Woke culture and its effects on society

Hot Tuna

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some reason? I would think catastrophic state mismanagement of resources and personel during a health pandemic in one's state isn't just some reason. Nobody argues sainthood of anyone here.

the problem/ point is and was that she was chosen for her identity, not her competence

[citation needed]
 

jetflag

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[citation needed]
Aside from Biden’s signed affirmative action order which post-hoc saw her installed..
From the offical government statement quote: “She is poised to become the first openly transgender federal official to be confirmed by the U.S. Senate.”

right...If her transgenderism was such an alleged non issue as is being purported, and she’s chosen purely for her competence as a state health secretary, (which is presumably why in 2020 the state senator called for her resignation after the aforementioned managing of the crisis there..)

1 why choose her?
and then
2 include that in the statement?


like, what are you (pedantically) asking me for here precisely? A scientific peer-reviewed paper or written government document that precisely reads "we hired her for her being trans?" you don't have to be a Q shaman to put those blatantly obvious dots together do you? 😅

- a very (far left) pandering government, (at least in tone, bidenv1 actually seems quite reasonable in some recent decisions/policies)
- affirmative action executive order(s)
- calls for resignation from her local governor after mishandling a health crisis in her state
- a government statement applauding the fact that its the 1e trans person to be confirmed by the U.S. Senate, As if thats in anyway relevant to the function...
 
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jetflag

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I can mirror some of the stuff Tuna is saying. I went to one of the most ‘liberal’ arts universities in the UK, in a very liberal town, we all came out just fine. It turned us into weed warriors not social justice warriors. We still all thought we could change the world, with big (left) ideas, hating inequality, injustice, environmental destruction etc. That is completely normal behaviour for youth at universities, Peterson himself states that personality types on the left are far more likely to got to university, for instance. So why then use anecdotes of that expected behaviour and become so outraged when it happens, as if it’s proof that the very fabric of our society is collapsing under some marxist takeover?

Its also not a rebuttal to the idea that the universities have incrementally become more left and Woke. Infact, your argument is pretty much in support of it.

The fact that you (and I when i was still quite lefty and in uni) came out good on the other end is no rebuke of Woke culture's increased influence and damaging impact on society. It just tells you that people who're more closely alligned to it (like more left leaning uni types) are less affected by it due to ideological sympathies, which is pretty self-evident.

To reverse your Christian upbringing analogy back to you. Imagen yourself instead of being more left leaning to being a person far more succeptible and sympathetic to Catholic doctrine, You probaly would be here applauding it, instead of using it as a negative example of a manipulative ideology/doctrine.

you a very liberal guy, who went to a very liberal universtity which was a breath of fresh air from the christian upbrining you hated. And had a great time..
ok? thatsnot a rebuke of the idea that when a powerfull ideological force has declared (x) group their enemy and targets them on multible levels of society, so not just uni and that it affects that group negatively in terms of mental health.


There’s flexibility in the way students (and people in general) take on the ideas, they believe what they want to believe, good or bad, they learn and change anyway. I was also taught a module on post-modernism and I can assure you all the concerns and pressures I had in university as a young man not a single one of them stemmed from the ideas taught in those lessons. My friend group from that place is 30+ people, all of which are on the left, none of which feel too strongly about the current identity politics stuff. I would say they agree with some ideas and are heavily critical of other aspects of it. It's another example where a dominant idealogical force is easily reputed or fleeting, or malleable in how its adopted.

That's why I brought up my religious education/upbringing before. Not as a comparison to 'which one is worse' as you responded Jetflag, but as proof that hugely powerful idealogical forces can be easily abandoned or ignored, just like what happens regularly at universities.

hugely powerfull idealogical forces can easily be abandoned or ignored.. No, i think thats a profoundly inaccurate and frankly inresponsbile statement frankly..

I can name you plenty of hugely powerfull idealogical forces that made their way to the echelons of government that wheren't so easily abandoned or ignored.. I wonder for instance what the aforementioned lgbt movement that @Gagi mentioned or the jewish people would feel about that statement being presented to them?

