Woke culture and its effects on society

[Jetflag]

Rant

k. what on earth does that have to with Woke culture and its affects on society, namely male suicide?

 

[Meh]

Don't really know where to begin with this one. I get frustrated with both the woke and the anti-woke, in fact the whole discussion, debate and over analysis of the issue frustrates me, it's like a soap opera. The left show stupidity and painful naivety and the right indulge themselves in tribalism, reductionism and conspiracy, whilst offering nothing in return to real problems. What's worse is that it's all taking place inside the Twitter and Youtube bubble, which is not reflective of the world and the majority of people's views. The dying mainstream media latch onto it because its simple, emotive and tribalistic in nature and it drives engagement more than anything, which shapes the discussion further, a cycle that intensifies. It's a false representation of reality. It's shaping public discourse and thinking space via extreme minority views which now serve as anchoring points for the various perspectives, it's self perpetuating

It's why I have a hard time with your choice of wokeness as the focus for depression and suicide. The topic feels so manufactured to me, very sensationalized, artificial. How come you feel this deserves the emphasis when compared to other reasons? Expectations is definitely a valid reason people get depressed, but why not the burden of expectations in the context of careers, goals, family, friends, self-imposed, relationships, even our dreams? And how does the burden of expectations compare to things like substance abuse, lack of jobs/purpose, lack of connection to our environment, lack of human relationships, nutritional deficiencies, gut health, economic hardships, pollutants in our airs and water, exposure to violent content, pornography, social media etc. Many of these are all well studied and substantiated.

A recent example would be the study which attributed 745,194 deaths to over working. Job expectations? Corporate exploitation? Work over health?

The reason why many are antiwork is because it doesn't suite their individual needs. This is why the internet was invented but the problem with the internet is that it's a thing of fiction

 

[Jetflag]

and the reason why so few are is because it suits theirs.

The reason so many are anti woke is the same reason why people en mass dislike preachy vegans or jehova's witnesses coming to your door telling you repend before the end of days.

Guilt tripping people for "crimes" they didn't commit such as: being born with the wrong skin color/sex, A set of omnivore teeth and "original sin" is an immoral act in the same way that locking someone up for just for being Black is,

All that aside, wether you're onboard with Woke or not. is seperated from the discussion on how a certain culture impacts depression/suicide amongst its archetypical "undesireables"

 

[Meh]

...

 

[Hensmon]

@jetflag

I went to catholic school and was taught by nuns, taught the Bible and importantly that eternal hell awaits me if I were to act out basic human behaviors such as masterbation, stealing, sex before marriage or if I did not subscribe to the belief system. That’s real pressure. All other identities outside of the christian one were ‘wrong’ and if happened to be gay I would also be cast from the ideology. Talk about oppressive identity politics. I would see religion not just in school, but on the TV, the media, billboards, friends/family discussion. Yet despite the bearings of that ideology being so prominent in my younger years I found a way to handle those pressures, come up with my own beliefs, and fought, stole and fapped my way through adolescent life. The trend is to reject powerful religious ideologies in the west for decades now, so why now believe that men are too submissive and susceptible to dismiss bus stop signs or transgender sub plots on Netflix?

 

[dmgtz96]

@jetflag

The trend is to reject powerful religious ideologies in the west for decades now, so why now believe that men are too submissive and susceptible to dismiss bus stop signs or transgender sub plots on Netflix?

Because men by and large have grown weaker, especially the ones that lurk online (this is ironic coming from someone who's posting on a forum, lmao). A lot of the super triggered dudes belong on r/FragileWhiteRedditor* and are basically this person. This is what @jetflag meant by:

now imagen the following: you’re a, in this case western, male who’s (genetically) prone to depression. (we’re not talking about the well balanced stoïc strong farmer here)

And there’s X culture dominant in all those aspects of the society you live in and you’re confronted with that:

- 2 minutes after you wake up and you walk in to your living room with your mom listening or watching to the BBC,
- then at the bus stop where a advert reminds you that “you need to do better”
- then at your uni,
- then later at work,
- then later back home where you want to engage in some well needed escapism in the form of a movie or a videogame.

Yeah, imagine what minorities had to endure in the past.

For what it's worth, it's never okay to be racist against anyone. Screw the psychiatrist who guest lectured at Yale and fantasized of shooting white people. And screw those who want to blame others for things that happened well in the past.


*This is satire.

