, historically, the US has used "states' rights" to push degeneracy and child murder. So that should not be part of the modern American vocabulary at all, and instead a zygote requires federal protections precisely so states don't just do whatever they want.

Same goes for the minority oppression problem. What makes you think you'll end up with a federal government who won't do that nationwide as opposed to the opposite?

This to me is the eternal fallacy of thinking bigger government is going to solve the problem. I got some bad news for you, It won't.
I expect that plenty of conservative politicians will get voted out this November. Roe is still hot in people's minds, and I sure as heck am voting locally to vote out Rs. If anything, JP's future of conservatism video was very effective at getting me to register to vote.
i wish you the best with that and fully endorse you using your democratic right 🙏 but give me a break please...I don't believe for one second it was this video that somehow pushed you over the edge to register your vote and vote dems :ROFLMAO:. you've been on that boat ever since we first spoke, lol.
 
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dmgtz96

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well sure. its a 40 minute video part one, JP is a talker/writer so that shouldn't surprise you.
One would expect a true "intellectual" to use clear and concise language and make their point, instead of hiding behind mumbo-jumbo and talking a lot without saying anything of substance. This is the problem people have with JP.
so lets unpack this a bit:

first: yes, In line with you that the MGTOW MRA In cell phenomenon can be seen as a backlash to half a century of (cultural) feminism. So I actually agree with JP in the sense that there a dire need for a better, more wholesome alternative to both of them, as one will radicalize the other more and vice versa.

One focussed on unity rather then division and one where men and women actually see each other more as partners with differnces rather then competitors bend on getting the most power over the other sex via female victim/ male victim grievances. since these are ultimatly toxic and solely focus on division/making things worse. ( I've also touched upon this problem in my doom- woke thread a century orso a go I believe, not sure)
In an ideal world, yes, your proposal would be correct. We're not there yet, and the rise of MGTOW MRA is concerning for the future of society.
I also want to highlight the often implied suggestion that the whole (and I don't know why you keep bringing up this Romanian (?) Tate guy as if Jordan ever endorsed him, promoted him or talked to him) MRA's MGTOW or Incels phenomenon is a classical liberal/centre right conservative (endorsed) phenomenon. Because its definitely not m8 😄 its a complete non sequitor to think that they are just because they're also not on board with (modern) feminism. Its one neat example of the enemy of my enemy is actually not my friend.
Jordan Peterson is well known as the gateway to alt-right content. It's him, then Ben Shapiro, then Joe Rogan and Musk, and finally Andrew Tate. One thing I want to try is open up Youtube on an Incognito window, click on the latest Jordan Peterson video and then see how quickly I get Andrew Tate videos.
Anyways, Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate's messaging is not too different. Jordan Peterson, for his academic credentials and intellect, is used as the validation for MRA/incel/alt-right beliefs. "Hey, here's a smart guy saying the same things we have been saying."
Incels usually aren't the "Chad" republican voting Gym Bro's who's been taught to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps from childhood m8.... They're actually far more likely to come from left wing circles and be former feminists "supreme gentlemen" who've become so embittered by woman ad nauseum rejecting them (to no-one's surprise with a fraction of cursory knowledge on how human female-male attraction works) and have turned to dark corners of the internet where quote theconversation.com: "avowed white nationalists converse with men of colour, uniting against feminism and bonding over their hatred of women." The entire incel community is it seems actually pretty diverse with around 47/50% minorities, who knew..
The dark corners of the internet that you're mentioning are alt-right, though. Liberal/left-wing disagrees with misogyny. If the guys were liberal but then became jaded because women kept rejecting them, and then turned to alt-right incel/misogynistic sites, then they're no longer liberal. They've turned far right.
The colloquial Conservative view (Note: so not what Jordan is suggesting in his manifesto) on Incels is basically "Well thats just a bit of natural selection/Don't care, Virgin"
I guess even true/proper conservatives don't want them. Example thread from r/IncelTear
the problem with that line of thinking is that it assumes that you'll most definitly are going to get a federal government who'll do that. instead of:

The problem with states' rights is that, historically, the US has used "states' rights" to push degeneracy and child murder. So that should not be part of the modern American vocabulary at all, and instead a zygote requires federal protections precisely so states don't just do whatever they want.
Abortion is not child murder.
Same goes for the minority oppression problem. What makes you think you'll end up with a federal government who won't do that nationwide as opposed to the opposite?

