Covid and vaccines and whatnot

dmgtz96

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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/winnipeg-police-hit-and-run-david-zegarac-1.6341667

David Alexander Zegarac is part of Manitoba’s Antifa Punk scene, The man’s the frontman and vocalist of o.a. Brat Attack, who has multible allegations running against him of sexual misconduct, including a 13 year old girl.
That's fucked up
Bit of a weird statement as there’s indigenous truckers in the freedom convoy. So I don’t know what you’re trying to get at with that? Trudeau as a prime minister was a hell of a lot more soft and open to dialogue in the 2020 railway blockades in Canada by indigenous protestors,
It's about the response by the police, not Trudeau. The police has been soft on the trucker protesters, but if they were indigenous the police would be much harsher. That's what tends to happen with minority populations everywhere.

and if they haven’t violated or broken any laws, wouldn’t that lend credence to the idea that this is, infact, a peaceful protest. Instead of an “insurrection” ? and that Justin now having to granthimself emergency powers to actually force an end to what is painfull legal nuiscance, is a rather dictatorial move?
I don't know if I would call the freedom convoy protest an insurrection. Insurrection is more like Jan 6th, 2021 at the US capitol. As far as I know, the truckers have mainly just annoyed downtown Ottawa (and a couple other major cities, but the truckers themselves only remained strong in Ottawa).
The trucker convoy is no longer a painful legal nuisance, but rather a serious, dangerous event with economic impact. From the perspective of Trudeau it makes sense even if it's just to restore economic activities and ensure border crossings are safe. The police weren't doing their job, which is why the act was needed.

One thing i've been doing to see whats actually doing on in these protest without media colouring (from both sides of the isle) is to just have the daily livestreams on while i'm working. Ottowa and Convoy alike. unfiltered, unacted, direct footage, by average Joe's. I'm not going to post the full livestreams here but there's plenty of clips to be found.

Holy shit that's some dedication. I wouldn't have imagined to live stream the area.
flat out not true eh?

Didn't know this, that is cool. It's woefully underreported. If the truckers had stuck to this as opposed to honking their horns all the time, they would have received far more support.
It might have something to do with the fact that, for some honest people who aren’t moral cowards” just following orders or contracts” in the sight of what is (or was) breaking up a legal and peaceful protest isn't a good enough reason.
In support of your argument, this interview with Mark Graves (Provincial Towing Association of Ontario president) shows the POV of a tow trucker and why tow trucking companies are not towing the freedom convoy trucks. To put it simply, it's not the tow trucking industry's problem.

nowhere in that article can I find anything about employees being threatened by truckers.
Good point. I don't think the truckers themselves have threatened the tow trucking company employees. But fear from the tow trucking companies is very real, as shown in the above interview with the tow trucker. The dangers in towing the truck also come from things like booby traps and wheel locks. That won't be an easy job for them. Another thing from the interview with Graves was:

There was no communication that I’m aware of with any towing companies or associations before the government made this announcement. Everybody has to be able to sit at the table and say, “Okay, what’s expected of us, and what pitfalls could there be as a result of doing what’s expected of us?”

Up until this morning, there has been one incident of the police lying to Ottawa Metro Towing in order to get them to remove vehicles from protest, hence them getting backlash which has since been resolved amicably by both parties.
That's pretty fucked up
you want people legally and peacefully protesting to freeze to death… my.. you're very pro police crackdown all of a sudden :unsure:
No, I just want someone that is going to try to solve the issue. Not by literally letting the protesters freeze to death, but at least to start negotiations and make the area safer.

Well I think in this longwinded post i've backed up my claims sufficiently including the childmolestor who rammed his car into the protest, See links above. And it doesn't at all surprise me that "official" sources and MSN don't or very scarsely report on that or other matter mentioned.

Which is precisely why i've been following the livestreams. as its very difficult to colour them to any prefered narrative. And which is why I think having these discussions, like the one's we're having now is important. you're not going to get the truth from the BBC or FOX anymore these days.
Yeah, official sources lack a lot of info and the more nuanced perspectives from the truckers and tow trucking companies.
 

jetflag

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God the way you two 'dissect' each and every line from one another is just insufferable lol.
look at it, !