 

[Jetflag]

@jetflag

I went to catholic school and was taught by nuns, taught the Bible and importantly that eternal hell awaits me if I were to act out basic human behaviors such as masterbation, stealing, sex before marriage or if I did not subscribe to the belief system. That’s real pressure. All other identities outside of the christian one were ‘wrong’ and if happened to be gay I would also be cast from the ideology. Talk about oppressive identity politics. I would see religion not just in school, but on the TV, the media, billboards, friends/family discussion. Yet despite the bearings of that ideology being so prominent in my younger years I found a way to handle those pressures, come up with my own beliefs, and fought, stole and fapped my way through adolescent life. The trend is to reject powerful religious ideologies in the west for decades now, so why now believe that men are too submissive and susceptible to dismiss bus stop signs or transgender sub plots on Netflix?

we've agreed on how placing unreasonable expectations on a (male) individual, so basically something he can't live up to no matter how hard he works/tries. Is a valid cause for depression with a secundairy consequence being suicide. Suicide numbers also seem to peak in communities involving higher then average degrees of indoctrination and/or said pressure.

I also agree with you that both doctrines/ideologies are (or at least used to be in the case of catholocism) omni-present in virtually all aspects society.

So as to why do I think he rise of woke culture specifically impacts male suicide more negatively then your aforementioned Catholic school?

well there's two key differences:

1: Catholic doctrine does not single out a group based on their born with sex and skin caractristics.. All humans are born equally sinfull, instead of it just being the cis-white males who're born with it. So increased exclusion/ exclusivity on certain caracteristics you, as a cis-white-normative-oppressor have no control over.

2: the key difference you menioned at the start and one that I referenced in a link earlier. The Effects of Religion and Feminism on Suicide Ideology: An Analysis of National Survey Data on JSTOR

Catholic doctrine threatens you with the eternal hell fire if you proceed with your suicide. It is basically a massive anti-suicide carrot on a stick.

Woke doctrine does not. there is no edict in woke culture that sais, If you kill yourself evil cis-white male, you will burn in fem hell forever, so don't do it, you must repend in life. Nor is there something like a Woke-Hell that you can be scared of. (being cancelled is the closest you can get, and its a defacto limbo you can crawl out of if you repend hard enough) In fact I would argue that woke culture as a phenomenon defacto encourages or at the very least tries to normalize euthenasia/ suicide. As opposed to religious doctrine.

 

[Jetflag]

Yeah, imagine what minorities had to endure in the past.

appriciated, now would it be too much to ask to refrain from throwing any more red herrings under the bus please? there's enough informal fallacies to content with one user pulling a Meh ever so often in this tread.

this discussion is about woke culture, its (potential) effects on society, particulary male suicide. (which I don't even consider to be exclusivly pale skin toned)

 

[Sleepy Robot]

Don't really know where to begin with this one. I get frustrated with both the woke and the anti-woke, in fact the whole discussion, debate and over analysis of the issue frustrates me, it's like a soap opera. The left show stupidity and painful naivety and the right indulge themselves in tribalism, reductionism and conspiracy, whilst offering nothing in return to real problems. What's worse is that it's all taking place inside the Twitter and Youtube bubble, which is not reflective of the world and the majority of people's views. The dying mainstream media latch onto it because its simple, emotive and tribalistic in nature and it drives engagement more than anything, which shapes the discussion further, a cycle that intensifies. It's a false representation of reality. It's shaping public discourse and thinking space via extreme minority views which now serve as anchoring points for the various perspectives, it's self perpetuating

It's why I have a hard time with your choice of wokeness as the focus for depression and suicide. The topic feels so manufactured to me, very sensationalized, artificial. How come you feel this deserves the emphasis when compared to other reasons? Expectations is definitely a valid reason people get depressed, but why not the burden of expectations in the context of careers, goals, family, friends, self-imposed, relationships, even our dreams? And how does the burden of expectations compare to things like substance abuse, lack of jobs/purpose, lack of connection to our environment, lack of human relationships, nutritional deficiencies, gut health, economic hardships, pollutants in our airs and water, exposure to violent content, pornography, social media etc. Many of these are all well studied and substantiated.

A recent example would be the study which attributed 745,194 deaths to over working. Job expectations? Corporate exploitation? Work over health?

Agreeing with Hensmon here.

I'm sorry but this topic reads a bit like (white) men crying over not being in total control of society anymore and losing ground to other humans/groups. And then looking for others but themselves to place the blame.