This to me is the eternal fallacy of thinking bigger government is going to solve the problem. I got some bad news for you, It won't.

i wish you the best with that and fully endorse you using your democratic right 🙏 but give me a break please...I don't believe for one second it was this video that somehow pushed you over the edge to register your vote and vote dems :ROFLMAO:. you've been on that boat ever since we first spoke, lol.
Well, we'll see.
 

jetflag

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One would expect a true "intellectual" to use clear and concise language and make their point, instead of hiding behind mumbo-jumbo and talking a lot without saying anything of substance. This is the problem people have with JP.
The problem people have with JP is mostly confirmation bias/ projection. His first big youtube interview to this is day is the best example of that. also. read any manifesto, political or ideological, and you'll find it to be a long swath of mumbo-jumbo especially the intro's. Karl Marx being a prime example. thats just the nature of the beast. JP is no exception in this.

In an ideal world, yes, your proposal would be correct. We're not there yet, and the rise of MGTOW MRA is concerning for the future of society.
They are and will remain a reaction to Feminism/Identity politics. thats what created it, and so thats is not going to solve it, nor any other form of identity politics based strategy, sex or skin based.

So if you are concerned with them being in your future society, you need an alternative strategy for them and one that doesn't generate more.

Jordan Peterson is well known as the gateway to alt-right content. It's him, then Ben Shapiro, then Joe Rogan and Musk, and finally Andrew Tate.
This has to be the most pervasive (left pushed) lie about the man. Wrong 😄 Jordan Peterson is the gateway OUT of the alt right or Incel culture. which is why both groups despise him.

Lets get our definitions straight here. The Alt-Right are Ethno nationalists/white supremacists. So people like Richard Spencer. What led to their rise was everybody doing identity politics and the game of who's is most oppressed, which they happily latched onto. Their shtick is something like "well if everybody is going to do identity politics, then so are we are we, the Whites, are going to win" They mostly listen to content like Millenial Woes, and vote for candidates endorsing said identity politics (who're more often then not Democrats, like Yang)

They don't like Jordan Peterson precisely because he's anti- identity politics, pro merrit.
They also don't like Ben Shapiro because 1 he's a Jew which this group doesn't like for obvious reasons and because he also, is ANTI- identity politics a
They don't like Elon Musk because he's anti- identity politics. and very much pro merrit/liberatarian. which means all of his companies are hired to the brim with "disgusting non-whites and women of privulige" at least according to the Alt-right and the Incels. etc.

and so on:

now they might be "well known" in the circles you reside in as the gateway to the alt-right, but its demonstrably not true and I think one big Cope-aganda from the left who'll do anything to paint him as whatever's most evil to them.
One thing I want to try is open up Youtube on an Incognito window, click on the latest Jordan Peterson video and then see how quickly I get Andrew Tate videos.
I don't see how JP has anything to say about Youtube's algorithm so i don't see how that ownace is on him 🤷‍♂️ but coo! we can compare 😄. from Vision from conservatives part 2 so far i've got Maggate Wade on how black lives truly matter, a motivational video on how to stop lying to yourself, Maajid Nawaz on nbc, A Swedish interview, and Kathy beeping Newman (ofcourse). What do you got?

I then for good measure youtubed Andrew Tate/Jordan peterson and i've got two video's in where Tate mocks Peterson for his prescribed clinical depression medication, and a reactionairy video where he quote: "Andrew has some words for Jordan and his Daughter Mikhaila"

Right.. not the bestest of buddies it seems.

Jordan Peterson, for his academic credentials and intellect, is used as the validation for MRA/incel/alt-right beliefs. "Hey, here's a smart guy saying the same things we have been saying."
No, he's is not, and no, he doesn't. 😄 MRA circles, Incels and Alt-right do not endorse, nor like, Jordan B Peterson and you can look this up yourself.

The man's hate mail, and that of people like Shapiro is roughtly 50/50 split between: "you hate women/ you're a nazi" from the left. and "you hate men/ are a jewish shill" from the incels/far right.

which is it going to be fellas? I can't be both at the same time. 😄
The dark corners of the internet that you're mentioning are alt-right, though.
White supremacist forums are Alt-right, Incel forums, with 50% minorities and men of colour are not. neither of which again endorse or like Jordan B Peterson and his content/ views.

