Covid and vaccines and whatnot

dmgtz96

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I tried understanding what that was about, but it all went over my head. I honestly don't know much about the UK's response to COVID
 
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Jetflag

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main plot point seems to be Hancock texting: "When do we deploy the new variant?" and "We frighten the pants [off] everyone with the new strain"

suggesting the pandemic was (partially) planned the whole time.
 

Hensmon

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Ok that got my interest and I looked into it. Looks like those quotes are essentially the tories deciding the timing and flavor of announcing the arrival of a new covid variant.

‘Planned covid’ maybe feels a bit loaded. More manipulating details or leveraging the situation for their needs.

None of this surprises me. The Right-wing modus operandi since for as long as I’ve been alive has been to propagate and catalyze fear in as many ways as available. It’s been their primary model for retaining power and utterly catastrophic for the world imo. Just another example of it in action here. In the tories case the humanity is so void that to them a potential deadly new variant is an opportunity, rather than a concern, used to spread fear in order to accelerate an specific agenda. That agenda may be stronger enforcement and enactment of the rules, but to the ends of having a situation that can make them look good, not that lives may be saved.
 
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Jetflag

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Ok that got my interest and I looked into it. Looks like those quotes are essentially the tories deciding the timing and flavor of announcing the arrival of a new covid variant.

‘Planned covid’ maybe feels a bit loaded. More manipulating details or leveraging the situation for their needs.

None of this surprises me. The Right-wing modus operandi since for as long as I’ve been alive has been to propagate and catalyze fear in as many ways as available. It’s been their primary model for retaining power and utterly catastrophic for the world imo. Just another example of it in action here. In the tories case the humanity is so void that to them a potential deadly new variant is an opportunity, rather than a concern, used to spread fear in order to accelerate an specific agenda. That agenda may be stronger enforcement and enactment of the rules, but to the ends of having a situation that can make them look good, not that lives may be saved.
Polls suggest that, especially among the 18 to 25 range (so basically brittains youth) think the government should have been even more strict in the lockdown.

Imagen wanting less freedom, and having globalist cuddling power hungry tories deciding that for you.

🤷‍♂️
 
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dmgtz96

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Then you, or ABC. Or Times or whoever aren’t remotely qualified to speak for Trump or his supporters either and “what goes on in their minds or lived experiences”

you can’t have it both ways.

We can only go by the facts, and the facts are that trump didn’t target or mention the Asian community at all no matter how much they/ your team try and project that on him or his administration. Period.

you, and/or certain “liberal” media outlets want it to be true, because you simply hate the man. This to me is a schoolbook example of racebaiting “It came from China” -> therefor go harass United States Citizens with Asian origins.
It's not projection, though. Or us "wanting it to be true." Because it was true, and it happened.

Asian Americans reported 3,800 hate-related incidents during the pandemic, report finds

Abuse tracked by Stop AAPI Hate found more than 68% was verbal harassment while 11% was physical
Racism isn't just something widespread that is obvious to society, like "No Asians allowed in this restaurant." It's also one-on-one interactions between the racist and the victim:

“A [ride-hailing service] driver said to me after I got into his car, ‘Damn, another Asian riding with me today, I hope you don’t have any Covid’,” read one testimonial from the Las Vegas in the report. “After I told him, ‘Have a good day’, he replied back, ‘You shouldn’t be requesting anymore rides from anybody’.”

Trump's comments undeniably fueled Anti-Asian hate, even if he did not intend to fuel anti-Asian hate. This is why heads of state need to be VERY careful with their words, and why the medical community should not name viruses based on countries or on people.


gimme a break please, how far can you stretch something before it becomes absurd.

and no, it does matter if he was technically right or not. This isn’t the first time Chinese wetmarkets or (plausible) lableaks caused a world wide pandemic where millions died. The previous WHO administration tapped them on the fingers multiple times before Tedros took over and went soft on them. Words matter yes, so does the Truth.
China's (proven) record with pandemics does not justify making comments that would alienate people who look Chinese.

how many pandemics would you like to have before you start placing facts over feelings/ petty political tribalism?
bro, in the COVID pandemic the "petty political tribalism" was coming from the Rs.