And if that was the case and it affected them and others negativly as a whole, why not western males?

this isn't just about campuses, if only it stayed there...
There are absolutely examples where identity politics is going too far in Universities, and that’s not good. But as Tuna mentioned if you step away from the social media matrix you can separate those anecdotes from what is a real world majority context, and all of a sudden the problems being listed (although real) become more nuanced and placed much further down the list of what’s damaging our society.
Anything that happens in universities filters through to society 5 years later. which is why we now have ever large (capitalist) corporations (forcefully) in favor of (aspects of) the overall Woke agenda at risk of cancellation, which is why we things like race theories being suggested for basic elementary schools telling pale skinned children they're the oppressors and black skinned children they're the victims, which is why there was only one gender-reassignment clinic in the US in 2007 and now more then 300 aswell as a 30fold(!) increase of refferals too said clinics, much of them preteen children..

etc. etc.

i've said it once and i'm saying it again. I think you and Tuna for that matter are downplaying it and the negative effects (I at the very least) keep seeing popping up, presumably because you at some level sympathetic to its (lofty) goals and agree with (some) aspects of it. Which presumably is also why I keep seeing attempts at shifting the goalpost. Now i hope i'm and could be wrong, but thats what it comes across as
 
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jetflag

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What a situation we have arrived at where Biden's grey, bland, boring centrism is seen as "very far left".
the same situation where Race theories, Affirmative action, Equity and Identity politics are seen as apparently "centrist" by the same people who can't detect any signs of Woke culture in the universities.

We truly live in an age of post-truth it seems..
 
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jetflag

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@Hot Tuna I think at this point its not an understatement to say that we both have different conceptions of what is and what isn't woke / woke culture.

i think we can agree on that much:

so to break the ice a bit. What do you consider to be Woke/ Woke culture?
 
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dmgtz96

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All right, so it's taken me a while to respond because I needed to be more cold-headed. I was too hot-headed with my last comments.

I certainly don't disagree with your statement on tribalism. Its a dangerous concept, but has been ingrained into humans since the dawn of time. I don't see it vanishing anytime soon. That's one reason why things in my country and rapidly going down hill. Decades ago, people were more united. Now, people are more divided than ever. Doesn't help that the media plays into the tribal like mindset. This further encourages the divide.
The civil rights and feminist movements also happened decades ago. I'm not sure which specific time period you are referencing. Life in the US pre-civil rights was awful for anyone who was not white. Things changed for the better for a bit after that, but then you had the AIDS epidemic in the '80s (vs. LGBT+).

I personally don't have an answer for that. I know the LGBT community has faced a lot of hardships in the past, and I'm certainly happy that LGBT people now don't have to live in fear here in the USA. I've always supported their right to marry and to just be left alone and viewed as people. That being said, some of the most hateful and bigoted people come from the LGBT community. Not to mention you have many from that community that are taking advantaging of their "status" and using it to force their views on the general population.
I've seen quite a few posts on reddit stating that the LGBT community is fairly toxic. I can't comment first hand, since I'm not part of it, and reddit is not representative of the whole, but that is interesting to see.

yeah that totally doesn't come across as you being massively tribal and uncharitable towards the people you're having a discussion with in this thread m8 😅

I've seen you do this in other topics of simillar contention aswell where you all of a sudden refer to the third person or the "them". As if we're not all able to watch it.

come on. you're better then that I hope.
I interpreted @Hot Tuna's original comment as aimed toward the general online population that would complain about a trans person being elected or appointed for office.

How does a trans person in a government position affect you? What is it about that that makes you upset?
Onto your comment:
1 The fact that the position given is based on identity. Not merrit.

And
2 the fact that because its a government position.. it involves legislation and law that do directly affect whatevers below.. which is now being drafted by someone who's not there because of great work and/or credentials, but because its the right minority group.

I couldn't give two squats about a persons sex, prefered sex or transition for that matter. as long as he. she or "zer" isn't put there because of and only because of said transition.
We would have to know what other candidates she would have competed against. Credentials-wise, Rachel Levine isn't lacking. She completed her undergrad at Harvard, then did her medical school at Tulane and residency/fellowship at Mount Sinai. Now, I'm not too familiar with the prestige of Tulane and Mount Sinai, but what I can tell is that by that point her identity wouldn't have mattered. No special treatment in medical school just because you belong to X group (Latino, African American, LGBT, whatever). You graduate because you're qualified to become a doctor.
After her training, she started her career in Pennsylvania, established an entire division/clinic. Then she was appointed for a few state government positions (Physicial General, Secretary of Health) and was finally nominated by Biden for assistant secretary for health.
In my opinion, the right is being too unreasonable with her.