Liberal/left-wing disagrees with misogyny. If the guys were liberal but then became jaded because women kept rejecting them, and then turned to alt-right incel/misogynistic sites, then they're no longer liberal. They've turned far right.
yup they have. They're not conservative anymore either. Keeps beggin the question: if this ideology that tells them they're worthless evil male scum and potentiall rapists and what has ultimatly léd them to this position. what gets them out of it?

I guess even true/proper conservatives don't want them. Example thread from r/IncelTear
Yup, nobody wants anything to do with them, which is why the problem will fester till the next terrorist strike and beyond.

Abortion is not child murder.
I didn't say it was. What I said was you could equally end up with a big federal government who thinks it is. and then you'd have what you falsely claim is happening now. namely a full abortion ban in the states, which I think we can all agree on is a terrible thing.

again>This is the eternal fallacy of thinking bigger government is going to solve the problem.
 
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dmgtz96

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I'll give you all except for:
So if you are concerned with them being in your future society, you need an alternative strategy for them and one that doesn't generate more.
The only somewhat practical solution I can see is: 1) paying teachers more, so we have actual quality educators, 2) recruiting more male teachers, so kids and teens that would become incels have someone to look up to instead of angry men online, 3) de-stigmatizing trade/blue-collar labor and reinstating blue collar careers as desirable since childhood, edit 4) making it absolutely clear that misogynistic/incel behavior will have serious consequences in life, including getting fired from their job and being jailed
An entire generation is screwed thanks to Andrew Tate, and we will deal with the fallout a decade from now, including multiple instances of sexual harassment from young early career professionals in the workplace (if they get hired at all) or more terrorist/misogynist attacks/femicides. The only way is to make sure boys grow up with healthy role models.
And, I guess, banning or regulating the Youtube/Tiktok algorithms that so easily drown people in alt-right content.
 
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I don't want to speak for the man but I can with 99% certainty say that Peterson himself is 100%% on board with most if not all of what you just wrote. He has infact argued those points.
 
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dmgtz96

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I don't see how JP has anything to say about Youtube's algorithm so i don't see how that ownace is on him 🤷‍♂️ but coo! we can compare 😄. from Vision from conservatives part 2 so far i've got Maggate Wade on how black lives truly matter, a motivational video on how to stop lying to yourself, Maajid Nawaz on nbc, A Swedish interview, and Kathy beeping Newman (ofcourse). What do you got?
Ok, let's do this.
1. JP's vision for conservatives, part 2. There's an ad for Ben Shapiro's "take the woke to school" Young America's Foundation. Most of the suggestions are JP, plus other miscellaneous unrelated videos. Nothing too out of the ordinary. Let's say I completely accept JP's advice about conservatives and want to continue watching more of this contest, so I go to Ben Shapiro.
2. Ben Shapiro's "Stunningly Idiotic: Shapiro takes the woke to school." Couple video suggestions by the Hoover institution. The first suggested video is "Leftist woman asks Shapiro if he's transphobic," so I go there.
3. Ben Shapiro's "Leftist woman asks Shapiro if he's transphobic." By this point, most of the video suggestions are all JP/Ben Shapiro. Let's click on the first video suggestion, which is actually an ad: "Shapiro hits the nail on the head: Gender Dysphoria."
4. Ben Shapiro's "Shapiro hits the nail on the head: Gender dysphoria is a mental illness." Still more JP/Ben Shapiro suggestions. Nothing to see here yet.
5. Jordan Peterson real time with Bill Maher video. Why should your freedom of speech trump a trans' persons right not to be offended? this guy (JP) is a twat but ok
6. Jordan Peterson DESTROYS Tom Ballard. In the video suggestions, the sixth video suggestion is "Nice guys finish last." This topic hasn't been suggested yet, but as a future neckbeard, anti-woke anti-feminist anti-trans misogynyst I click on this video.
7. Jordan Peterson: Why do nice guys nice finish last? Couple more video suggestions, not at the top but among the recommended videos: Stop being a nice guy! It's a really bad idea! - Jordan Peterson, Jordan Peterson: Why can't some men get women. The most problematic is probably "Stop being a nice guy or you will regret it" by Motivation Madness, which is the 4th video suggestion. Let's click on it.
8. "Stop being a nice guy or you will regret it" by Motivation Madness. The third video suggestion is "Man humbles room full of women" by Courtney Ryan. I'm a full-on misogynist at this point, so I go here. Quick and easy.
9. Courtney Ryan, "Man humbles room full of women." The video suggestions take me back to 8), so I go to the first video suggestion "THIS is why modern women are single," also by Courtney Ryan.
10. Jordan Peterson: Evolutionary psychologist shares how women select men," the second video suggestion from Courtney Ryan's video. First video suggestion: "Evolutionary psychologist explains why women fall for "bad boys."
11. Jordan Peterson, "Evolutionary psychologist explains why women fall for "bad boys." By this point a lot of video suggestions are about bad boys, dark triad personalities. Let's say I am exhausted of bad boys narrative, so I go for the first video suggestion, "Communications professor reacts to Jordan Peterson lecture & delivery skills." Most of the top video suggestions are relatively normal, but there's one "Jordan Peterson: women prefer men with ..."
12. "Jordan Peterson: women prefer men with ..." 4th video suggestion: Jordan Peterson: Women want/need real men not boys
13. Jordan Peterson: Women want/need real men not boys. 3rd video suggestion: "How women select men / Jordan Peterson." 3rd video suggestion: "Jordan Peterson: Women always reject these men"
14. "Jordan Peterson: Women always reject these men." 4th video suggestion: "What being an ALPHA MALE really means - Jordan Peterson" by Success Chasers
15. "What being an ALPHA MALE really means - Jordan Peterson" by Success Chasers. The moment you click on this you immediately get a bunch of Alpha Male content. Let's click on the first, "15 signs you're an alpha male" by Alux.com
16. "15 signs you're an alpha male." By this point we're deep within the alpha male bullshit.
 
