Woke culture and its effects on society

jetflag

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Yeah, I think I'm going to hold off on this topic after my comment.
I'm still not fully convinced that woke culture is a large driver for male suicide. There's something else going on. Food for thought: most "wokes" are in college campuses and urban areas, but what if a large proportion of male suicides occurred in rural areas? Or, what if the largest increase in male suicides occurred in rural areas?
Some stats from the US CDC:



I cannot claim that I am familiar with rural environments. However, I would be surprised if the stereotypical rugged, individualistic, self-reliant rural man cared about the opinion of wokes. That being said, those stats are not specific to white cis men, and only distinguish between overall men and women. You would have to look at the demographics of the rural regions to figure out who is suffering the most.

It feels a bit weird typing this, so yeah I'm peacing out. Hopefully you all can have a constructive argument and reach a conclusion.
very well, thanks for joining,

Concerning the rural study: Isolation (from wider society) might very well be driving factor here, aswell as age (young people in campuses v more old back in the village) both are key markers for chances of depression neurlogically, (as well as, in case of rural isolation, one's community not being nearby to catch in time before the act so to speak.)

At which point i would again argue that, concerning the overall numbers at least, an ideology that pushes men further into isolation by constantly berating instead of encouring them isn't very helpfull.

but no, I have no peer reviewed study for that (yet) unfortunaly.
 

Gagi

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thats not what I suggested
Haha now you sound exactly like JP! I'm not Cathy Newman and this is not Channel 4, relax.

maxresdefault.jpg

"(laughs) No, I'm not saying that at all!"

All I'm saying is, it's very hard to research what you have suggested. To what degree was someone alienated, or placed upon impossible standards or guilt or whatever? It's very subjective, and people have different thresholds/breaking points of what is acceptable to them and what is not. Also, how do you estimate how much pressure/guilt/alienation was someone put through? You can generalize, but would it give good results in that case? How would you know if people were telling the(ir) truth? Would research include some sort of therapy sessions with everyone (because a quiz isn't as accurate)?

I'm not saying what you suggested was stupid, just that it's not that easy to research and arrive at a strong conclusion, in my own opinion. But I guess those ideas are better suited to psycho/sociologists and researchers.
 
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jetflag

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I'm not saying what you suggested was stupid, just that it's not that easy to research and arrive at a strong conclusion, in my own opinion. But I guess those ideas are better suited to psycho/sociologists and researchers.
how do you define strong conclusion in this context? ofcourse the "evidence" if you will be psychoanalyitical and sociological in nature..we're talking about humans, psyche and society here.

what other mode of research would you suggest?

cause if Wh4t Y0ur S4ying IS! <pun in essence: "we can't ethically put this in the large hadron collider therefor we will never know for sure to the degree that we know earth's siderial rotation period" well yes.. sure.. but i thought that to be rather obvious given the subject of the topic, :)

We're, as a matter of practical neccesity, bound to the (soft) scientific fields of psychology and sociology throughout this entire topic...
 
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jetflag

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its 30 posts in one afternoon for me, i'll settle down till tomorrow. I think we've gotten the topic going. looking forward to the rest of you lot chipping in on this.
 
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Meh

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In responds to the disagreement between @Hensmon, @dmgtz96 and me in the religion/spirituality thread on the scale of the problem in relationship to woke culture and male suicide rates in the west particularly. Hereby a topic starter where we can continiue the broader discussion, concerning:

Woke culture (or 3e gen post modernist/marxist feminism, or however you want to call it)
Its impact on society or groups within society (both positive and the negative)
anything else related to said topic (such as its ideological foundation, why you like or dislike being woke, etc.)



I'll kick off in relation to the Suicide debate in the previous topic:


I'm off the (apparetly potentially racist fashist evil alt far right JP is redskull deplorable Heathen *insert negative affiliation or slur without factually debunking the argument here) opinion, that the (disparity) problem of (increasing) male suicide in the west, at least partially, can be contributed to a culture which, generally speaking:


- is present and/or rampant in institutions like: media, education, market ,and government and has been, from a less to an increasingly more degree present and influential for (multiple) decade(s) now

- Deconstructs or attempts to deconsruct, (all) existing structures, and that includes structures benificial for the (psychological ) functioning of males

- doesn't place or outright ignores rights and plights related to males in favour of females and minority groups.

- sees the west and particularly masculinity as a negative.

- doesn’t encourage, but berates/ shames (western) males conform its ideological standards.

- places unreasonable demands and/or expectations on said (western) males.