I'm not looking forward to your rebuttals for these comments, because based on your responses so far I think I will heavily disagree with whatever they are since they will inevitably show a big lack of empathy toward Asian Americans.

edit: for the record @jetflag I don't actually care about defending China. The lab leak theory could very well be true, and China might have actually fucked up their controls with this virus. Unfortunately, Asian Americans got dragged into this, and that is what I care about. Because the average American is just dumb as shit
 
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dmgtz96

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1678575877584.png


fine, let's see what that is about. Will it be the lab leak theory? will it be a natural transmission from animals to humans?
will it just be a nothing-burger, that the agencies cannot determine the origin of COVID?
 
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Jetflag

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It's not projection, though. Or us "wanting it to be true." Because it was true, and it happened.

Asian Americans reported 3,800 hate-related incidents during the pandemic, report finds


Racism isn't just something widespread that is obvious to society, like "No Asians allowed in this restaurant." It's also one-on-one interactions between the racist and the victim:

“A [ride-hailing service] driver said to me after I got into his car, ‘Damn, another Asian riding with me today, I hope you don’t have any Covid’,” read one testimonial from the Las Vegas in the report. “After I told him, ‘Have a good day’, he replied back, ‘You shouldn’t be requesting anymore rides from anybody’.”
I think you’ve just present me with probably the best example of why I deem this to be projection and/or leading the evidence towards something you want to be true. 😄

Here we have a Guardian article, one of UK’s most left leaning biased news outlets citing a “report” from an activist group on the same political spectrum who, one day after Trumps remark, started counting one month of “hate incidents” (like being hesitant about picking up residents from a country with a raging virus from the airport) and squarely blaming that on Bad Orange man, without:

- setting any sort of hate incident baseline.

- making any sort of comparison to previous months or years for that demographic v topic.

Nope, its just on the face crash boom bang asserted that those 3800 cases must trumps shoulders, that’s the Truth don’t you know.. because reasons.

I find it genuinely perplexing that not 2 pages ago we’ve had a lengthy discussion about data manipulation, p-hacking and faulthy statistics...
and then you go and present that article^ as a postulate.



Trump's comments undeniably fueled Anti-Asian hate, even if he did not intend to fuel anti-Asian hate. This is why heads of state need to be VERY careful with their words, and why the medical community should not name viruses based on countries or on people. China's (proven) record with pandemics does not justify making comments that would alienate people who look Chinese.
No he didn’t and you’ve presented 0 credible evidence to back that so called un-deniability up. Trump called a Spade a Spade, What would you have him say? the “Its an unspecified virus of unknown origin but for reasons totally unrelated we won’t be having any flights from China coming in? meme“

You don't have to be a dumb as fuck average american to knot those ropes together. China's (proven) record with pandemics justifies calling China out for that. Which is what Trump did.

bro, in the COVID pandemic the "petty political tribalism" was coming from the Rs.
Yeah no.. that one is squarly on your prefered team m8. It was the Dems who went full alarmist, full lockdown full “killer virus” sowing panic, hate and mistrust of any potential carrier, whether that be Chinese flyovers, the unvaxxed or just Joe on the street without a mask. And it was your camp who, instead of chasing the truth, simply decided to stick to one picked narrative because heaving forbid the R’s might have valid point/line of questioning.

I'm not looking forward to your rebuttals for these comments, because based on your responses so far I think I will heavily disagree with whatever they are since they will inevitably show a big lack of empathy toward Asian Americans., I don't actually care about defending China. The lab leak theory could very well be true, and China might have actually fucked up their controls with this virus. Unfortunately, Asian Americans got dragged into this, and that is what I care about. Because the average American is just dumb as shit
I think we've had enough back & forths to tell that you're more of a Pathos guy and i'm more of a Logos guy and so I know you care about that and it "Siers" you to use a dutch expression, but i'm not going to let you hijack a discussion about what is true with how it feels. And thats not even getting into the fragmented nature of the Asian American demographic. Many a vietnamese communities whole heartily supported Trump calling out China for letting another one slip.

Trump, even in his bluntness, Demonstrably said nothing dissaproving, imflamatory, or racist towards Asian Americans. He said the virus came from China, which it did.
 

Jetflag

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View attachment 1403

fine, let's see what that is about. Will it be the lab leak theory? will it be a natural transmission from animals to humans?
will it just be a nothing-burger, that the agencies cannot determine the origin of COVID?
I think the latter honestly. we're past the point of ever finding patient 0. so even if there's evidence for 1 or 2 it doesn't matter.

the bottom line should be that China, with help from the internation community if must be, Finally (and prefereably humanely!) controls its disease generation centres.

whether that be labs or wet-markets.
 
