Thoughts on USA this year?

brandonl

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yes I agree. which is why i'm not a libetarian but a classical liberal, and as such not opposed to the concept of the Nationstate and/or governments. I believe we're actually never going to get a perfect 1 size fits all system and instead you need multible independend ones constatly pushing and pulling on one another to reach a sort of...optimal impasse. if that makes sense.

Capitalism is misstakenly seen by most as a top down implied system. Its not. is a bottom up consequence of Liberalism a.k.a the recognition of sovereignty of the individual, its right to own the fruits of its labour and its freedom to engange in mutual trade.
much like democracy, who also puts the emphasis on the soverneignty of the individual and its freedom to engage with the democratic process via its voice/vote. because regardless of the makeup of the group. the lowest intersection / common demonitator will always be the individual.

and in that sense they both perfectly align with one of my favorite churchill quotes.

"Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Same goes for capitalism and its imperfecies in a sense. There simply isnt any demonstrably better working system available, untill someone invents it at which point i would like to be the first to know.


I agree that capitalism is currently the best economic system because it has lifted the most people out of poverty and done the most to eliminate inequality. This is a positive side benefit of governments/corporations/industries creating an economic system they control and benefit mostly from by the rest of society who has to struggle their whole lives to achieve a half decent society. It is to their gain that we achieve those goals in order to get the most amount of people supporting an otherwise terrible system that leaves way too many people behind and those who benefit still have little say or control over a system that still enslaves and oppresses them.

People are blind to see that. They go along with a system they are born into, that they know their whole life's and know nothing else. People live comfortable enough, and are too afraid to support radical change for a better system or world for themselves and others. It seems too impossible to imagine so people fold and accept what exists. That's how governments control people, by giving people enough to accept the system and not enough to be truly be free and in control of one's life.

I don't like this system at all. I feel we can do better. I feel like a slave, i feel oppressed by a system with too many problems, one which i have very little control and influence over.

What we need is molecular nanotechnology just like in Star Trek (aka the replicator) that can create raw materials, finished goods, food etc. That would eliminate scarcity and prevent the need to have capitalism or force people to work for money in order to life. The big 4 as i call it (machines, automation, robotics and A.I.) can replace human labor while people enjoy the finished goods. we need to move towards a society where people can control their own futures and pursue their own path while a social system to take care of them and provide basic needs without being forced to spend an entire life providing that for one's self. That's true freedom and liberty to me. That gives people a chance to pursue a higher purpose and focus on bigger issues that concern people.
 
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jetflag

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well, invest in capitalism it is then. The competative market is, at least thats how i see it, the best way we have of getting (to) the big 4. Beware though. by the time you end up with a post scarcity future dominated by machines, automation, robots, AI, there might very well not be a humanity left or will be no more very soon after.

this youtube video summerizes what that process could, in all likelyhood, look like very well. Its basically the happy ending humanity awaits, even if all things negative regarding the big 4 such as lol-skynet-O-0_u-ded don't come to pass.


on that note, might I recommend the following youtube channel seen as you're interrested in this stuff like me. Its a scifi futurism documentairy/discussion channel that i'm an active part of, music wise, and it has a great series on post scarcity civs.

 
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dmgtz96

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It's funny but there are flaws:
Politicians are allowed to change their instances, so what Biden said in the '90s about violence in the streets has little bearing on his current stance. He realized the draconian laws from then were a mistake. People are allowed to make mistakes and rectify them - that's just part of being human.
National mask mandates are not unconstitutional, so the question "you would support an unconstitutional mask mandate?" is irrelevant because it's based on a false assumption.
The most problematic are the stances which he stated short ago and then switched, like defunding the police. The white kids comment was also really bad.
Ultimately, that video is basically right-wing propaganda, and that becomes clear once you look up the uploader (Charlie Kirk) and find out more about his organization (Turning Point), which is known for hyperbole that favors Trump.
 