My reasons for thinking that are, aside from personal anekdote , Nutshelled, that suicidal behavior is aside from genetical aspects most often the result of:

-experiencing humiliation or shame,
-lack of support from family, community, or society,
-failure to meet (unreasonable) expectations or standards,
-environmental factors

(or a combination of those four) three of those boxes I think can be fairly ticked in a negative fashion when mirrored with said topic:

Hence, I think the rising spike as well as increasing disparity between male and female suicide in western countries can be in part assigned to (dominant) woke culture, and consider that to be a problem.

change my mind.
Male suicide is high because of a number of factors including there is a pressure to succeed and be someone special. Blame parents for feeding this narcissism to their kids. Parents and school sell them a fantasy. Males are often portrayed by the media as being dangerous/mean/bullies/ when that bullying is the result of bad parenting.
 
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jetflag

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there's a lot to unpack there, I agree that there's multible factors. and that society does place expectations on individuals, (not just men, but for the topic lets zoom in on those) both within the family unit aswell as institutional, i'm not sure if all of that is unfair or unreasonable though. In case of the whole woke doctrine i would definitly say yes, but also in case of say: fundamentalist circles where there also seems to be a high rate of suicide (though more balanced out between men/women)

I also agree which was my initial point, that it doesn't help that you have a culture/media that, instead of helping them/encouraging them to become balanced human's in society -> berates them, guilttrips them and tells them they're essentialy "the bad guy" (quintessential example basic elementairy schools who tell boys they should be more like girls when, for instance, engaging in perfectly normal (rough) frolicing

As for a generation growing up without much strife/struggle, consequently purpose and who're as such almost psychologically forced make up demons to fight.. I would say that is the cause óf the whole Woke sjw movement, which in term has an affect uppon western men, who're the primairy target.

this popped up on my youtube feed the other day (wonder how that got through the algorithm) Its basically a rap timeline of the whole movement.

 

Meh

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there's a lot to unpack there, I agree that there's multible factors. and that society does place expectations on individuals, (not just men, but for the topic lets zoom in on those) both within the family unit aswell as institutional, i'm not sure if all of that is unfair or unreasonable though. In case of the whole woke doctrine i would definitly say yes, but also in case of say: fundamentalist circles where there also seems to be a high rate of suicide (though more balanced out between men/women)

I also agree which was my initial point, that it doesn't help that you have a culture/media that, instead of helping them/encouraging them to become balanced human's in society -> berates them, guilttrips them and tells them they're essentialy "the bad guy" (quintessential example basic elementairy schools who tell boys they should be more like girls when, for instance, engaging in perfectly normal (rough) frolicing

As for a generation growing up without much strife/struggle, consequently purpose and who're as such almost psychologically forced make up demons to fight.. I would say that is the cause óf the whole Woke sjw movement, which in term has an affect uppon western men, who're the primairy target.

this popped up on my youtube feed the other day (wonder how that got through the algorithm) Its basically a rap timeline of the whole movement.

It's true what they say that the love of money is the root of all evil - because it's never enough and this capitalistic society forces you to change and adhere to its rules and regulations rather than allowing freedom you deserve. This capitalistic society works on Darwinian principle of survival of the fittest. The climate most definitely does play a role in male suicide and males are often told to neglect their health(look at the superstar djs - completely careless about their physical and mental health and say that they'll risk it).

The way I define freedom is that you should be allowed to exit out of a job whenever you want but these days everything has to be planned down to the last T. Including requiring qualification - rather than you could just do it by meeting people. But that's gone out of the window because they want you to be in a shoebox that they can control and monitor you.

You say that your generation hasn't had a lot to struggle with but I disagree. My generation has had a lot to struggle with - more so than my parents have.
We are all in a sick science experiment where everyone is being

Whether you're religious or into science, eventually both sides basically become greedy because and most likely because of heavy drug use and both pretty much kill off any sense of feeling or perception of reality. Both simply break all boundaries of what is reasonable acceptable of any human being and both go to extreme lengths to get what they want which is power and control - creating a big hole in the middle which is the middle class.
 

jetflag

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no, disagree, Capitalism or money isn't the root of all evil. Nor is the concept of possession. Any human hierachy forces you to adhere to its rules. (Name me one that doens't) Capitalism is merely a consequence of liberalism, a hierarchical system where the invididual and his/her freedom/ compentence is centralE.a. Give people the freedom to trade with or without currency, and you end up with capitalism/a market whether you want to or not. its a bottom op consequence. not a top down system.

there's also simply no better working system that we know of then capitalism. (or at the very least capitalism in combo with social programs)
 

