Covid and vaccines and whatnot

Gagi said:

Really don't understand why people still get so emotional about the virus and vaccines. I might have understood fear at the start, but the attachment people have to other people's thoughts and theories is mind-boggling.

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There's been a lot of fear-mongering, and yes, there are lots of psycho liberals who at one point basically wanted unvaxx to be excluded from society, fired from their jobs, held in quarantine, and so on.

The truth is, even if I were ultra conservative, and even if I did not trust the vaccine, I would still take it anyways because leaving behind my loved ones would be so much worse. Not taking the vaccine does not mean I am "owning the libs," and there are countless accounts of COVID being real and dangerous.
I just wouldn't want to die because I never took it because some podcaster or politician said the vaccines are unsafe, or because I saw some funny memes on Parler. Taking their words at face value just means that I'm acting like a sheep.

Gagi said:

Yeah and why is there a need to listen to politicians or podcasters or influencers and other randos regarding your health and the pandemic? I wouldn't listen to them if I needed advice on JavaScript closures, let alone something that requires more education...

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Exactly.
If you yourself decide that you don't want to take the COVID vaccine for personal reasons, that's fine. Personal freedom and all as long as you understand the risks. It just doesn't make sense to me to blindly listen to randos. They won't have my back on my deathbed.

dmgtz96 said:

Remember: you shouldn't take (or not take) the vaccine because some politicians tells you. They're not going to give you kudos or money because you take it (or refuse to take it).

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Agreed. you should take the vaccine if you're convinced it benefits you and/or your surroundings, If you're not convinced of that, don't.

your body, your choice.

my wife's grandmother passed away this week from a blood cloth shortly after getting a Jansen shot and 10.000 rubels because of it. she never had any heart problems or required blood thinners throughout her life. My wife's not getting any shots, and I for one don't blame her.

Gagi said:

Really don't understand why people still get so emotional about the virus and vaccines. I might have understood fear at the start, but the attachment people have to other people's thoughts and theories is mind-boggling.

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its called tribalism and it can reach quite high levels when (imposed) fear is involved, on each side of the spectrum (evil government/vaccines trying to kill you, evil wappies trying to kill you etc.

Gagi said:

Yeah and why is there a need to listen to politicians or podcasters or influencers and other randos regarding your health and the pandemic? I wouldn't listen to them if I needed advice on JavaScript closures, let alone something that requires more education...

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there's a vacuum for clarity and "easy" answers in a situation that for the most part doesn't make sense/is counter intuitive, Its a problem that has always existed but never at this scale. Science/stats are quite muddy and complex subjects that most people don't dig into because its well, complex, muddy and time consuming. Most people want quick and easy answers and just get on with it. And if, after 2 years of false promises, counter productive policies and barely denting vaccines you don't trust the "official" institutions charged with translating said science/stats to you anymore, well. Where else can you go? Again, especially after 2 years.

This is also where the hightened tribalism comes from. people either stick to "government God and knows best no question" or "Joe rogan is convinced its the illuminati/ new world order better eat vegan peanut butter"

jetflag said:

my wife's grandmother passed away this week from a blood cloth shortly after getting a Jansen shot and 10.000 rubels because of it. she never had any heart problems or required blood thinners throughout her life. My wife's not getting any shots, and I for one don't blame her.

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jfc I didn't know this. That explains your perspective a lot better. Yeah, the J&J vaccine is suuuuper sketchy.

dmgtz96 said:

jfc I didn't know this. That explains your perspective a lot better. Yeah, the J&J vaccine is suuuuper sketchy.

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well my perspective is still if you want the vaccine you should get it, but you should never force people.

My wife on the other hand is now full-on antivax.

A meta-analysis on Ivermectin was just retracted.
Original paper: Meta-analysis of Randomized Trials of Ivermectin to Treat SARS-CoV-2 Infection, published on Jun 6th 2021 by Hill et. al
The authors of the original paper published a revised/updated version, Ivermectin for COVID-19: Addressing Potential Bias and Medical Fraud on January 17th, 2022.

Excerpt:

On July 6, 2021, Open Forum Infectious Diseases published the article “Meta-analysis of Randomized Trials of Ivermectin to Treat SARS-CoV-2 Infection” by Hill, et al. Subsequently, we and the authors learned that one of the largest studies on which this analysis was based was withdrawn due to fraudulent data; additional problems have emerged regarding other studies included in the original paper. An editorial Expression of Concern was first published under this record as the authors revised their analysis for resubmission.
The authors submitted and published a corrected version of the analysis with commentary on assessing trial quality while creating meta-analyses, available to read in OFID: “Ivermectin for COVID-19: Addressing Potential Bias and Medical Fraud” by Hill et al., Ivermectin for COVID-19: Addressing Potential Bias and Medical Fraud. The original analysis has been retracted.