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jetflag

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I’m going, for those reading, react to the above mentioned two fold later on.

1 I’m going to do the exact same thing with a random feminist icon and end up at precisely the same position.

2 disect individual points/ video’s mentioned and either/or ask for clarification (how /why does that auto translate to someone therefor being a twat in your playbook? Lol etc.)
 

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So I’m going to pick Laci green’s channel. We could go for say someone like Baumgartner but seen as Green Is, like Peterson, mostly famous for her youtubings, and a feminist youtuber I’m actually subscribed to, I think that’s a fair start.

Remember, the idea is to end up with something along the lines of alpha male behaviour motivational video’s, that allegedly lead to inceldom.

So off the cuff we already have a relevant one: 1# from Green is masculinity on the decline. commentary on some pop artist wearing a dress. Nothing too interesting here. David bowie beat him to it dunno how many years ago. Quite far up the youtube list is actually Petersons GQ interview, but seen as I’ve been duly informed that he’s a racistnaziwomenhatingelliotrogersenabler. I’m going to stay as far away from him as possible for the rest of this youtubescroll.

So, being a good male feminist, I’m going to go for CinemaKon’s “what does Drive Say about Masculinity”

2# : what does Drive say about masculinity: commentairy about the movie Drive from a feminist perspective etc. at number 10 in the list.
3# from that too number 2: BBCideas, The damage caused by toxic masculity well, we’re already at penis holders are toxic and bad territory 3 vids in at nr 10 in the suggestion list. Better find out more about this.
4# no2: What is toxic masculinity By Medical Centric.
5# no 6: Masculinity is not what you see on Tv, The Guardian.
6# no 2: Owen Jones goes to Corbyn’s activist training..er.. ok. So We’re veering off into socialist activism (somehow), but I want to know more about this horrible toxic man that I am so> moving on too no 20 in the mention list:.
7# no20: signs you’re in a toxic relationship by Anna Bey.
8# no2: Same youtuber: Signs He's A Low-Value Man (Get Out!)
9#Motivational video by someone called : Wise Thinker: 8 Signs of Low Value Man.

From which we quickly move on to: our designated territory: with nothing but motivational esq video’s in the list including alux.com like Male types Ranked, how to command respect if you’re quite, a Robert Green video, Alpha male behaviour here and there etc. etc. etc.