LOOK AT IT!

giphy.gif
 
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dmgtz96

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More things about the convoy that haven't been discussed:
  • The convoy is being propped up by foreign money, as evidenced by the GiveSendGo data leak. Alt tech sites in general have poor cyber infrastructure/security, so it's no wonder their data was leaked. 43%, or $3.6 million USD in donations came from the US.
  • Head honcho Chris Barber was arrested, and after spending a night in jail he "wants go to home". He's basically a coward compared to other civil rights activists/head protesters in history.
  • The convoy has caused $ billions of damage. Crisis 24, a global risk management site, cites 500 million CAD ($392 million USD) in damages per day due to the closed border between Windsor and Destroit. No matter you pro- or anti-corporate you are, at that scale of economical damage something needs to be done. That's no longer a regular "uncomfortable" protest. Regular laws don't apply. Someone's head has to roll.
 
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dmgtz96

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I'm honestly really tired of digging up info about this :/ and at the end of the day, the vaccine/mask mandates that future freedom convoys will fight against will eventually be relaxed. Everything about this situation just feels like a lot of wasted effort for no real reason.

edit: corrected grammar mistakes

edit2: The paradox of tolerance is at the heart of this and related issues. Not every viewpoint needs to be tolerated by society. A society should reserve the right to be intolerant of intolerant views, no matter what libertarians say, no matter what so-called precedent it sets. What matters is the now, and if you have a problem now you need to solve it.
 
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jetflag

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It's about the response by the police, not Trudeau. The police has been soft on the trucker protesters, but if they were indigenous the police would be much harsher. That's what tends to happen with minority populations everywhere.
Again, there’s indigenous truckers in the convoy m8, aswell as immigrant, blacks, women *insert minority here. And even if that wasn’t the case Then what? Now the same government/police force is cracking down harshly on unarmed Canadian rural truckers aswell, smashing their windows in with AR15’s, and shooting point blank tear-gas. Do you think thats good?

again, I’m perplexed by your stance on this as a self proclaimed Liberal. Why you now all of a sudden defend a (tyrannical) government and its police lackeys that as you claim where “much more harsch” against minorities in the past? Which for arguments sake I’m even willing to grant you.

I don’t know about you. But I’ d rather see a government/police RESPECT their citizens and their given charter/human rights.. regardless of what skintone they have, instead of treating them both equally as dirt.


The trucker convoy is no longer a painful legal nuisance, but rather a serious, dangerous event with economic impact.
Dangerous...


It’s a event with music/dance and barbeques with families walking around :), peacefully protesting against a government who wants to infringe upon their rights, well at least up until now that is.. honking has now been declared “domestic terrorism”, basically on-par with an ISIS cell. :ROFLMAO: Very reasonable liberal stance wouldn’t you say? Not at all dictatorial in tone and tenure 👍

And mind you, this could have been avoided has trudeau simply sat down and talked to them. Which even his own government repeatedly asked of him.

The police weren't doing their job, which is why the act was needed.
Utterly backwards, the police where doing their jobs. If you have the right to peacefully protest in X country, then you can’t be arrested for that in X country. Period. That’s why Trudeau invoked the emergency act, not because the police didn’t do there jobs. They where. But that wasn’t good enough for trudeau. Why? Because its on his doorstep this time.

Isn’t it amazing? 😅Here’s the guy who was onboard and vocally supportive with every large protest movement under the sun no matter how far from home, Now that its in front of his palace however the mask instantly slips.

Here’s a local ottowa police officer speaking out.

No, I just want someone that is going to try to solve the issue. Not by literally letting the protesters freeze to death, but at least to start negotiations and make the area safer.
well I’m glad we agree on that. Which is why Trudeau is such a massive C word. The organization has reached out multible times, asking Trudeau to speak to them and even his own government did. They don’t want their Right to choose forcibly taken away from them last second, at the end of a pandemic where the whole world and their dog are opening up/lifting restrictions according to the latest science/ stats on the subject.

The only positive thing coming out of this is that his days as prime minister are likely numbered. He’s tanked in popularity, part of his own party is speaking out against him, its questionable if he survives vote of no convidence, and his government is currently being sued for misuse of the emergency act.


The convoy is being propped up by foreign money, as evidenced by the GiveSendGo data leak. Alt tech sites in general have poor cyber infrastructure/security, so it's no wonder their data was leaked. 43%, or $3.6 million USD in donations came from the US.
uh sure? 😅 There have been fundraisers around where ordinary citizens around the world can donate to a noble cause of their choosing for some time now m8… Happened with BLM, happens with whatever *insert cause here. Whats your point here? Should be only be available for "preferable" protests that you agree with? Or should fundraising next in line after peacefully protesting to be outlawed?

I’m sure the next prime minister will think that’ll come in very handy when he needs to get an oil pipe through Canada’s indigenous tribal territory

be carefull what you wish for.

