Woke culture and its effects on society

[jetflag]

In responds to the disagreement between @Hensmon, @dmgtz96 and me in the religion/spirituality thread on the scale of the problem in relationship to woke culture and male suicide rates in the west particularly. Hereby a topic starter where we can continiue the broader discussion, concerning:

Woke culture (or 3e gen post modernist/marxist feminism, or however you want to call it)
Its impact on society or groups within society (both positive and the negative)
anything else related to said topic (such as its ideological foundation, why you like or dislike being woke, etc.)



I'll kick off in relation to the Suicide debate in the previous topic:


I'm off the (apparetly potentially racist fashist evil alt far right JP is redskull deplorable Heathen *insert negative affiliation or slur without factually debunking the argument here) opinion, that the (disparity) problem of (increasing) male suicide in the west, at least partially, can be contributed to a culture which, generally speaking:


- is present and/or rampant in institutions like: media, education, market ,and government and has been, from a less to an increasingly more degree present and influential for (multiple) decade(s) now

- Deconstructs or attempts to deconsruct, (all) existing structures, and that includes structures benificial for the (psychological ) functioning of males

- doesn't place or outright ignores rights and plights related to males in favour of females and minority groups.

- sees the west and particularly masculinity as a negative.

- doesn’t encourage, but berates/ shames (western) males conform its ideological standards.

- places unreasonable demands and/or expectations on said (western) males.



My reasons for thinking that are, aside from personal anekdote , Nutshelled, that suicidal behavior is aside from genetical aspects most often the result of:

-experiencing humiliation or shame,
-lack of support from family, community, or society,
-failure to meet (unreasonable) expectations or standards,
-environmental factors

(or a combination of those four) three of those boxes I think can be fairly ticked in a negative fashion when mirrored with said topic:

Hence, I think the rising spike as well as increasing disparity between male and female suicide in western countries can be in part assigned to (dominant) woke culture, and consider that to be a problem.

change my mind.

 

[Archon]

I do quite subscribe to JP's opinions, but really, we have to fact-check all of the statements (who kills themselves more often, are we seeing an increase in suicide, what's the most often used method etc.).

So first, I'd recommend everyone to look here: Suicide and play around with the charts.

There are links to (increased) unemployment/economic recession, mental illnesses (which is the highest risk factor for suicide), and even age (the older you are, the more likely you are to kill yourself), and yes, sex. Strangely enough, income inequality (Gini coefficient) doesn't seem to matter much, which surprised me.

It's a complicated topic and really can't be attributed solely to woke culture (because we have no data for it, so we can only speculate). Suicide rates have decreased all over since the 1990 as well.

One thing we can do is ask why do we get mental illnesses in the first place, that lead to suicide.

I think you or someone else made the point that males kill themselves more efficiently, because they usually choose violent methods (firearms, hanging, jumping from up high). Even among the homicide rates, males usually resort to more violent methods (such as the aforementioned), and women to less violent, such as poisoning etc. I do have no data for it right now, but I'd assume that's how women (try to) kill themselves as well - pills or something similar - which isn't instant, but leaves some time for intervention or a last-minute change of mind and call for help. Of course, I wouldn't strictly say there's such a large divide between sex and the methods they choose, but I believe it is noticeable and attributable to the different rates of suicide between sexes. And also, as someone has pointed out, maybe women know how to deal with emotions better, i.e. they want to talk it out, whereas men are more "stubborn" and self-centered, just decide on it and act it out. But we can't know all that without any concrete studies on those matters.

 

[jetflag]

It's a complicated topic and really can't be attributed solely to woke culture

Which is why I didn't, and atributed it as a partial contributing factor. I do consider it to be in case of the west (Europe specifically) an important one based on Woke culture's prevalence/influence geographically and the growing (dispoportionate) male too female ratio there as opposed to the disparity in other countries.

 

[jetflag]

so we can only speculate). Suicide rates have decreased all over since the 1990 as well.