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dmgtz96

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I think you’ve just present me with probably the best example of why I deem this to be projection and/or leading the evidence towards something you want to be true. 😄

Here we have a Guardian article, one of UK’s most left leaning biased news outlets citing a “report” from an activist group on the same political spectrum who, one day after Trumps remark, started counting one month of “hate incidents” (like being hesitant about picking up residents from a country with a raging virus from the airport) and squarely blaming that on Bad Orange man, without:

- setting any sort of hate incident baseline.

- making any sort of comparison to previous months or years for that demographic v topic.

Nope, its just on the face crash boom bang asserted that those 3800 cases must trumps shoulders, that’s the Truth don’t you know.. because reasons.

I find it genuinely perplexing that not 2 pages ago we’ve had a lengthy discussion about data manipulation, p-hacking and faulthy statistics...
and then you go and present that article^ as a postulate.




No he didn’t and you’ve presented 0 credible evidence to back that so called un-deniability up. Trump called a Spade a Spade, What would you have him say? the “Its an unspecified virus of unknown origin but for reasons totally unrelated we won’t be having any flights from China coming in? meme“

You don't have to be a dumb as fuck average american to knot those ropes together. China's (proven) record with pandemics justifies calling China out for that. Which is what Trump did.


Yeah no.. that one is squarly on your prefered team m8. It was the Dems who went full alarmist, full lockdown full “killer virus” sowing panic, hate and mistrust of any potential carrier, whether that be Chinese flyovers, the unvaxxed or just Joe on the street without a mask. And it was your camp who, instead of chasing the truth, simply decided to stick to one picked narrative because heaving forbid the R’s might have valid point/line of questioning.


I think we've had enough back & forths to tell that you're more of a Pathos guy and i'm more of a Logos guy and so I know you care about that and it "Siers" you to use a dutch expression, but i'm not going to let you hijack a discussion about what is true with how it feels. And thats not even getting into the fragmented nature of the Asian American demographic. Many a vietnamese communities whole heartily supported Trump calling out China for letting another one slip.

Trump, even in his bluntness, Demonstrably said nothing dissaproving, imflamatory, or racist towards Asian Americans. He said the virus came from China, which it did.
Ok, for real: what does it matter that the Guardian and the activist group are liberal?
Conservative sources aren't going to study the effects of racism lmao

like, of course the groups reporting on this issue are liberal... because Fox News and co. don't give a damn about people being racist to others
 

dmgtz96

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I think the latter honestly. we're past the point of ever finding patient 0. so even if there's evidence for 1 or 2 it doesn't matter.

the bottom line should be that China, with help from the internation community if must be, Finally (and prefereably humanely!) controls its disease generation centres.

whether that be labs or wet-markets.
On that I agree. I think this perspective can get bi-partisan support. Something obviously went wrong there and needs to be fixed Otherwise, pandemics will continue spreading from China.
 
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Jetflag

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Ok, for real: what does it matter that the Guardian and the activist group are liberal?
Conservative sources aren't going to study the effects of racism lmao

like, of course the groups reporting on this issue are liberal... because Fox News and co. don't give a damn about people being racist to others
It matters in the sense that they have a clear bias against the man, so ofcourse it’s gonna be all his fault.lol. and the reason why said other media outlets don't do this is because thats no way to study the effects of racism.

pick a month of your choosing, don't establish a baseline, don't make any sort of viable comparison, and blame it all on one guy of your choosing. \

You could write the same article with the same “report” and pick say the Californian governor as your scapegoat. And other then that..look...they can be as socialist, liberal or “ anti racist” as they damn well please. 🤷‍♂️

What matter most here is the quality of “evidence” they present as as an axiom that these so called “hate crimes” and the assertion that these are solely the result of trumps words.
 
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Hensmon

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Saw this report today, allegedly claiming that patient 0, 1 and 2 for Covid are being identified as 3 scientists who worked in the Wuhan corona virus laboratory next to the initial outbreak. Unfortunately the 'US gov sources' from which the article is based is not revealed, however I know two of these journalists and they do have a good level of credibility and integrity, especially Matt Tiabbi.