I personally don't understand why being aware of the bigger challenges of society on things like equality is perceived as something bad and negative.

 

[Jetflag]

Agreeing with Hensmon here.

I'm sorry but this topic reads a bit like (white) men crying over not being in total control of society anymore and losing ground to other humans/groups. And then looking for others but themselves to place the blame.

I personally don't understand why being aware of the bigger challenges of society on things like equality is perceived as something bad and negative.

A rise and rising disproportion in male suicide is them just crying...interresting.

It sounds like you have a lot of contempt for them, believe they are the exclusive and eternal opressor/controllers of the whole world and those below them and are now getting what they justly deserve, ...and so much the better for "noble goal" of equality of outcome. Everything and all should be equal, except for (white) males and their mental health problems/suicide apparantly. Those can remain disporortial, mockable and dismissable.

correct me if i'm wrong but that is how your comment reads.

and sufficed to say I genuinly find such a (frankly woke) stance on this utterly reprehensible, inhumane, immoral and frankly hypocritical. Replace the term "white men" in your comment with any other subgroup, and you'll see the problem.

Question:

if "equality" is such an amazing virtue and challence for society as you claim (which I don't think it is as being a diametrical opposite to fairness and freedom whom I do think are virtuous and compatible with the human species), shouldn't you logically be concerned with equalizing the suicide rates between the sexes?

 

[dmgtz96]

appriciated, now would it be too much to ask to refrain from throwing any more red herrings under the bus please? there's enough informal fallacies to content with one user pulling a Meh ever so often in this tread.

this discussion is about woke culture, its (potential) effects on society, particulary male suicide. (which I don't even consider to be exclusivly pale skin toned)

The moment you mentioned this you broadened the discussion from western white men to minorities:

Woke culture is dominant in Universities:
-Anywhere from the humanities (which have been totally subverted), Philosophy, where for instance thinkers like Ayn rand are actively shunned from the curriculum for ideological reasons. STEM fields, where the aforementioned government affirmative action is being pushed in the admission of students, all the way down to woke student protest groups who’re over representative on campus as opposed to those more classical liberal/conservative oriented. And anything in the universities now (or 30 years ago!) , follows irl 5 years later.

Woke culture is dominant in the work place. Especially in larger companies.
- Ranging anywhere from virtually any Big tech to Big 4 who go out of their way to virtue signal how lgbtq+ they are. To preferential hiring of minorities, to termination of contracts who’s idea’s aren’t “woke” enough. (which nearly happened to my wife)

 

[Sleepy Robot]

A rise and rising disproportion in male suicide is them just crying...interresting.

It sounds like you have a lot of contempt for them, believe they are the exclusive and eternal opressor/controllers of the whole world and those below them and are now getting what they justly deserve, ...and so much the better for "noble goal" of equality of outcome. Everything and all should be equal, except for (white) males and their mental health problems/suicide apparantly. Those can remain disporortial, mockable and dismissable.

correct me if i'm wrong but that is how your comment reads.

and sufficed to say I genuinly find such a (frankly woke) stance on this utterly reprehensible, inhumane, immoral and frankly hypocritical. Replace the term "white men" in your comment with any other subgroup, and you'll see the problem.

Question:

if "equality" is such an amazing virtue and challence for society as you claim (which I don't think it is as being a diametrical opposite to fairness and freedom whom I do think are virtuous and compatible with the human species), shouldn't you logically be concerned with equalizing the suicide rates between the sexes?

I think you reading it wrong. You are the one apparently more concerned with (white) males mental health problems . Where were they when all the other groups had these kind of problems?
I do not think that anyone's (attempted) suicide is mockable or dismissable and they all deserves our attention in trying to prevent them.

I think most white males just do not understand how privileged they actually are as a group compared to (white) woman and all other minorities (note: privileged does not mean without challenges).

 

[Jetflag]

You are the one apparently more concerned with (white) males mental health problems . Where were they when all the other groups had these kind of problems?

right. so they deserve it then? its poetic justice or?

The initial definition I used was western males, So males residing in western countries where this particular culture is rapant and omni-present. The reason you come across the term white around this thread so much is because that skin-tone male demographic seems to be the one primairy focused/ first on the chopping block by woke culture for dehuminization as ranked by their alleged privilege. Which is precisey what you've demonstrated (in two reactions now.)