Meh

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no, disagree, Capitalism or money isn't the root of all evil. Nor is the concept of possession. Any human hierachy forces you to adhere to its rules. (Name me one that doens't) Capitalism is merely a consequence of liberalism, a hierarchical system where the invididual and his/her freedom/ compentence is centralE.a. Give people the freedom to trade with or without currency, and you end up with capitalism/a market whether you want to or not. its a bottom op consequence. not a top down system.

there's also simply no better working system that we know of then capitalism. (or at the very least capitalism in combo with social programs)
So you setting a price tag shows that it's evil because you are trying to play god here and remove people's civil liberties by increasing the price over time. That is evil. I don't set a price tag on the human body. People should be allowed to decide whether or not we should accept cash as a form of currency but when that legal tender is forced upon, that's annoying because it doesn't allow any innovation or removes people's civil liberties. I don't want to rob people of their civil liberties but as long as there is a mutual agreement between two parties or more that the contract took place.
 
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jetflag

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So you setting a price tag shows that it's evil because you are trying to play god here and remove people's civil liberties by increasing the price over time. That is evil.
no i don't see how thats evil in any way...how is setting a price tag on something that has value to (x) person evil precisely? if the object or service in question is to expensive you're free to either not purchase or go to the (cheaper) competition.

things have value. in free trade system the value depends per person. and thats how we trade. Currency is simply an abstraction of the agreements we've made on trade. and the meme works because most people agree to play by the rules.

if i give you this paper, and the value is right. you give me stuff. simple as. there's no inherent immorality, god playing or evil in that simple principle. Some people are just better at it then others well...some people play football better then me...that doesn't mean i get to demand they chop their legs of as to level the playing field :)

I don't set a price tag on the human body.

A successful athlete, actor (or sex worker) thanks you kindly for taking away their livelyhood, something they probably worked very hard for.

People should be allowed to decide whether or not we should accept cash as a form of currency but when that legal tender is forced upon,
you can.. you're perfectly free to trade object to object. nobody forces you to trade your products or services for currency..I have for instance a very neat agreement with a friend of mine. I do the desining of (our) houses or appartments, He does the carpeting during construction. no money transaction is involved.

that's annoying because it doesn't allow any innovation or removes people's civil liberties. I don't want to rob people of their civil liberties but as long as there is a mutual agreement between two parties or more that the contract took place.
it might be annoying to some yes. at the very least its cumbersome (albeit massively practical) .but its not inherently immoral or unethical, nor does it infringe or removes peoples civil liberties. you are free to engage in trade. with or without money. (exceptions apply on some things an servicesnaturaly.. like slave trade, hitmen services and/or weapons in some countries)
 

Magdelayna

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Im not sure about any of you guys but currently ive decided to work in a less 'stressful' job but for less money a year - i could maybe earn 10k more a year but be a lot more stressed - is it worth it really?? Worrying about your job at home...
 

dmgtz96

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Im not sure about any of you guys but currently ive decided to work in a less 'stressful' job but for less money a year - i could maybe earn 10k more a year but be a lot more stressed - is it worth it really?? Worrying about your job at home...
It's relative. If you go from 20k USD to 30k USD, that's life-changing money. If you go from 30k USD to 40k USD, that can get you out of PhD student life (roommates, cheap food) to a more independent lifestyle (better/healthier food, living alone, and most likely better benefits).
Now, if you go from 100k USD to 110k USD, where you were working 40 hrs/week as a largely individual contributor, and the second job will have you work 50-60 hrs/week leading a team of employees, that's probably not worth it unless you use that second job as a stepping stone for something better.
 
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Meh

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no i don't see how thats evil in any way...how is setting a price tag on something that has value to (x) person evil precisely? if the object or service in question is to expensive you're free to either not purchase or go to the (cheaper) competition.

things have value. in free trade system the value depends per person. and thats how we trade. Currency is simply an abstraction of the agreements we've made on trade. and the meme works because most people agree to play by the rules.

if i give you this paper, and the value is right. you give me stuff. simple as. there's no inherent immorality, god playing or evil in that simple principle. Some people are just better at it then others well...some people play football better then me...that doesn't mean i get to demand they chop their legs of as to level the playing field :)



A successful athlete, actor (or sex worker) thanks you kindly for taking away their livelyhood, something they probably worked very hard for.


you can.. you're perfectly free to trade object to object. nobody forces you to trade your products or services for currency..I have for instance a very neat agreement with a friend of mine. I do the desining of (our) houses or appartments, He does the carpeting during construction. no money transaction is involved.