@Atragun91091, since you requested it. For context, here are the things Rachel Levine could have done:
  • Have nursing home look after the COVID patients (best outcome)
  • Have COVID patients take up hospital beds, taking up resources for those who are actually dying
  • Throw COVID patients to the streets, leading to their inevitable death
Now, Rachel likely was partly responsible for the difficult decision of returning COVID patients, but she is not responsible for all the deaths. She basically had a trolley problem in her hands. Of course she's going to get flak for it.
 
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dmgtz96

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Why?

Are western men "ubermenschen" who can take it better according to you?
Does the aforementioned abuse impact an individual less because the overall group is bigger and if yes on what do you base that?
Are minority group males, women and gays just weaker maybe?

Whats your justification for assuming the impact is greater for all of them but bizarro somehow non existent/lesser for western men?
No, I was not saying the impact was non-existed/lesser for western men. Let's go back to Aruna Khilanani, the psychiatrist that fantasized about killing white men. She was universally panned across the political spectrum. Everyone knows that's not okay.
Now, take someone who preaches hatred, mocking, stigma against marginalized groups. That's kind of personality can get you a sweet deal with Fox News and even more insane alt-right groups.

Anything that happens in universities filters through to society 5 years later. which is why we now have ever large (capitalist) corporations (forcefully) in favor of (aspects of) the overall Woke agenda at risk of cancellation, which is why we things like race theories being suggested for basic elementary schools telling pale skinned children they're the oppressors and black skinned children they're the victims, which is why there was only one gender-reassignment clinic in the US in 2007 and now more then 300 aswell as a 30fold(!) increase of refferals too said clinics, much of them preteen children..
It's pretty cringy when corporations do stuff for LGBT month, but...
Are you talking about Critical Race Theory? That's not an accurate description of CRT.
 
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dmgtz96

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What do you consider to be Woke/ Woke culture?
Woke is that very annoying classmate that points out racism, sexism, lgbtq phobia everywhere and gets some clout on campus but that practically no one in the real world cares about.
Woke culture is the environment in which wokes are in full display, so college campuses. Woke culture occasionally pops up in the mainstream in June to celebrate LGBTQ Pride Month because corporations want to make some sweet $. Corporate America likes the concept of woke and somehow tolerates 'woke' better than right-leaning views.

I would not be considered woke at my university @jetflag, I've met way worse. One of my colleagues was straight up ostracized for supporting Trump, even though he's Hispanic/Latino. The wokest members from one particular club quite literally threatened him on twitter and doxxed him, and other members from the club followed along. I was one of the few who stood by him, and we're still friends today.
In real life, I'm much more moderate. Wouldn't really say I'm a centrist, since in the US you can't get anything done by being a centrist.
 
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jetflag

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All right, so it's taken me a while to respond because I needed to be more cold-headed. I was too hot-headed with my last comments.

same here, no worries m8, its a contentious topic in any case. I often need to cool down a bit aswell as this strikes somewhat personally..
I interpreted @Hot Tuna's original comment as aimed toward the general online population that would complain about a trans person being elected or appointed for office.
Fair enough, but to follow up on my critique, its also not very chartitable towards those, I Don't think most people in general there aswell have a problem with the fact that its is trans person. They have a problem with selection procedure that seem to (undeservidly) favor X minority on the basis of identiy, rather then merrit. most people don't care what is or isn't between someone's legs. as long its competence driving the procedure, not identity.
But I could be wrong on that, it’s the case for my part at least.


Now, Rachel likely was partly responsible for the difficult decision of returning COVID patients, but she is not responsible for all the deaths. She basically had a trolley problem in her hands. Of course she's going to get flak for it.


I agree with that she was dealt a rough hand, I also don't think atragun or anyone else for that matter made the factual case that she single handidly killed them all, (and if you do manage to scoop up one, that person is an idiot and wrong) But I would make the case that she could have done better, mismagaging supplies isn’t something you can blame on Covid. The question was why was she chosen out of all candidates, if her transness (an identity that has nothing to do with her competence) wasn’t á or the reason/factor?