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dmgtz96

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The world i am trying to describe is exactly what you see in Star Trek. A utopia. Certainly one that shares pieces of democracy, socialism and communism. I refuse to believe that humanity can't make it work.
Some cultures and their values are fundamentally incompatible with other cultures/values.

Case in point: the Lebanese doctor who was denied German citizenship for views that did not match the German free and constitutional order.

Judgment (German)

The case was reported as "Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand", but inspecting the judgment (just google translate what it says, if you'd like) tells you much more about the thought process that went behind the decision. From the top Reddit comment:
It wasn't "just" refusing a handshake, According to the judgement he also avoided clear answers to the questions how he views bodily punishment for infidelity in marriage or amputation for theft. Instead he just stated that "God is merciful" and he "doesn't live in a country where those exist".
To the question whether Sharia law should be introduced in Germany, he replied that the German people would have to decide whether to do that. When informed that the core parts of Sharia, family and marriage laws are subject to Sura 4,34 (Men are caretakers of women. Rightous woman are obedient" [shortened], and thus incompatible with core principles of the German constitutional order, he avoided a clear answer by stating that "before God, men and women are equal".
To the question how he views that according to Islamic canon the prophet Mohammed consummated marriage with a nine year old girl, he replied that "in some countries girls are more mature than, for example, in Norway".
So the judgement wasn't "just" for the handshake, but an overall conclusion that he held views hostile to the German free and democratic constitutional order and thus couldn't become a citizen.

I know for some in Europe it's controversial to reject immigrants from the Middle East. Observers from across the pond see things differently, and we know Islamic religious fundamentalists are unwelcome here.
 
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jetflag

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It's funny but there are flaws: namely *TEXT*

please don't make me do an analysis like that everytime Katadunkas posts a silly trump meme or video m8. Or do you honestly think the creator of those aren't in any way bipartisan towards the dems? ;)
 

dmgtz96

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please don't make me do an analysis like that everytime Katadunkas posts a silly trump meme or video m8. Or do you honestly think the creator of those aren't in any way bipartisan towards the dems? ;)
I don't blame you, but those videos are probably being used to deceive people.
I've seen snopes do the same for dems/liberals, which is weird but I'd have called them out, too.
 
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jetflag

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I don't blame you, but those videos are probably being used to deceive people.
I've seen snopes do the same for dems/liberals, which is weird but I'd have called them out, too.
name me one meme or political video that isn't being used to influence or decieve people.

if the criteria is, "that might be misleading/influential therefor bad" then we're better of not posting anything relevant to the topic a priori.

and boy what a boring thread that would make.
 

Gagi

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In humour, you kinda have to generalize and over-exaggerate. The problem is, most of the people take humour literally, rather than what it really is. That's why you see all these "this is the real truth/he's a philosopher" on all of these George Carlin, Bill Burr, Dave Chappelle standup videos.
 
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dmgtz96

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name me one meme or political video that isn't being used to influence or decieve people.

if the criteria is, "that might be misleading/influential therefor bad" then we're better of not posting anything relevant to the topic a priori.

and boy what a boring thread that would make.
That's a dangerous argument to make. That's how you get all the "fake news" on Facebook.

In humour, you kinda have to generalize and over-exaggerate. The problem is, most of the people take humour literally, rather than what it really is. That's why you see all these "this is the real truth/he's a philosopher" on all of these George Carlin, Bill Burr, Dave Chappelle standup videos.
I'm not familiar with those people, but I agree with your second sentences. Clearly you, @jetflag, and I know the stuff in the videos is wrong, but the droves of people on Facebook and echo chambers don't. That's when it becomes problematic.
 

jetflag

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That's a dangerous argument to make. That's how you get all the "fake news" on Facebook.


I'm not familiar with those people, but I agree with your second sentences. Clearly you, @jetflag, and I know the stuff in the videos is wrong, but the droves of people on Facebook and echo chambers don't. That's when it becomes problematic.

sure, but ask yourself whats more problematic. radical fringes who take what is cleary a comedic take seriously, Or comedy death/censorship by an institute who decides for you what is or isn't haram or factual?