it might be annoying to some yes. at the very least its cumbersome (albeit massively practical) .but its not inherently immoral or unethical, nor does it infringe or removes peoples civil liberties. you are free to engage in trade. with or without money. (exceptions apply on some things an servicesnaturaly.. like slave trade, hitmen services and/or weapons in some countries)
Whether we like to say it or not we all have the illusion of freedom. Once we become part of a group or a following it's basically a religion. I only went by this music because it sounded great but to me I don't associate myself to any social groups because you sacrifice the beauty of the individual. I never gone clubbing just once and that's it and thought this is too loud. I am basically a home listener and do a job 9-5 just like everybody else. To me death is the ultimate freedom but this internet which was a great fantasy and when they took that away - that hurts and not only that but people then started experimenting on me and then profited from my suffering and I just wonder who wants to live in this sick world where there is this much cruelty. It's obviously down to these lame religious/social groups that form up to entertain the crowd which comes at a great risk.

Not just to yourself but to the crowd and the country too.
 

Hensmon

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Don't really know where to begin with this one. I get frustrated with both the woke and the anti-woke, in fact the whole discussion, debate and over analysis of the issue frustrates me, it's like a soap opera. The left show stupidity and painful naivety and the right indulge themselves in tribalism, reductionism and conspiracy, whilst offering nothing in return to real problems. What's worse is that it's all taking place inside the Twitter and Youtube bubble, which is not reflective of the world and the majority of people's views. The dying mainstream media latch onto it because its simple, emotive and tribalistic in nature and it drives engagement more than anything, which shapes the discussion further, a cycle that intensifies. It's a false representation of reality. It's shaping public discourse and thinking space via extreme minority views which now serve as anchoring points for the various perspectives, it's self perpetuating

It's why I have a hard time with your choice of wokeness as the focus for depression and suicide. The topic feels so manufactured to me, very sensationalized, artificial. How come you feel this deserves the emphasis when compared to other reasons? Expectations is definitely a valid reason people get depressed, but why not the burden of expectations in the context of careers, goals, family, friends, self-imposed, relationships, even our dreams? And how does the burden of expectations compare to things like substance abuse, lack of jobs/purpose, lack of connection to our environment, lack of human relationships, nutritional deficiencies, gut health, economic hardships, pollutants in our airs and water, exposure to violent content, pornography, social media etc. Many of these are all well studied and substantiated.

A recent example would be the study which attributed 745,194 deaths to over working. Job expectations? Corporate exploitation? Work over health?
 

Meh

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Whether you are a capitalist or a socialist or whatever - or invest in yourself, the more money we try to earn the more it robbed us of our civil liberties and there are control groups everywhere, including your parents. We are slaves to religion and science both are really the same and the two sides take turns.

It's the same way religion works and to me religion is evil because it has corrupted science and most people don't even know it.
The more money you have the less freedom it buys...
 

jetflag

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Don't really know where to begin with this one. I get frustrated with both the woke and the anti-woke, in fact the whole discussion, debate and over analysis of the issue frustrates me, it's like a soap opera.

well I’m just glad you finally replied took you two weeks m8, and that would explain why you initially reacted quite heavily to me saying something as mundaine as: “it doesn’t help that there is X dominant culture” I never said it was the prime cause, I said it doesn’t help having it around and might very well contribute negatively.


The left show stupidity and painful naivety and the right indulge themselves in tribalism, reductionism and conspiracy, whilst offering nothing in return to real problems.
I might very well be that those real problems are only solvable the best way, and not the perfect way. A notion I happen to personally subscribe to. However that aside:

The left endulges itself in tribalism, reductionism and conspiracy just as much as the right does, and in case of tribalism I would argue even more. This stems partially from left’s ideological drive for “equality” pushing them to constantly seek out new oppressed subgroups and inequalities in every group or class or aspect of society, no matter how minor, which is how you end up with things like “anarcho non trans exclusionairy feminists” They are, on virtually every political metric, Far more subdivided, tribal and arguabably puritan then what is now the right. (Which is why there’s no such phrase as “the right eats itself” )

The right is also massive stupid in certain areas, recent example the social media theme park fiasco in Florida. Blunt Naivety is something I would place more on the left though, since it is mainly concerned with what could be, utopia, as opposed to the right which is mainly concerned with what is, (harsch) reality. which is also where its somewhat uncaring/unsympathetic tone comes from, for which its often (unjustly) criticized. (bit of a Side track as this is a political generalization, not woke culture specifically)

What's worse is that it's all taking place inside the Twitter and Youtube bubble, which is not reflective of the world and the majority of people's views. The dying mainstream media latch onto it because its simple, emotive and tribalistic in nature and it drives engagement more than anything, which shapes the discussion further, a cycle that intensifies. It's a false representation of reality. It's shaping public discourse and thinking space via extreme minority views which now serve as anchoring points for the various perspectives, it's self perpetuating. It's why I have a hard time with your choice of wokeness as the focus for depression and suicide. The topic feels so manufactured to me, very sensationalized, artificial. How come you feel this deserves the emphasis when compared to other reasons?