For instance, Kathleen Toomey, Georgia department of public health commisioner there since 2019, did and does (slightly) better then Pennsylvania in cases and deaths compartivly and also seems to have the supply chain better managed. Why not her if her track record concerning the pandemic is (albeit slighly) better? I refer to my reaction to Tuna at the top of page 5.


No, I was not saying the impact was non-existed/lesser for western men. Let's go back to Aruna Khilanani, the psychiatrist that fantasized about killing white men. She was universally panned across the political spectrum. Everyone knows that's not okay.
Now, take someone who preaches hatred, mocking, stigma against marginalized groups. That's kind of personality can get you a sweet deal with Fox News and even more insane alt-right groups.
well, these where your exact words: “The same can be said for minorities and women. Hatred, mocking, stigma will affect marginalized groups much more than the Western heterosexual white male.”

hence my question why you assumed that was the case. But if you don’t think that’s the case, that would lend credence to the idea that woke culture and its stigmatization does negatively impact Western heterosexual white male suicide doesn’t it? You shifting the goalpost to “yes but fox news and its hatred of minotities (which is something for another debate if you like) isn’t a rebuttal.

Are you talking about Critical Race Theory? That's not an accurate description of CRT.

yeah it actually is, if you scrape of the legalese wallpaint and pritsticked camouflage of altruism...

From the 1995 university textbook “Critical_Race_Theory_The_Key_Writings_that_Formed_the_Movement”:
(so basically CRT’s bible) These are what are (straightforwardly) described in the introduction as the shared foundations on which all variants of CTR rest. Quote:

“The first is to understand the regime of white supremacy and its subordination of people of colour, which has been created and maintained in America. And in particular to examine the relationship that the social structure and professed ideals such as The Rule of Law and Equal protection.
The second is a desire to not merely understand the vexed bond between Law and Racial power but to change it”


Notice the following two things having been presupposed here:

1 that there ís a regime of white supremacy (so pale skinned children are the oppressors and black tinted children are the victims) and
2 that CRT is a way by which that alleged thing can be allegedly overthrown.

It is a set of ideas, That seeks to convince people to view the world through the Marxist lens (which all 5 authors openly identify as coïncidently) of oppression and inequality in which one subset group (The proletariat, German people, USA citizens with dark skin) is oppressed or inhibited by another subset group (The bourgeoisie, The jewish peril, USA citizens with white skin), It shares disturbingly familiar material with the works and movements that formed the U.S.S.R, Third Reigh, Peoples republic of China, La República de Cuba etc. under a veneer of legal theory, and it openly presupposes and prostelitizes the idea of White supremacy. An idea which (but that’s my racist opinion lol) should be utterly and 100% rejected.

The difference is CRT (unfoundingly) presupposes it as a negative, whereas Hitler (unfoundingly) presupposed it as a positive.

They are however, both Race theories. Both reject the idea that all humans, regardless of their skincolour, are the same and capable óf the same. And seek to ascribe the discrepancies in (a prefered) group distribution of wealth and power to skintone, rather then for instance culture.

So when I say “race theories being suggested for basic elementary schools telling pale skinned children they're the oppressors and black skinned children they're the victims” I’m not obfuscating, but telling the truth and accurately portraying critical race theory for what it is and what it does.

Woke is that very annoying classmate that points out racism, sexism, lgbtq phobia everywhere and gets some clout on campus but that practically no one in the real world cares about.
Woke culture is the environment in which wokes are in full display, so college campuses. Woke culture occasionally pops up in the mainstream in June to celebrate LGBTQ Pride Month because corporations want to make some sweet $. Corporate America likes the concept of woke and somehow tolerates 'woke' better than right-leaning views.

I would not be considered woke at my university @jetflag, I've met way worse. One of my colleagues was straight up ostracized for supporting Trump, even though he's Hispanic/Latino. The wokest members from one particular club quite literally threatened him on twitter and doxxed him, and other members from the club followed along. I was one of the few who stood by him, and we're still friends today.
In real life, I'm much more moderate. Wouldn't really say I'm a centrist, since in the US you can't get anything done by being a centrist.

oh sure, and just to be clear I’m not “accusing” you of being woke or anything and even if you where, that be fine. (I would just fundamentally disagree with you on things like ethics, economics, virtues of fairness vs equality etc. and we could have a good ol chat about it…)

now as for what you describe as woke/woke cultures, I would say that’s a fairly innocent and surface level analysis (albeit accurate in its manifestation). And fair enough in and of itself... but in my question I was referring more to the philosophy behind it and, coming from that, the activism/policies it espouses.