But that even aside.

why does it need to be another group perse? Most of us are western (white) males including me. .So yes, the topic does concerns me, my 10 month old son (who's going to grow up in a world shaped by this codswallop), direct male families relatives and most of my friends.

is it allowed to discuss problems of human subgroups who's place in your arbitrairy oppression-hierarchy isn't highest? or do I need to repend for my externally imposed "original sin" of having priveleged first ?

And while I do not accept the (what I would call marxist misconception) premise of externally assigned group-privilege by arbitrairy caracteristics, I will say that I laughably reject the idea that western/ white women especially, have allegedly less privilege then my or our demographic does..

Western women are the demographic least likely to be murdered, least likely to be drafted/ die in wars, least likely to die in the work place, least likely to be imprisoned, least likely to be astranged from their kids in a divorce and,relevant to this topic, die in suicide in all of geography and history. There' is no crime on Earth, rape being the only exception, which affects them more then their male counter demographic...

so I reject the concept outright, but if we're going to arbritrairly designate statistics by which we can subtract and assign levels of subjective privilege, i'm very much game, even though I count my mom, sister and wife among them.. when it comes to the western white women of this world.


also. you haven't answered my question.

The moment you mentioned this you broadened the discussion from western white men to minorities:

I don't see how based on the fact that I mentioned the word in a washlist list of institutions and policies that demonstrate how far this has seeped into western culture/society (as opposed to Hensmon's claim of it "just being in university campusses" ) is therefor auto-broading the discussion of woke culture on western male depression/suicide to what happened to minorities in the past..

I also mentioned STEM fields, that doesn't mean the discussion is therefor broadened to include Math problems..

But even if it did. yes I agree. minorities had to endure a lot in the past. Now how do we go forward?

Do you think preferential treatment based on skintone is therefor a good solution? or that a culture that continuously insist that they're the historic victim of (superior) white overlords is going to do them any favors or advance their lives positively? because I highly doubt it. And I can give you a very recent example of that in the wake of George Floyd movement of why I doubt that.

 

[dmgtz96]

right. so they deserve it then? its poetic justice or?

No, no one is saying that western white men deserve the backlash that you now see.

I don't see how based on the fact that I mentioned the word in a washlist list of institutions and policies that demonstrate how far this has seeped into western culture/society (as opposed to Hensmon's claim of it "just being in university campusses" ) is therefor auto-broading the discussion of woke culture on western male depression/suicide to what happened to minorities in the past..

I also mentioned STEM fields, that doesn't mean the discussion is therefor broadened to include Math problems..

But even if it did. yes I agree. minorities had to endure a lot in the past.

Fair enough. We agree on this point.

Now how do we go forward?

Do you think preferential treatment based on skintone is therefor a good solution? or that a culture that continuously insist that they're the historic victim of (superior) white overlords is going to do them any favors or advance their lives positively? because I highly doubt it. And I can give you a very recent example of that in the wake of George Floyd movement of why I doubt that.

No, and no. In the US, a lot of the minorities at top universities are students who attended top high schools and who are already from a high socioeconomic status. These students are given an unfair advantage vs. white/Asian applicants who might be from lower socioeconomic backgrounds (ex. a poor white student from rural Appalachia).
I also don't think the victimization is helpful. There is only so much you can do for those that don't want to help themselves.

Hiring is a bit different. For new graduates, it depends a lot on which college you attended. At your school's career fair, you are competing for slots against other students from your school, so your race/skin tone is not a factor. In engineering there are specialized recruiting pipelines for minorities through conferences (SHPE, NSBE), but companies still generally look for someone who is a good fit and who is qualified for the job. They won't hire someone who can't do the job or who would be awful to work with just because they're a minority.
Once you have a few years of experience, your race/skin tone stops being a factor; it's all about your network and what you can offer to the company.

That is true for engineering. No clue how things are like in law, accounting, banking, or whatever. At least in engineering, I doubt a white applicant is getting turned down for a minority hire just because of skin tone. There's a lot more to it.

 

[Jetflag]

No, no one is saying that western white men deserve the backlash that you now see.

There's definitely a deep element of resentment present in for instance phrases like:

"where where the white men then"
"most white males just do not understand how privileged they actually are"
"(white) men crying over not being in total control of society anymore and losing ground to other humans/groups. And then looking for others but themselves to place the blame."

and wouldn't it follow that, (for the people and their human sense of justification who relate to woke cultures edicts like privilege) that "the eternal oppressor" deserves punishment some way or another? We've seen where this mode of thinking/ similar ideologies lead when you take for instance the bourgeois during the Bolshevik revolution.

same Architype: difference being class versus race.