I think that qualifies: We’re in alpha male vid territory: beat you to it by about 7. Everybody scrolling on youtube for more then 20 minutes is a potential incel and a white supremacist,
 
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jetflag

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Now on to the actual meat of things.

first of: this made me laugh 😄 Jordan Peterson real time with Bill Maher video. Why should your freedom of speech trump a trans' persons right not to be offended? this guy (JP) is a twat but ok

like…how? That question wasn’t asked by Peterson or Maher even. This is what the aforementioned cathy newman trew at him and basically what make Peterson famous on youtube for his reponds to that. How does that make him a twat in your book? he got asked the question he's not the one making it up


Now onto the alpha male behaviour motivational video’s. which you’re clearly disgusted by (?) and under the presumption that they equate to “hating women” and leads to incels

These video’s are for the most part basically self help (something incels genuinly hate) chopped up vids with clickbait titles explaining which (demonstrable) behaviors and traits make you, as a man, potentially:

- more attractive as a partner for a women in general (so things like confidence, proper grooming, remaining calm instead of reactionairy, don’t be a pushover, responsibility. "going to the gym" etc. etc.)

- less actractive in general (self-loathing, avoiding behaviour, not taking care of yourself, no emotional control, locking yourself up in your moms basement playing videogames all day, "creepy one-liners " etc.)

1: how does that translate in your mind to Therefor, -> Woman hatred?

2: How is 101 evolutionairy psychology on male-female attraction “bullshit” according to you? What exactly is not true about it?
 
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Now on to the actual meat of things.

1: how does that translate in your mind to Therefor, -> Woman hatred?

2: How is 101 evolutionairy psychology on male-female attraction “bullshit” according to you? What exactly is not true about it?

That's precisely how alt-right/MRA types operate. They draw you in with "self-help," but then very quickly push their misogynistic bullshit to make cold hard cash.
 
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jetflag

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That's precisely how alt-right/MRA types operate. They draw you in with "self-help," but then very quickly push their misogynistic bullshit to make cold hard cash.
Jezus man 😄, you're all over the place. Who are you getting this extreme rethoric from?

So to try and steelman you: literal Nazi's/ White supremacists ánd Mens right Activistst (who're in your mind the same thing and caliber apparently?) make all these self-help video's on youtube so then can teach people who're watching them "misogynistic bullshit" ?

Ok: whát misogynistic bullshit precisely?

Also, there's still my second question: What, precisely about 101 evolutionairy psychology on male-female attraction is “bullshit” and/or "misogenistic" according to you? What exactly is not true/ that evil about it?

Honestly, and I don't mean this any sort of insult or jab or anything towards you, But you sound like you've ended up in a cult in the way you answer or non-answer.
 
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dmgtz96

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Jezus man 😄, you're all over the place. Who are you getting this extreme rethoric from?

So to try and steelman you: literal Nazi's/ White supremacists ánd Mens right Activistst (who're in your mind the same thing and caliber apparently?) make all these self-help video's on youtube so then can teach people who're watching them "misogynistic bullshit" ?

Ok: whát misogynistic bullshit precisely?

Honestly, and I don't mean this any sort of insult or jab or anything towards you, But you sound like you've ended up in a cult in the way you answer or non-answer.

I don't know enough about evo psych to answer your question, but what I will say is that Jordan Peterson's analogy with lobsters about social hierarchies in humans sounds like complete garbage.

Now, onto the other ones.

First off, the whole "alpha male" industry on Youtube and Tiktok is basically a cult. And yes, many (though not all) male self-help gurus are part of the alpha male industry/manosphere.

For your reading pleasure, how about this abstract from a master's thesis, Misogyny as Medication: The Red Pill, Self-Help, and Neoliberal Masculinity.

The Red Pill is a central tenet of many men’s identity communities online. Red Pill proponents claim that women are naturally manipulative and self-interested, and that feminism has given them social and political dominance over men. This paper explores how individual viewers make sense of Red Pill content, focusing on the role of self-help advice about dating, exercise, and confidence in proliferating its misogynistic gender ideology. Drawing on interviews with 18 current and former viewers of Red Pill content, I show how participants’ belief in the Red Pill was largely facilitated by a trust in its ability to be personally helpful to them. Additionally, I argue that the Red Pill’s self-help messaging carries embedded themes of individualism, rationalism, and self-discipline that are consistent with neoliberal formations of masculinity. This research contributes to an understanding of the relationship between individual viewers and the online proliferation of ideas about gender and society.