I think you or someone else made the point that males kill themselves more efficiently, because they usually choose violent methods (firearms, hanging, jumping from up high). Even among the homicide rates, males usually resort to more violent methods (such as the aforementioned), and women to less violent, such as poisoning etc. I do have no data for it right now, but I'd assume that's how women (try to) kill themselves as well - pills or something similar - which isn't instant, but leaves some time for intervention or a last-minute change of mind and call for help. Of course, I wouldn't strictly say there's such a large divide between sex and the methods they choose, but I believe it is noticeable and attributable to the different rates of suicide between sexes. And also, as someone has pointed out, maybe women know how to deal with emotions better, i.e. they want to talk it out, whereas men are more "stubborn" and self-centered, just decide on it and act it out. But we can't know all that without any concrete studies on those matters.

correct, and I actually happen believe that to be a primairy reason for the disparity.

and fair enough, corrolation doens't neccesairy imply causation.. and no. We have no hard data on "wokeness" since its never been empirically researched on that topic in a sufficiently large pool concerning said topic (yet).

but we do know the general factors that seem to encourage suicide or suicidal thoughts from a phychological perspective. and though overall numbers seem to decrease world wide. given that the disparity is greater and growing western countries where (post) marxist structures and their (cultural, educational, political and market) influence (to be perfectly clear: I consider modern Woke culture to be an ideological family of post-marxism in terms of its axioms and goals) are a prevalent part of,have been part of said country for some time now. I don't think its an unreasonable assumption to make that wokeness isn't at the very best helping at at worse directly negativly impacts that statistic, given its caracteristics.

 

[Archon]

post-marxism

But can you explain what that is, briefly? Google isn't of much help, except if you're willing to read papers on it.

 

[jetflag]

There's traditional Marxist movements who focus on the differences in Class in society and tries to equalize them in terms of societal outcome.

And there's post Marxist movements who splits an individual up into more catagories such as Race, Sex, Sexual preference, Ethnicity etc. and tries to equalize their differences in terms of societal outcome.

Woke culture is originally primairly a 3e gen feminist (so, sex) movement, though it has adopted other catagories aswell recently.

Traditional marxist's enemies primaily where the captalist bourgoise, who needed to be brought down as to elevate the rest.

Post marxist's enemies primaily are the white-cis males, (with the emphasis on the latter, since thats the discussion we're having) who need to be brought down, as to elevate the rest.

 

[Magdelayna]

I kind of feel sorry for the people who were born into this modern social media age,theres so much pressure on them immediatly to 'be' a certain thing - it makes me feel privilaged that i grew up in a different era to just phones and the internet. Which brings me onto a subject im very interested in - apparently im part of a small group of people known as 'Xennials' who had an analog childhood and a digital adulthood. I think the small band of birth years is late 70's to mid 80's.

I havnt had kids yet,and maybe im glad i dont ant to bring any up in this age? Iam SO glad i spent my teen years without a mobile phone (i think i got my first at 19 years old in 2001).

All of my childhood i spent without the internet,i think i was 17 when we first got it on a desktop dial-up modem.

Basically all it was for me as kid was VHS,4 channels on TV,Videogames and a Phone Landline. And as i said,im so glad i grew up in that era...youve experienced something different other than this constant barrage of social media - its a very big discussion imo,i could think about it for hours hehe!!

 

[Archon]

There's traditional Marxist movements who focus on the differences in Class in society and tries to equalize them in terms of outcome.

And there's post Marxist movements who splits an individual up into more catagories such as Race, Sex, Sexual preference, Ethnicity etc. and tries to equalize their differences in terms of outcome.

Woke culture is originally primairly a 3e gen feminist (so, sex) movement, though it has adopted other catagories aswell recently.

Traditional marxist's enemies primaily where the captalist bourgoise, who needed to be brought down as to elevate the rest.

Post marxist's enemies primaily are the white-cis males, who need to be brought down, as to elevate the rest.

Ah, it's much clearer now (never associated that with PM, although JP talks about that situation all the time). I don't know, if you are looking at the woke culture and its impact on suicide rates, you mean primarily that of white men then? More specifically, white men in the West?

 

[Magdelayna]

Has there always been a lot of suicides throughout the decades? Because we are only just hearing about some celebrity ones through social media the last few years - it makes me wonder how many 'normal' people who take their own lives,that you dont hear about! Of course they wont be reported....

 

[jetflag]

Ah, it's much clearer now (never associated that with PM, although JP talks about that situation all the time). I don't know, if you are looking at the woke culture and its impact on suicide rates, you mean primarily that of white men then?

more accuratly western men, or men living in western countries more specifically. they don't have to be white, white cis men are just the largest demographic and as such the highest on the (woke) target list since the end goal is a perfect equal outcome, but certainly not the only one...recently we've seen that bright as day with the racial #uncletim trending on twitter..so..