So back to your example, I’m interested in why, according to you or Tuna, does that annoying classmate behave the way he she does? What is driving her to seek out problematic things left right and centre? And what policies (in relation to the biden example) can be accurately designated as falling under the Woke banner?
 
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dmgtz96

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Politics is boring and I still don't understand this woke and cancel culture stuff.
That's a vibe

So back to your example, I’m interested in why, according to you or Tuna, does that annoying classmate behave the way he she does? What is driving her to seek out problematic things left right and centre? And what policies (in relation to the biden example) can be accurately designated as falling under the Woke banner?
Hm, I'm no expert but I think a big part stems from people's inaction/apathy toward problems in society. Most people in college are just trying to get by with their classes, professional development, and such, but a loud minority wants to fix those issues. Whether those issues need to be resolved is a different discussion. Usually these are things like:
(warning: sensitive topics ahead)
  • Calling out "rape culture" on campus and society. Let's face it - we're men, and we know that some men are creepy enough to take advantage of random drunk female students. Not sure how European countries have it, but that would certainly happen in Mexico and the US. I do remember being notified that campus police was looking for a "stocky white guy with jeans" who presumably raped someone at a party.
    • The rapist could have been of any race - that was just the police description given to us
    • See the Stanford rapist Brock Turner, who basically got a slap on the wrist for raping a woman behind a dumpster (6 months jail + 3 years probation; left jail three months early for good behavior)
    • Despite what you see and hear on the headlines about Title IX, college campuses in general are very lenient on rapists. Most get away with it scot-free. You only hear about the most exceptional cases. There was one guy who faced an investigation during his last semester, so he graduated a semester early and never faced repercussions. The only "consequence" is that his transcript shows he raped someone.
  • Calling out obvious injustices against minorities
    • Police was a big one, and the George Floyd era inspired people to protest the university founder's statue
      • New information surfaced about the founder, that he owned slaves. That was pretty normal in the 1800s, but people were pissed and wanted his statue gone when the George Floyd protests were going on. Nothing ever happened, but George Floyd was the reason for the changes
      • In general, the student body distanced themselves from the name of the university founder by renaming events
  • Hypocrisy by administration/the school itself
    • Race-based: boasting about how "diverse" the school is, but then the diverse students are all from rich backgrounds and there are few/almost no low income/socioeconomic status (SES) students. No/limited resources are available for SES students to help them keep up with students from more affluent backgrounds. Inadequate career guidance for low SES students.
    • School mission, principles... this sounds vague, so let's use some examples
      • Promised to perform edge cutting research for the environment, but the career fair has a bunch of oil and gas companies. No effort is made to bring in companies from other industries
      • School is a place where you can change the world and do great things -> graduates end up working for McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, Facebook, Google, etc. sketchy places that have a questionable value to society, but pay their graduates damn well
        • Also, coincidentally the graduates that end up with the best jobs are not low SES students.
That's all I can think of for now. It's a long post. If I remember something else, I'll reply again to this thread.
 

jetflag

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well that a list of (real) problems alright, but thats not what I asked exactly or meant to ask at least

What train of thought is driving her to seek out problems, (non) problems or even invent ones? And with that you can think of things like "the pronoun problem" or the "cisbinairy problem" or even more mainstream ones like the gender earnings gap.

what is the ideological/ philosophical driving force behind it? and as such, which policies stem from that and can be designated as woke.
 

dmgtz96

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well that a list of (real) problems alright, but thats not what I asked exactly or meant to ask at least
I would argue they go hand-in-hand

What train of thought is driving her to seek out problems, (non) problems or even invent ones? And with that you can think of things like "the pronoun problem" or the "cisbinairy problem" or even more mainstream ones like the gender earnings gap.

what is the ideological/ philosophical driving force behind it? and as such, which policies stem from that and can be designated as woke.
In a lot of cases it's straight-up virtue signaling. I remember that one club claimed itself "woke," but all the club officers were white women, so they were (rightfully) called out on the school newspaper. My colleagues thought the same, that the most loudspoken ones are just virtue signaling.