You don't need to point to a master's thesis to find out everything that the author is saying. You can just hang out in red pill/men's rights/other misogynistic subreddits and find that out by yourself. Plenty of men are in those spaces because they were initially drawn by the promise of self-help and getting laid, but the leaders of these movements eventually push misogynistic messages or just want a quick cash grab.
Guess what, that also extends to pseudo-intellectuals like Jordan Peterson who continually promotes anti-feminist messages.

Of course, not all MRA types are white men. I'm sure there are plenty of minority incels. If anything, the entire aznidentity subreddit is a cesspool of Asian-American male incels. So, the overlap between nazis, white supremacists, MRAs, and incels is not a single circle, but there's a significant overlap between the 4 groups.

edit: anyways, liking jordan peterson, andrew tate, or other anti-feminist dudes is a huge red flag in the States. Those are the people you and your female coworkers don't want to associate with or interact with
 

Gagi

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I can only attest that I'm extremely grateful I've found Jordan Peterson. Started with the Cathy Newman interview, and ended in me reading his book. I can honestly say he's one of the few people that made me better. I believe I've learned a lot, not just the from what he said, but also how to analyze things and think deeper and get to the root of the problem. This year was particularly difficult for me with multiple tragic events, yet I've managed to face them and thrive in spite of that - even though I haven't read or heard almost anything he wrote or said in the past ~2 years! I strongly believe he has made me a better person, by opening my mind to religion and making me a bit more compassionate to other people, putting aside all the personal growth.

I honestly find it puzzling how JP can be a gateway public intellectual to alt-right types or whatever the hell you guys are talking about. From his book, I only got personal growth. But then again, I am certainly older, and by extension wiser and smarter than the usual redditer. Maybe he is a public intellectual, but he's an intellectual nevertheless, and maybe some can't understand his message, or want to interpret it with prior judgement (either way).

It is partly his fault that he's getting such a reputation, by using slightly more aggressive language these days. That is probably because it is easier to get attention (and/or money) I have lost interest in what he has to say nowadays, but I do still believe in what I read in his book. Maybe that lobster theory is untrue, but it does serve well as an analogy regardless. I don't think we should dismiss that message because of it.

Another thing - I wouldn't gauge how a public intellectual affects the masses by looking at pimple-faced hormonal teens. Hormones run wild in these years, and don't tell me reddit, YouTube etc. aren't full of them. I was one, and I know my phases. Not to absolve him of responsibility of improving his message delivery, but also has to be said how others (who are not at his level and/or are biased) react isn't the best measurement.



My suggestion to @dmgtz96 - take a listen to his lectures from his teaching days. Or read the damn book. Try to do so with a clear mind. And tell me you disagree with the message.
 
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jetflag

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I don't know enough about evo psych to answer your question, but what I will say is that Jordan Peterson's analogy with lobsters about social hierarchies in humans sounds like complete garbage.
It might sound absurd but its actually fairly grounded (evolutionary) neurochemistry. You and I share the same serotonin reward-system which triggers or shuts down based on us moving up or down in relative status too our society/hierarchy. The chapter with that analogy serves as a demonstration to show that no..hierarchies are not "inventions" by society or the male psyche therein. They’re biologically, evolutionary very grounded, well studied/documented and so old that we share them with crustaceans. Which is why for instance human anti-depressants work equally well on lobsters.

Those who call this “bullshit” and try to discredit that, are very ideologically motivated to do so, and pretend to themselves and others that its not, because it, among which, means that human beings are not infinity malleable and mold-able via culture top down. which is (part of) I think nearly all feminist doctrine. its pretty much their core tenet.

First off, the whole "alpha male" industry on Youtube and Tiktok is basically a cult. And yes, many (though not all) male self-help gurus are part of the alpha male industry/manosphere.
well its certainly a profitable industry, (as demonstrated by both our youtube rabbitholes, but then again, so is any succesfull clickbait online, including feminist content) that fact, however, does not make "alpha-beta etc. male theory" false or untrue however. You just don't seem to like it, goes for the below part also, so i'm not going to re-itterate it there. but I will touch on:
For your reading pleasure, how about this abstract from a master's thesis, Misogyny as Medication: The Red Pill, Self-Help, and Neoliberal Masculinity.

briefly..

From the abstract alone you can discern that this author is an activist first and a "researcher" second, pushing an ideology. The methodology of (quite limited amount) interviews as a research method I find quite unreliable,rather sus and is a prime example of leading the evidence where you want it to go, rather then following the evidence where it leads.