Some context for new readers: in the pre starter topic on religousity and spirituality that created this whole topic. User @Meh mentioned western male suicide rates, their disporportion and their increase. and suggested it was High rise that caused it.

Which I though to less likely as opposed to

- Sex based kill-efficiency, which we've discussed and
- it not being helpfull that there's a (i would argue dominant) culture in major institutes, which is, as part of its equaliizing doctrine constantly demonizes young (western) men,

to which user @Hensmon thought that was dumb and wrong and insignificant, and that other factors where more important and wondered why I'd pick that and though the argument that religiousity was indecline, was a much stronger one.

to which @dmgtz96 argued that he'd seen it on * EDIT Incel, MRA, Red Pill, pick up artist kind of sites, not 4chan and therefor its not true.

to which I disagreed with both of them and started this topic, as I didn't want to further polute that thread..


so: that out of the way

One of the things I didn't get into was hensmon's follow op comment regarding religiousity decline

quote:

I think the argument made that religion provides a community, purpose and life framework is actually very strong (even if you don't want to be orthodox or heavy practicer). You could argue that the collapse of religious institutions and uptake in the west over the last few decades is a big contributor to people feeling lost or alone.

I agree. which adds to the list of reasons on why I think a culture, who's since its inception and before that even has been constantly (attempting) to break down/deconstructing precisely things like “traditional” religions, traditional (family) values accompanying (moral) frameworks etc....isn't very helpfull, when considering western male suicide, and a problem. Especially since, it seems to me at least, its not able to fill that void religiousity leaves behind with something better or even workable.

 

[jetflag]

Has there always been a lot of suicides throughout the decades? Because we are only just hearing about some celebrity ones through social media the last few years - it makes me wonder how many 'normal' people who take their own lives,that you dont hear about! Of course they wont be reported....

Could be: we don't know, we don't have the numbers.

I would argue that in past times depression was less prevalent (since there wasn't, at least that we know of) a crisis of meaning that we're seeing today and 2, a fear of (in most countries at least) Eternal torture if you followed up on it.

then again, it might very well have still happened and people just didn't talk about it.

 

[dmgtz96]

to which @dmgtz96 argued that he'd seen it on 4chan and therefor its not true.

Incel, MRA, Red Pill, pick up artist kind of sites, not 4chan
Doesn't matter to me much if JP has the same opinion as them even if he's not far/alt-right. I'm just saying you mainly see this rhetoric pushed in sites like the ones I mentioned.
edit: In the original thread I did say that I *only* saw this from alt-right/far-right authors. I stand corrected, JP is neither of those. That being said, by and large you mainly hear the woke culture/feminism reason in those kind of sites.

 

[jetflag]

Incel, MRA, Red Pill, pick up artist kind of sites, not 4chan

I stand, (and have) corrected.

 

[dmgtz96]

I stand, (and have) corrected.

Same. JP is not alt-right or far-right (he could be apolitical), and in the original thread I did say I only saw this rhetoric from far-right/alt-right authors
edit: I'm like deeply unqualified to talk about the issues facing white cis men in Europe, hah. I'm a bit more familiar with the rising suicides in the USA, though.

 

[Archon]

So that means I was looking at the wrong data. For the life of me I can't find data on suicides per race/ethnicity in the US for a larger period of time, except for a period of around ~10 years (which isn't much): Racial and Ethnic Disparities | Suicide Prevention Resource Center (note that suicides for Native Americans and Hawaiians are estimated)

Also, to bring my point home about the difference in means of suicide, here's this: Means of Suicide | Suicide Prevention Resource Center

I would recommend checking this website out for data. US is a good representative for what we are talking about here, since it's most affected by the woke culture. Also, it seems that the USA is one of the few countries where suicide is on the rise, so to speak.

 

[Archon]

Same. JP is not alt-right or far-right (he could be apolitical), and in the original thread I did say I only saw this rhetoric from far-right/alt-right authors
edit: I'm like deeply unqualified to talk about the issues facing white cis men in Europe, hah. I'm a bit more familiar with the rising suicides in the USA, though.

JP is classical British liberal and also a traditionalist, in his own words. Certainly not too far on either side of the spectrum. He thinks ill of both far-right and far-left, but given that far/alt-leftists are on the rise in the US, he chose to speak out against it. He is against any form of ideology, be it related to class, sex or even race.