It's time we hit up the Wiki and check out what "woke" ideas really are:
  • a rejection of American exceptionalism
  • a belief that the United States has never been a true democracy
  • that people of color suffer from systemic and institutional racism
  • that white Americans experience white privilege;
  • that African Americans deserve reparations for slavery and post-enslavement discrimination
  • that disparities among racial groups, for instance in certain professions or industries, are automatic evidence of discrimination
  • that U.S. law enforcement agencies are designed to discriminate against people of color and so should be defunded, disbanded, or heavily reformed
  • that women suffer from systemic sexism
  • that individuals should be able to identify with any gender or none
  • that U.S. capitalism is deeply flawed
  • and that Trump's election to the presidency was not an aberration but a reflection of the prejudices about people of color held by large parts of the US population
 
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jetflag

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I don’t know about that last one chief, Woke culture has been around a hell of a lot longer then Trumps presidency. That last one just seems like a huge Cope to me done by some Wiki editor who just couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that Trump didn’t win as much a Hillary lost in 2016. Most of those same “anti black” white people seemed perfectly fine voting Obama in for a second term 😅

that aside though.

based on that list of axioms and presuppostions I think we can identify a couple of policies as Woke, as opposed to centrist.


- any policy designed to radically alter america’s uniqueness in relation to other nations.

- any policy altering or encouraging chance of the us school curriculum in favor of “woke theory”

- any policy pro- affirmative action

- any policy that undercuts or tries to radically reform the (us) police institute.

- any identity-based policy as opposed to citizenship-based policy

- any policy that seeks to expand the legal and medical (age) restrictions and procedures concerning gender modification


Biden tics at least 4 or 5 of those boxes in terms of legislation and rethroric. So I think the analysis by Tuna of Biden administration being that of just grey, bland, boring centrism, is wrong. At the very least he's heavily pandering to the woke crowd/far left.
 
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dmgtz96

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I don’t know about that last one chief, Woke culture has been around a hell of a lot longer then Trumps presidency. That last one just seems like a huge Cope to me done by some Wiki editor who just couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that Trump didn’t win as much a Hillary lost in 2016.
Yeah, Wiki's not meant to be a super reliable source :p but we can use it as a first point of discussion before getting into more rigorous, academic analysis

Most of those same “anti black” white people seemed perfectly fine voting Obama in for a second term 😅
I was under the impression that most of the white voters for Obama were likely young, educated millennials working at urban centers. Can't really imagine Billy from rural Kentucky voting for Obama.
Biden tics at least 4 or 5 of those boxes in terms of legislation and rethroric. So I think the analysis by Tuna of Biden administration being that of just grey, bland, boring centrism, is wrong. At the very least he's heavily pandering to the woke crowd/far left.
Centrist is more like Tulsi Gabbard. What I don't like about people like her is that these are the people unlikely to get stuff done. You need strong convictions to get stuff done, whether that is large-scale social changes or passing tax cuts for the wealthy or whatever.
Woke crowd, far left is like AOC, "cancel student loans" crowd, Ilhan Omar, the Squad, that have lofty ideals but limited real life experience to carry out their plans.
 
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jetflag

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Yeah, Wiki's not meant to be a super reliable source :p but we can use it as a first point of discussion before getting into more rigorous, academic analysis

oh yeah more then happy too, I find it to be a good starter point, despite its lack of proper moderation.

What I find particulary telling about that specific list is (aside from the deep tone or resentment and hatred towards america/ white people) some of its points and tenets are (logically) in contractition with others, there's no need for consitancy it seems.

I was under the impression that most of the white voters for Obama were likely young, educated millennials working at urban centers. Can't really imagine Billy from rural Kentucky voting for Obama.
Sure, could be, and those same young white voters turned racist overnight when they voted trump in or what? 😅 look, ofcourse not everbody voted for obama, but the notion that trump got voted in because whites in the USA just hate blacks is utterly ridiculous. (not that most of those points in the list aren't, but this one stood out in particular. )

Had Hillary not played Cosy with the Woke crowd and identity politics types, she would have kept the Rust belt for the most part and she'd be President now. And its a nice example on how Woke doctrine definitly has real world consequences. Its not just some youngsters being creatively rebellious after being inspired by some marxist loon of a professor..