The way I see it comedy or exaduartion for political gain is part of the free market of ideas that all parties can and do make use of, and is therefor perfectly fair. So unless you have a moral objection to things like this:


aswell, i don't see how the aforementioned would be problematic if you're consistent.
- both are comedy
- both exadurate and distort points/reality for a laugh and/or political gain for their prefered candidate.

Echo chambers is what happens when one starts shunning ideas and/or comedy, because it might disagree or hurt group feelings. instead of engaging with the dialogue.
 
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jetflag

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but very well. here's a somewhat more harmless biden meme.
122044093_852139162195091_9068913075577457326_o.jpg


Hope kadadunkas steps up his game :D
 
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dmgtz96

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sure, but ask yourself whats more problematic. radical fringes who take what is cleary a comedic take seriously, Or comedy death/censorship by an institute who decides for you what is or isn't haram or factual?


Echo chambers is what happens when one starts shunning ideas and/or comedy, because it might disagree or hurt group feelings. instead of engaging with the dialogue.

It's always going to be the first one when the entity is a private corporation, as that has real implications on real people (white supremacists, Qanons, anti-vaxxers, etc).
You're not entitled to free speech in a corporate space. If you want to spread misinformation, you're welcome to do it in your own website with your own hosting company.
 
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jetflag

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It's always going to be the first one, as that has real implications on real people (white supremacists, Qanons, anti-vaxxers, etc).
You're not entitled to free speech in a corporate space. If you want to spread misinformation, you're welcome to do it in your own website with your own hosting company.
I don't think those three fall in the same catagory at all m8, but that aside to each their opinion :) I will say that me, my wife, her family and everyone else who has ever lived under an oppressive regime that punished people for wrong thing and/or comedy of the established order kinda disagree with you on that. And sure, any private company can dictate its own rules and limits as they please. As long as there isn't a monopoly present I don't take issue with that so don't quite see how that's relevant for this discussion specifically?
 

dmgtz96

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I don't think those three fall in the same catagory at all m8, but that aside to each their opinion :) I will say that me, my wife, her family and everyone else who has ever lived under an oppressive regime that punished people for wrong thing and/or comedy of the established order kinda disagree with you on that. And sure, any private company can dictate its own rules and limits as they please. As long as there isn't a monopoly present I don't take issue with that so don't quite see how that's relevant for this discussion specifically?
That's the difference. You're talking about the government, which can't be equated to a corporate entity.
Edited my previous post to refer specifically to private corporations. (And honestly, the same applies to "public" companies that did IPOs). I never intended to reference governments.
 
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jetflag

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That's the difference. You're talking about the government, which can't be equated to a corporate entity.
Edited my previous post to refer specifically to private corporations. (And honestly, the same applies to "public" companies that did IPOs). I never intended to reference governments.
Ah gotcha, bit of a misread on my part aswell sorry. Concerning your edit then: yeah i fully agree. I actually don't really see it as much of a systemic problem even unless like said they'res a monopoly present, if there isn't and there's a market for it something or someone will, sooner or later, come round to fill the void :) . Its already happening with things like Parler or Bitchute who take on those unwanted on twitter or youtube :)
 
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dmgtz96

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Ah gotcha, bit of a misread on my part aswell sorry. Concerning your edit then: yeah i fully agree. I actually don't really see it as much of a systemic problem even unless like said they'res a monopoly present, if there isn't and there's a market for it something or someone will, sooner or later, come round to fill the void :) . Its already happening with things like Parler or Bitchute who take on those unwanted on twitter or youtube
Even 8chan was picked up (by the Russians). Those places are scary as f, though. I don't think there's a left-wing equivalent.
Can't really blame regular sites for kicking out people like that. Past a certain point they stop being "right-wing" and legitimately become anti-human.
 
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jetflag

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Even 8chan was picked up (by the Russians).