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The 3-page revision does not have a typical introduction/methods/discussion structure, but here are the authors' concluding remarks:

With cases of potential medical fraud now identified, it is essential that access to patient-level databases be provided. If authors fail to provide these data, the study should be considered with a higher index of suspicion. Additionally, it should be mandatory that all registered trials report their findings. We understand that these are substantial changes to established procedures. However, the failure to recognize the potentially fraudulent studies, which led to multiple meta-analyses suggesting significant benefits of ivermectin for COVID-19, indicates that the tools currently used to evaluate the quality of clinical trials are insufficient. These events warrant our stringent recommendations

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explains why I felt so much better after having a surf when my iso ended..

Hensmon said:

Interesting study which show that use of salt is highly effective against Covid-19. Looking at these numbers is it possible to claim the results in this study are more effective than the numbers given for vaccination success rate? I don't actually know the numbers for vaccination

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsptsci.1c00080

"We performed experiments to test if a hypertonic saline solution was capable of inhibiting virus replication. Our data show that 1.2% NaCl inhibited virus replication by 90%, achieving 100% of inhibition at 1.5% in the nonhuman primate kidney cell line Vero, and 1.1% of NaCl was sufficient to inhibit the virus replication by 88% in human epithelial lung cell line Calu-3. Furthermore, our results indicate that the inhibition is due to an intracellular mechanism and not to the dissociation of the spike SARS-CoV-2 protein and its human receptor."

It's demonstrating a very simple mechanism where salt accumulates in the cells which then forces them to expend ATP in order to re-balance the electrolyte ratios, which leaves less ATP for viral replication. Almost all viruses require ATP in order to replicate/proliferate so its suggesting a cheap and universal antiviral treatment through increase of salt. This was saline but dietary salt would have the same effect as both enter into the cells through osmosis.

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Cool study.

As the authors mention, clinical trials need to be carried out in real humans before we can say if these salt solutions are truly effective. Ivermectin also showed promise in in-vitro studies like the one you linked, but the required Ivermectin concentration to defeat COVID is not feasible in humans.

Ah yes, the same principles that led him to organise his own special tennis tournament to spite the cancellation of the professional events right at the start of the pandemic.

Hot Tuna said:

organise his own special tennis tournament

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What's your point? He didn't break any rules by organizing it.

You can't blame someone for something they do when it's simply within the rules in that country.

I think it's very strong from Novak to put his principles above the titles-race. He is not anti-vax, but he doesn't want to be forced. That's an opinion that millions of people have. And again, for someone who's life literally = his body... It makes sense that he is careful with his body.

Specially now, when Omikoron:

- is less dangerous, way less healthcare needed, way way less IC beds needed;
- vaccin is made for the original version of covid. Now only effective around 60% against Omikron.

That means if a million people get the vaccin now, 400.000 shots are useless. That is... a lot...
So the reasons to not take the vaccin, or a booster, are getting a LOT stronger than before.

All in all... whatever your opinion was in January 2021..... you have to consider January 2022 is a LOT diferent.

In the current situation... there is not much benefit from taking the vaccin.

My sister and her husband and kids are not vacinnated. I had a strong opinion about that a year ago. But what reasons are there to take it "now"? Not much really.... in one week... the Netherlands is opening up 100%. No more distance, no more face masks, nightlife opening up.

Good call on his part, picking principles over pragmatism or title.

That being said its not a heartbreaking choice being in his position. the man's basically set for life already.

I have a whole lot more respect for the average Canadian trucker who's livelyhood is on the line and who basically has to choose between starving his family/having them live in poverty, or having the government defacto rape them against their will or convictions..

Magnevi said:

What's your point?

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ITF: OK this looks serious, no more tennis tournaments to reduce the risk of spreading

Novax: Fuck that, come and play at my tennis tournament

Novax's Tennis Tournament: Spreads Covid

Magnevi said:

You can't blame someone for something they do when it's simply within the rules in that country.

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There's people out there who will blame you for merely existing if it so much as slightly interveres with their "utopian" idea of a perfectly planned (biomedical security) society m8.

it sais something about their (a)moral framework and will to dominate others for their own false sense of security.

Hot Tuna said:

ITF: OK this looks serious, no more tennis tournaments to reduce the risk of spreading

Novax: Fuck that, come and play at my tennis tournament

Novax's Tennis Tournament: Spreads Covid

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ITF doesn't make up laws in Serbia. Serbian government does.

Plus, it's not like we are taking about a 128 male player + 128 female player (plus doubles, plus boys/girls, plus weelchair... and 'invites' (old players))... grand slam tournament.

It was a small demonstration-tournament with only a few players. All within rules from government at the time.

I have exactly 0 empathy for Novak not being able to participate in the AO, but I don't really care if he wants to host his own mini-tournament in his home country.

We're firmly at the stage where everyone either looks after themselves, or doesn't.

dmgtz96 said:

but I don't really care if he wants to host his own mini-tournament in his home country

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We are talking about the mini-tournament that he already held in June 2020. A few players like Zverev and Thiem also pariticipated. And Rublev (current top 10) and Dimitrov (former top 10).

Thiem:
“Thanks to Novak for organising a charity event like this, with aim to raise funds for humanitarian projects across the region. We will do our best to provide great tennis performance and bring spectacle and great entertainment to the audience,” .




^ Hot Tuna's conclusion: Djokovic is a monster!!!!!1