 

[jetflag]

@dmgtz96 warning on top of that also duely noted as a potential information hazard, (I rarely if ever visit said sites): (And if I in the extremely cosmicaly unlikely event ever turn fash I expect you guys to pull me out of it (or perma ban me, you hereby have my consent).

@Gagi nice find: but why would you want to do that though? i mean kudos on the research but i already explained that afiac it affects western men or men from western countries. regardless of their specific ethnicity.

what might be a potential avenue for research is the manner in which ideology or alienation by said ideology impacts general levels of self esteem and as such consequently a potential trigger depression/suicide. (Thought i think that to be a fairly mundaine claim to be made without scientific papers, but still. )

 

[dmgtz96]

@dmgtz96 warning on top of that also duely noted as a potential information hazard, (I rarely if ever visit said sites): (And if I in the extremely cosmicaly unlikely event ever turn fash I expect you guys to pull me out of it (or perma ban me, you hereby have my consent).

Yeah, I think I'm going to hold off on this topic after my comment.
I'm still not fully convinced that woke culture is a large driver for male suicide. There's something else going on. Food for thought: most "wokes" are in college campuses and urban areas, but what if a large proportion of male suicides occurred in rural areas? Or, what if the largest increase in male suicides occurred in rural areas?
Some stats from the US CDC:

The rural male suicide rate was 3.8 times higher than the female rate in 2018, and the urban male suicide rate was 3.6 times higher than the female rate. The rural male suicide rate increased 34% from 2007 through 2018 compared with a 17% urban rate increase. The rural female suicide rate nearly doubled from 2000 through 2018 compared with a 51% urban rate increase.

I cannot claim that I am familiar with rural environments. However, I would be surprised if the stereotypical rugged, individualistic, self-reliant rural man cared about the opinion of wokes. That being said, those stats are not specific to white cis men, and only distinguish between overall men and women. You would have to look at the demographics of the rural regions to figure out who is suffering the most.

It feels a bit weird typing this, so yeah I'm peacing out. Hopefully you all can have a constructive argument and reach a conclusion.

 

[Archon]

what might be a potential avenue for research is the manner in which ideology or alienation by said ideology impacts general levels of self esteem and as such consequently a potential trigger depression/suicide. (Thought i think that to be a fairly mundaine claim to be made without scientific papers, but still. )

Well you just can't reliably know that, or differentiate between ideologies and the rise of social media and all that comes with it etc. regarding reasons for suicide. It's a complex problem that is very hard to research, especially because the participants are (mostly) dead. Does woke culture contribute? Well, to a person who's willing to kill themselves, I imagine everything is an insurmountable problem, but I don't see a woke culture as a deciding factor, especially not a trigger.

That aside, I do think it affects younger people more, primarily because they have stronger emotional reactions to everything and tend to blow things out of proportion. With that in mind, the younger population doesn't have high suicide rates compared to other age groups (but tends to be scarier because they are just kids).

 

[jetflag]

Well you just can't reliably know that, or differentiate between ideologies and the rise of social media and all that comes with it etc. regarding reasons for suicide. It's a complex problem that is very hard to research, especially because the participants are (mostly) dead. Does woke culture contribute? Well, to a person who's willing to kill themselves, I imagine everything is an insurmountable problem, but I don't see a woke culture as a deciding factor, especially not a trigger.

no, you obviously can't ask a dead person if it was the SJW on twitter that self-killed him, thats not what I suggested or have suggested..

I think we can move from a baseline assumption that the levels of depression/axiety coïncide with level of suicide (attempts).



so the question, or potential fields of research then potentially becomes:


-how well, in this case men, react on an neurological level to unreasonable or impossible standards by (x) society or group, in and/or out (as opposed to women)
-how well, in this case men, react to (imposed) feelings of resentment and guilt (as opposed to women) place upon them by and in and/or out group.
-how alienation or isolation by x society or group, in and/or out impacts men vs women (i reccon the psychological litterature on prisons might be of help here)
-to what degree the oppinion of larger society vs one's ingroup affects an individual's self esteem

etc.

I think its a bit quick to presume "well we just can't know.."


Edit:

I did find one article from 1994 that at least explores the sociological factors of religion and feminism to support Hensmons position that a decline in religiousity might be the driving factor (it doesn't say what form of feminism specifically though. just the general term) and how they relate to suicidal behavior for both men and women.

unfortunatly I only have the abstract as its an academic subscription journal, so if we have any people here still in Uni who could login/check into it and its conclusions that be cool.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1386598?seq=1