Centrist is more like Tulsi Gabbard. What I don't like about people like her is that these are the people unlikely to get stuff done. You need strong convictions to get stuff done, whether that is large-scale social changes or passing tax cuts for the wealthy or whatever.
Woke crowd, far left is like AOC, "cancel student loans" crowd, Ilhan Omar, the Squad, that have lofty ideals but limited real life experience to carry out their plans.

Large scale (positive) social change is something that needs to happen incrementally and preferably bottom up if you look at the course of history at least, and if you want it to be sustainable for that matter. Its not that Gabbard doesn't have strong convictions, her convictions just aren't radical and to an extend, destructive, She doesn't hate her country and is not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater if you will, and her ideas seem to be (to a large degree) in tune with the real world as far as I can see. Both of which cannot be said for the squad.

Radical top down policies (read: revolution) are a means that, more often then not fail, and/or acchieve the opposite of what was intended. This is something Wokeist like Cortez either get but don't care as its in their own political self interrest, or don't get. Trying to get rid of racism via a philosophy that is supposed to be anti-racist and sketches the white as superior and black as victim all the time, is by example one of those things that just isn't going to work the way you want it to (shockingly).

A recent example of that would be what recently happened in BLM movement and its effect it had on your average black US citizen, with its leadership deciding to abandon ship with large sways of money (such true empathetic marxist revolutionairies) and leaving the fomerly thriving black business owners on 38th street and Chicago Avenue, the place where Floyd died, abandoned and in ruins. They're now struggling for help with a massive surge in crime now that the police has been abolished in the new "peacefull" autonomous zone there.

thanks revolution(y) you've sure done a great job for black lives like you did in LA 1993, but hey, profesional millionaire althetes knelt this time, and Patrisse and Mann finally got their multible million dollar luxorious villa's so its fine.

lesson to take from this:

If large Corporations and Banks, are backing you with massive donations, you are not a revolution, and you are not a thread to the established power structure

You're a tool, a larpg, and a smokescreen. not genuinly interrested in helping to improve communities or eduction for in this case black USA citizens.
 
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Hensmon

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hugely powerfull idealogical forces can easily be abandoned or ignored.. No, i think thats a profoundly inaccurate and frankly inresponsbile statement frankly...I can name you plenty of hugely powerfull idealogical forces that made their way to the echelons of government that wheren't so easily abandoned or ignored

That’s exactly what I did during 10 years of schooling, easily ignoring and rejecting the ideology. Arguably at the most impressionable age period of my life. Same for my 2 brothers, 2 sisters and 99% of peers, who all came out atheists, maybe some agnostics. There's clearly a nuance and a spectrum to the extent of which idealogical ideas are adopted and acted upon by societies. Some are, some aren't, and with mixed extents and outcomes.

I didn’t hate religion, as you suggested btw, so that’s not a reason I didn’t adopt its teachings. I am not using it as a negative example of ideology, it’s just an example of how an idealogical force (the most powerful one in the west) was easily abandoned by myself and everyone I knew. Uptake of religion is declining rapidly in the west so I would say my personal experience is not unique and it demonstrates how we are not always and by default at the mercy of ideology. Men, by default, are not at the mercy of woke bus stops signs.

And I’m confused about who you specifically believe is most vulnerable to the woke teachings. You implied my (non-existent) hated of religion made me impervious to its idealogical force through schooling, but then also stated my compatibility with left ideas was what made me impervious to the woke idealogical force at university? So which is it, compatibility or rejection of idealogy that provides the protection? If it’s both, then who does that leave?
 
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dmgtz96

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Large scale (positive) social change is something that needs to happen incrementally and preferably bottom up if you look at the course of history at least, and if you want it to be sustainable for that matter. Its not that Gabbard doesn't have strong convictions, her convictions just aren't radical and to an extend, destructive, She doesn't hate her country and is not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater if you will, and her ideas seem to be (to a large degree) in tune with the real world as far as I can see. Both of which cannot be said for the squad.

Radical top down policies (read: revolution) are a means that, more often then not fail, and/or acchieve the opposite of what was intended. This is something Wokeist like Cortez either get but don't care as its in their own political self interrest, or don't get. Trying to get rid of racism via a philosophy that is supposed to be anti-racist and sketches the white as superior and black as victim all the time, is by example one of those things that just isn't going to work the way you want it to (shockingly).

I fundamentally disagree. Revolutions can work in some cases and not others.