That is true for engineering. No clue how things are like in law, accounting, banking, or whatever. At least in engineering, I doubt a white applicant is getting turned down for a minority hire just because of skin tone. There's a lot more to it.

I'm not sure what particular field they where in, but as an example, Harvard is currently being sued for discrimination by a group of Asian americans as it favor certian races, as opposed to impartial test scores, due too quote Harvard President Lawrence Bacow: ""The consideration of race, alongside many other factors, helps us achieve our goal of creating a diverse student body that enriches the education of every student."" Its moving up to the supreme court pending 2022.

 

[Archon]

@jetflag are you Jordan Peterson by any chance?

I see your views align quite well with some of his (and mine).

 

[dmgtz96]

There's definitely a deep element of resentment present in for instance phrases like:

"where where the white men then"
"most white males just do not understand how privileged they actually are"
"(white) men crying over not being in total control of society anymore and losing ground to other humans/groups. And then looking for others but themselves to place the blame."

and wouldn't it follow that, (for the people and their human sense of justification who relate to woke cultures edicts like privilege) that "the eternal oppressor" deserves punishment some way or another? We've seen where this mode of thinking/ similar ideologies lead when you take for instance the bourgeois during the Bolshevik revolution.

You're overthinking it.

I'm not sure what particular field they where in, but as an example, Harvard is currently being sued for discrimination by a group of Asian americans as it favor certian races, as opposed to impartial test scores, due too quote Harvard President Lawrence Bacow: ""The consideration of race, alongside many other factors, helps us achieve our goal of creating a diverse student body that enriches the education of every student."" Its moving up to the supreme court pending 2022.

Yeah, that's been going on for a while. Harvard admissions at the undergraduate level are for the university as a whole, so the field doesn't really matter. It is true that Asian-American applicants to elite US universities have to score much higher on the SAT/ACT exams compared to white or Black/Latino applicants. Admissions officers at those schools also penalize Asian-American applicants that have "cookie-cutter" profiles: very high test scores, interest in STEM majors, and plays an instrument (usually piano or violin) well. The truth is a bit more nuanced.
If you want to read more about a similar case, look up Fisher v. University of Texas (2016). The first case started when I was in high school, but that one hit harder because the University is publicly funded and cannot abuse affirmative action as much as private universities.

Affirmative action affects much more for college and professional school admissions. When it comes to hiring, it's much less of a factor.

 

[Jetflag]

@jetflag are you Jordan Peterson by any chance?

I see your views align quite well with some of his (and mine).

damn you figured me out buckoo.

no i'm not, but I will say that concering the topic of woke culture in particular me and him are probably in full agreement,

I disagree with the man on other issues though such as politics, meditation etc. but he's in my top 5 influential thinkers of the last couple of years

 

[Jetflag]

You're overthinking it.

no, you're underestimating it.

again. replace "white men" with for instance "the jew" or "the bourgeois" and you'll see the problem.

I skimmed over it initially but I just read the link you gave of the psych giving a lecture on how she and her patients have dreams of killing white males. thats where we are now apparently. wild. good to see that at the very least got a healthy dose of backlash.

Yeah, that's been going on for a while. Harvard admissions at the undergraduate level are for the university as a whole, so the field doesn't really matter. It is true that Asian-American applicants to elite US universities have to score much higher on the SAT/ACT exams compared to white or Black/Latino applicants. Admissions officers at those schools also penalize Asian-American applicants that have "cookie-cutter" profiles: very high test scores, interest in STEM majors, and plays an instrument (usually piano or violin) well. The truth is a bit more nuanced.
If you want to read more about a similar case, look up Fisher v. University of Texas (2016). The first case started when I was in high school, but that one hit harder because the University is publicly funded and cannot abuse affirmative action as much as private universities.

Affirmative action affects much more for college and professional school admissions. When it comes to hiring, it's much less of a factor.

I don't know the precise stats on that but i'll take your word for it non the less. i'll check out the texas courtcase. Its important to remember though that whatever happens in colleges/uni's bleeds through to society half a decade or so after.

I might have asked you this previously but what (college) field where you in again? Stem or Law or?

 

[dmgtz96]

I might have asked you this previously but what (college) field where you in again? Stem or Law or?

STEM