Also notice the loaded language and leading sentences such as: "self-help advice about dating, exercise, and confidence in proliferating its misogynistic gender ideology" whilst at the same time viewing traits as individualism, rationalism, and self-discipline as neoliberal formations of masculinity. No surprise to me that this thesis has never been cited, and so i've just found out, written by an author who goes online by the name Letterfiftieen. A full blown feminist activist who's been doing it since 2012.

I thank you for the reading suggestion, but i'm a 100% confident i'm not going to find anything approaching truth on the matter there, this reeks of ideological-pamflet. not proper research.

pseudo-intellectuals like Jordan Petersonwho continually promotes anti-feminist messages.
yes, how dare he speak against the Church! 😄 I think is you, who's in a cult here, my man..

The only anti-feminist messages Peterson "promotes" are, like said and what i've seen from your previous examples, demonstrable, biological truths, in the face of (racidal) ideologically pushed un-truths. Which is why for instance he and liberal feminist icon Hoff Summers get along just fine.

And if you have a problem with that, as a man of science, then you have a problem with demonstrable, biological truths (among which), in favor of what you would like them to be, rather then what they are. 🤷‍♂️

Of course, not all MRA types are white men. I'm sure there are plenty of minority incels. If anything, the entire aznidentity subreddit is a cesspool of Asian-American male incels. So, the overlap between nazis, white supremacists, MRAs, and incels is not a single circle, but there's a significant overlap between the 4 groups.
Well sure, You can find overlap in anything. Even in say, Black Lives Matter and the Alt-right on an abstrack ideological level...

But there's nothing remotely accurate (or appropriate) in placing those two, or a father fighting for the right to see his children and a literal white supremacist who wants to kill al blacks and create an ethostate in the same basket.
edit: anyways, liking jordan peterson, andrew tate, or other anti-feminist dudes is a huge red flag in the States. Those are the people you and your female coworkers don't want to associate with or interact with
We've already way past debunking how this Tate guy and Peterson are in anyway similar or related. Even on youtube. And I also don't think you get to speak for "the States" from you specific neighboorhood m8. I think Peterson is overall more loved then hated there, and that includes female-coworkers.

But, you believe what you want to believe. 🙏 we're going around in circles again... And frankly far be it from me to try and get you ostracized with tar and feathers from your town/community for having an opposing view on the man.
 
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dmgtz96

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yes, how dare he speak against the Church! 😄 I think is you, who's in a cult here, my man..

The only anti-feminist messages Peterson "promotes" are, like said and what i've seen from your previous examples, demonstrable, biological truths, in the face of (racidal) ideologically pushed un-truths. Which is why for instance he and liberal feminist icon Hoff Summers get along just fine.

And if you have a problem with that, as a man of science, then you have a problem with demonstrable, biological truths (among which), in favor of what you would like them to be, rather then what they are. 🤷‍♂️
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Hoff Summers is not a feminist icon. She's actually anti-feminist and closer to far-right ideals from the likes of Milo. She opposes the gender wage gap, Title IX, supported Gamergate, and isn't fully on-board with abortion as a human right (instead, a "moral dilemma"). Her beliefs:
Sommers believes that not only do women favor fields like biology, psychology, and veterinary medicine over physics and mathematics, but that they also seek out more family-friendly careers. She has written that "the real problem most women scientists confront is the challenge of combining motherhood with a high-powered science career
are just like the manifesto which got James Damore fired from Google. There's a reason she is receiving praise from men's rights activists and is buddies with Jordan Peterson: because she is not a feminist. Author, philosopher with impressive academic credentials - sure. Feminist, heck no.

Personally, irl I wouldn't bad an eye if someone watched a couple videos of Jordan Peterson, especially from his pre-crazy era. I'd even give them some leeway if they read 12 Rules and got something out of it. That's a very easy rabbit hole to fall into, though, and someone who is an ardent follower of Jordan Peterson/Crowder/Shapiro/Andrew Tate (no, I won't separate them, to me all 4 of them are equals) would give me reeeeally weird vibes. And no, no one is going to tell you "you're a sexist misogynist" to your face, but you will notice people getting a weird vibe from you.
Unless they're just like you, in which case you're probably deep within the far right cult and don't give a shit.