They mention that documentation will be declassified soon which will actually confirm this to be true, so let's see. Interestingly though Biden is somewhat validating the development:

"A bill signed by President Biden earlier this year specifically called for the release of the names and roles of the sick researchers at the WIV, their symptoms and date of symptom onset, and whether these researchers had been involved with or exposed to coronavirus research."

 
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Saw this report today, allegedly claiming that patient 0, 1 and 2 for Covid are being identified as 3 scientists who worked in the Wuhan corona virus laboratory next to the initial outbreak

This is old news. On January 15th of this year the US State Department put out a statement on their website saying the lab leak theory was likely the cause leak. FBI and UK towing the same line.

It was so fucking obvious from the start to anyone with a brain. Disheartening to see such a large portion of society put their head in the sand and sing la la la, just unthinkable to even entertain reasonable alternatives, god forbidding they might meet a middle ground with those with opposite views. People like @Hot Tuna here who live by partisan orthodoxy, too proud to admit they were wrong, too quick to belittle, and too eager to move on when truth starts to come through. Tragic state of affairs.
 

dmgtz96

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This is old news. On January 15th of this year the US State Department put out a statement on their website saying the lab leak theory was likely the cause leak. FBI and UK towing the same line.

It was so fucking obvious from the start to anyone with a brain. Disheartening to see such a large portion of society put their head in the sand and sing la la la, just unthinkable to even entertain reasonable alternatives, god forbidding they might meet a middle ground with those with opposite views. People like @Hot Tuna here who live by partisan orthodoxy, too proud to admit they were wrong, too quick to belittle, and too eager to move on when truth starts to come through. Tragic state of affairs.
Conveniently ignores the fact that the lab leak theory was bundled with good ol' racism against people of Chinese descent
 

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This is old news. On January 15th of this year the US State Department put out a statement on their website saying the lab leak theory was likely the cause leak. FBI and UK towing the same line.

It was so fucking obvious from the start to anyone with a brain. Disheartening to see such a large portion of society put their head in the sand and sing la la la, just unthinkable to even entertain reasonable alternatives, god forbidding they might meet a middle ground with those with opposite views. People like @Hot Tuna here who live by partisan orthodoxy, too proud to admit they were wrong, too quick to belittle, and too eager to move on when truth starts to come through. Tragic state of affairs.
When I had Covid19. I felt it was such a strange virus, the feeling it gave me like something quickly possessing me and taking over my body. I started to wonder if something this peculiar could only be constructed in a lab. It was in the first year of the official outbreak.
Given the incredible way the virus spread so immensely all over the world and the fact that there was such little really known about it, plus the footage people saw in early 2020 of these mega hospitals being built in China for no known reason, its not idiotic to consider that even now that it could have been made in a lab.

Thing is, I have a friend who is a Doctor of Physics and has other various scientific degrees. I talked to him about what he thought. He said the possibility that something like this was constructed in a lab was so difficult because to create this kind of specific virus with these features is almost impossible. He gave an analogy about how its much more likely it came about through natural means. Stating that at some point, it was eventually going to happen and that virologists and the scientific industry experts had warned about it’s likely hood for years given the things and ways humans go about things.

Truth is, it certainly is a strange virus. I have Long Covid. ( Post covid fatigue syndrome) I collapsed 2 years after getting covid19 at the end of last year. Some people in my support groups have it significantly worse than me. Im lucky to be able to work full time ( albeit at a very restricted level) but some people are unable to do anything but lie down all day. For one person their task for the day was to send just 1 email. They are so generally exhausted that that’s all they could achieve in 1 day accept lying down for the rest of the day. Im tired a lot still, its a different kind of tiredness, a horrible one that amongst other symptoms, restricts your brain with high levels of Brain fog. At first for me at one point I thought i may never work full time again, but that lady who could only send 1 email never probably will never work fully again isn’t the only one like her. Its so cruel. Many in my group like myself are NHS workers too. Nurses and other healthcare professionals.
 
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Conveniently ignores the fact that the lab leak theory was bundled with good ol' racism against people of Chinese descent

What on good earth are you waffling about? You may in your own small little world have decided that rational and objective reality be "bundled" alongside some tabloid partisan nonsense, but the rest of the sensible thinkers, involving large portions of the scientific and investigative community, took the lab leak seriously from day one.