And its why I’m having a hard time with you downplaying it the way you do (and even started a specific thread for it) This is probably one of if not the main spear point for our disagreement. And what I reckon to actually be a false representation of reality on your part .. your assumption that its all taking place inside (social) media. When that is demonstrably NOT the case. Its not “just” the media or the dark corners of the internet anymore, and it hasn’t been for quite a while now.

Woke culture is in mainstream politics:

-affirmative action,
- mandatory unconscious bias training,
- critical race theory
- even in an overwhelmingly “conservative” (if you can even call them that) government in the UK, A what now turns out to long cover up of thousands of child-rape cases, by government institutions. for the sake of "diversity" as one politician tweeted out.

Woke culture is dominant in Universities:
-Anywhere from the humanities (which have been totally subverted), Philosophy, where for instance thinkers like Ayn rand are actively shunned from the curriculum for ideological reasons. STEM fields, where the aforementioned government affirmative action is being pushed in the admission of students, all the way down to woke student protest groups who’re over representative on campus as opposed to those more classical liberal/conservative oriented. And anything in the universities now (or 30 years ago!) , follows irl 5 years later.

Woke culture is dominant in the work place. Especially in larger companies.
- Ranging anywhere from virtually any Big tech to Big 4 who go out of their way to virtue signal how lgbtq+ they are. To preferential hiring of minorities, to termination of contracts who’s idea’s aren’t “woke” enough. (which nearly happened to my wife)

Woke culture is dominant in media and entertainment: I don’t think this needs further exampling as the washlist will be 10 pages.

Woke culture is now being pushed in lower education: where the topic of say: transsexuality and gender dysphoria is now proposed and in some instances already educated to children as young as 5 years old. As well as rare instance of critical race theory such as the white ally, white oppressor cards in a recent scandal.

what you’re claiming, that its all nothing, manufactured and exclusively on the net.

Is just not true. Hensmon. It’s a falsehood. It directly intrudes in the daily lives of people who aren’t all fedora wearing basement dwellers..
Expectations is definitely a valid reason people get depressed, but why not the burden of expectations in the context of careers, goals, family, friends, self-imposed, relationships, even our dreams? And how does the burden of expectations compare to things like substance abuse, lack of jobs/purpose, lack of connection to our environment, lack of human relationships, nutritional deficiencies, gut health, economic hardships, pollutants in our airs and water, exposure to violent content, pornography, social media etc. Many of these are all well studied and substantiated.

A recent example would be the study which attributed 745,194 deaths to over working. Job expectations? Corporate exploitation? Work over health?

So there’s something we agree on, (constant, unreasonable) expectations are a valid reason for depression. As established above: Woke culture is in careers, the home, education, media/entertainment, politics etc. virtually all aspects of society.

now imagen the following: you’re a, in this case western, male who’s (genetically) prone to depression. (we’re not talking about the well balanced stoïc strong farmer here)

And there’s X culture dominant in all those aspects of the society you live in and you’re confronted with that:

- 2 minutes after you wake up and you walk in to your living room with your mom listening or watching to the BBC,
- then at the bus stop where a advert reminds you that “you need to do better”
- then at your uni,
- then later at work,
- then later back home where you want to engage in some well needed escapism in the form of a movie or a videogame.

day in, day out, day in, day out. day in , day out.

And that X culture basically revolves around You bad, Women weak, minorities oppressed. basically telling you in not so subtle way’s that you’re an oppressor and a mysogenist and a racist because of history and skintone.

why is it such a stretch in your imagination to reasonably assume that this, to use my earlier words “is not very helpful” potentially leads to more escapism in the form of substance abuse/ fastfood/ pornography, lack of confidence/more broken relationships in a downward spiral to, consequently, more: suicide.

Parallels can notably be drawn to certain religious sekts/groups aswell who, instead of encouraging their followers, berate and guilt trip them. Who also see e an increase in suicides as opposed to more balanced doctrines. (don’t have the articles at hand now but they’re out there)

The exception with Woke culture is that Woke culture does not threaten you with eternal torture if you indeed decide to kill yourself.

as for your 745,194 deaths to over working, stat. Since when are we talking about truck drivers with sleep depravity? we're talking about male suicide. they're not the same catagory.
 
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