I'm not the least bit surprised. Russia will embrace anything “internet” that they can get their hands on apart from things like pedo sites. After the whole NATO block/sactions debacle they honestly don’t care that a bunch of Yankees from the midwest want to believe that melanine levels are somehow a measurement for human superiority and set up onlineshop for grouphugs.

Those places are scary as f, though. I don't think there's a left-wing equivalent.

Not in that particular Hub sense no, but that’s not because there isn’t many of them (in fact there’s far more radical left wing extremism then right comparitivly). The difference is thats its just far more even widespread and generally tolerated as opposed to being focussed in a single (set of) cluster(s) and shunned by the rest of society.

The reason you don’t see single large clusters filled with exclusively radical Leftwing plaform-users calling for things like : Death to white people/#killallmen/ down with the west, (Think of things like *insert radical black identitarian movement, The Terfs, Tankie groups etc.), is because the overwhelming majority of social media platforms are ideologically rather left leaning in their company setup (so basically the whole of Silicon Valley + China’s TicToc). Which results in them being far less 0 tolerance when it comes to those ideologies and in most cases will simply just allow it, maybe with the exception of the Terfs who have been cancelled a lot in recent years.

So Its not necessary for those “fringe elements” of the left to cluster or setup their own online spaces (though it does happen here and there), as they can simply use reddit, facebook, discord you name it as a meeting ground. Hence you don't see thinks like a large bread-8Chan forum. [/QUOTE]


Can't really blame regular sites for kicking out people like that. Past a certain point they stop being "right-wing" and legitimately become anti-human.

yup, fully agreed, My only beef with it is the hypocrisy. When someone calls for the death of whatever group or individual, they should be kicked. Regardless, Instead of the now often: “well the Marxist gets a pass as just being edgy when he says that but a 4chan troll will get him banned because he serious! and I can read minds, Somehow” policy.

To use a dutch phrase: Gelijke monikken gelijke kappen.
 
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Hensmon

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@jetflag, as far as the UK is concerned the radical 'extreme' left appear mostly to be a naive and misguided younger generation, with a misplaced sense of injustice and fans of some stupid social policies and ideas on things like gender, or reactionary labelling i.e 'Trumps a facist'. On the other hand the radical 'extreme' right are so fear beaten, with a misplaced sense of anger, that they drive cars into groups of people who are different from them (which happened 10 mins from my house in 2018), or pick up machine guns and start mowing people down like that guy in New Zealand last year. The extreme nature of the pink hair SJW ranting on twitter does seem less of a worry to me I have to say.

I find this whole 'extreme' labelling utterly ridiculous if i'm honest, lacking substance and feeling like regurgitated sound-bites from a soap-opera media too embedded in identity politics. It's rhetoric void of nuance and never considered within its localised or contextual Overton window, which is crucial to the debate. It's how the Americans convince the public that free healthcare is some sort of scary 'health communism', whilst at the same their neighbours in the north implement the same idea with better results, for a fraction of the cost. Or how UK conservatives think banning assault rifles and small fire-arms is a good idea, yet US conservatives unthinkable.

In the UK we saw the same thing in our last elections as the sentiments of 'radical left' policies from the 'extreme left' politician in the UK (Corbyn) were painted to us by the gutter-press, fear-beating anyone that would listen. Key manifesto policy;

- A taxation policies that still put us well below all Western European countries and even the U.S
- Stop pointless foreign wars and arms sales to the saudis aka terrorist funders
- Nationalisation of industry, something we already do, have done, and is done all over the world
- Free education (done by many countries and us before)
- Pay increase for public sector
- Invest into public services, rather than cut from them
- Pro environmental policies

Not only are the ideas plainly un-radical, but they even fit boringly within the context of both historical British politics and world-politics a like. You see how this labelling is ridiculous and detached from reality? How can we take such claims of extremism seriously and not think right-wing rhetoric a joke and not crippled by irrational fear? Whats worse is it seems obvious that the thinking is manufactured, as a means to keep the consolidation of power of the establishment firmly in place and quash its threats. Where's the integrity behind this idea of the scary Marxist take-over?