It's just astonishing the disconnect. So many self proclaimed 'critical thinkers' of our society who built for themselves pedalstools on the back of group think, to which they could look down upon the people who dared offer a different take than their own. Even if the lab leak theory turned out to be unequivocally false this behaviour is still totally unacceptable, and what lies at the centre of so much that is wrong with society today. The fact that it's a true just makes it even more disgraceful and depressing.
 
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dmgtz96

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What on good earth are you waffling about? You may in your own small little world have decided that rational and objective reality be "bundled" alongside some tabloid partisan nonsense, but the rest of the sensible thinkers, involving large portions of the scientific and investigative community, took the lab leak seriously from day one.

It's just astonishing the disconnect. So many self proclaimed 'critical thinkers' of our society who built for themselves pedalstools on the back of group think, to which they could look down upon the people who dared offer a different take than their own. Even if the lab leak theory turned out to be unequivocally false this behaviour is still totally unacceptable, and what lies at the centre of so much that is wrong with society today. The fact that it's a true just makes it even more disgraceful and depressing.
I'm only going to say this one time only, because I am no longer interested in discussing anything with you - I don't think your opinion is worth reading.

The lab leak theory was opposed because everyone with an ounce of racism in them was using it as an excuse to shit on and discriminate against Asian people, including Asian Americans of different nationalities. You would have needed to live under a rock to think otherwise. THAT is the unacceptable behavior, not the "group think" that you're talking about. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you or I get offended online. It's whatever. Another problem is that a commonly mentioned variant of the lab leak theory is that COVID was released intentionally, which is problematic. That's why there were so many memes about the "plandemic" in right-wing circles.

Getting it?

The lab leak theory is not inherently racist in and of itself, but most of its supporters were actual dumbasses who prevented serious discussion on it, or who came up with weird conspiracy shit that made it a career-killer to even consider scientifically. This is just one more of the examples where politics ruined science, but it was NOT the left-wing who ruined it.
 

Jetflag

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No. It did, we went through this at length before.

you, or better yet the radical left wing political stream you representsimply want this to be true.

And have provided 0 credible evidence for it.

why? Because it serves as an excuse for your own hypocrisy in wilfully ignoring valid scientific hypotheses for the sake of your own tribalistic and religious devotion to woke ideology.

And as such it was The left who blew up inherently non-racist and factual remarks by trump and his entourage up to such nuclear proportions, and projected their own confirmation bias on to that.

Turning this into an ideological/political issue, not a scientific one, or even a factual one at that,

you HATE the man/ opposite camp, and so when he sais a you say b, evenif the question was as obvious as “what’s the first letter of the alphabet”

On par with how the reps still deny anthropogenic co2 emissions in the athmosphere, simply because its the dems propagating it..

You gate-keeping scientific reasearch and cancelling scientists personally by pulling the race-card whenever you can is on you. Not the right. And for a group allegedly being oh so pro truth and science I suggest doing some serious navel staring and contemplation next time a serious question pops up, instead of knee jerkingly pulling the racist card for the I don’t know how manyth time.

if it where only for keeping that card from being watered down and stripped of all its meaning.
 
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dmgtz96

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No. It did, we went through this at length before.

you, or better yet the radical left wing political stream you representsimply want this to be true.

And have provided 0 credible evidence for it.

why? Because it serves as an excuse for your own hypocrisy in wilfully ignoring valid scientific hypotheses for the sake of your own tribalistic and religious devotion to woke ideology.

And as such it was The left who blew up inherently non-racist and factual remarks by trump and his entourage up to such nuclear proportions, and projected their own confirmation bias on to that.

Turning this into an ideological/political issue, not a scientific one, or even a factual one at that,

you HATE the man/ opposite camp, and so when he sais a you say b, evenif the question was as obvious as “what’s the first letter of the alphabet”

On par with how the reps still deny anthropogenic co2 emissions in the athmosphere, simply because its the dems propagating it..

You gate-keeping scientific reasearch and cancelling scientists personally by pulling the race-card whenever you can is on you. Not the right. And for a group allegedly being oh so pro truth and science I suggest doing some serious navel staring and contemplation next time a serious question pops up, instead of knee jerkingly pulling the racist card for the I don’t know how manyth time.

if it where only for keeping that card from being watered down and stripped of all its meaning.
I could send you a bunch of links, but you will just say "oh this publication has a liberal bias, therefore not worth considering." We live in different realities, but yours is wrong.