The convoy has caused $ billions of damage. Crisis 24, a global risk management site, cites 500 million CAD ($392 million USD) in damages per day due to the closed border between Windsor and Destroit. No matter you pro- or anti-corporate you are, at that scale of economical damage something needs to be done. That's no longer a regular "uncomfortable" protest. Regular laws don't apply. Someone's head has to roll
I'll close by saying, on that last sentence we agree. Might I suggest however looking at the one who started this whole mess in the first place with his unsavoury remarks, utter distain for his own rural citizens, Mengele’ esq devotion to “the science” that isn’t in his favor or at the very least highly debatable/ government fiat.
 
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jetflag

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I'm honestly really tired of digging up info about this :/ and at the end of the day, the vaccine/mask mandates that future freedom convoys will fight against will eventually be relaxed. Everything about this situation just feels like a lot of wasted effort for no real reason.

edit: corrected grammar mistakes

edit2: The paradox of tolerance is at the heart of this and related issues. Not every viewpoint needs to be tolerated by society. A society should reserve the right to be intolerant of intolerant views, no matter what libertarians say, no matter what so-called precedent it sets. What matters is the now, and if you have a problem now you need to solve it.
cheers for the back & forth anyways as usual m8 🙏

* Edit on that last part. A society = not the state, nor its government. And if a society deems it intolerant, to, in this case, force vaccinations or medications upon people agains their will, they have the moral incentive and high-ground to rise up to said government, by force if neccesairy.
 
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dmgtz96

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Again, there’s indigenous truckers in the convoy m8, aswell as immigrant, blacks, women *insert minority here. And even if that wasn’t the case Then what? Now the same government/police force is cracking down harshly on unarmed Canadian rural truckers aswell, smashing their windows in with AR15’s, and shooting point blank tear-gas. Do you think thats good?
When you lose a protest, you don't comply with the police's orders to comply, and you get violent, that's the outcome. It's not good, but it is reality.

edit a couple hours later: the convoy was warned multiple times. It's not like the police escalated all of a sudden. What did the protesters think, that it's a game? All sunshine and rainbows?

again, I’m perplexed by your stance on this as a self proclaimed Liberal. Why you now all of a sudden defend a (tyrannical) government and its police lackeys that as you claim where “much more harsch” against minorities in the past? Which for arguments sake I’m even willing to grant you.

I don’t know about you. But I’ d rather see a government/police RESPECT their citizens and their given charter/human rights.. regardless of what skintone they have, instead of treating them both equally as dirt.
Honestly, we agree with the last statement. I would rather see the government and police treat everyone equally with respect. Unfortunately, time and again has shown that minorities are treated worse for much lesser crimes/less threatening protests. So, same doom for everyone it is.

Dangerous...


It’s a event with music/dance and barbeques with families walking around :), peacefully protesting against a government who wants to infringe upon their rights, well at least up until now that is.. honking has now been declared “domestic terrorism”, basically on-par with an ISIS cell. :ROFLMAO: Very reasonable liberal stance wouldn’t you say? Not at all dictatorial in tone and tenure 👍
ISIS could make a propaganda video as well. This couple of minutes, and that instance of the pizza are a small part of the 23-day occupation of Ottawa

And mind you, this could have been avoided has trudeau simply sat down and talked to them. Which even his own government repeatedly asked of him.
This is the part I don't understand. Why the heck didn't he meet with the protesters?

Utterly backwards, the police where doing their jobs. If you have the right to peacefully protest in X country, then you can’t be arrested for that in X country. Period. That’s why Trudeau invoked the emergency act, not because the police didn’t do there jobs. They where. But that wasn’t good enough for trudeau. Why? Because its on his doorstep this time.
At the very least, the police should have 1) de-escalated the situation, 2) ensured the area was safe for everyone, and 3) prevented the international blockade from happening. I will grant you that this protest is much more peaceful than that of, say, BLM. No buildings have been burned, though there has been property damage (unknown amount) and harassment (ex. towards employees of homeless shelter/food pantry mentioned earlier)
Isn’t it amazing? 😅Here’s the guy who was onboard and vocally supportive with every large protest movement under the sun no matter how far from home, Now that its in front of his palace however the mask instantly slips.

Here’s a local ottowa police officer speaking out.

well I’m glad we agree on that. Which is why Trudeau is such a massive C word. The organization has reached out multible times, asking Trudeau to speak to them and even his own government did. They don’t want their Right to choose forcibly taken away from them last second, at the end of a pandemic where the whole world and their dog are opening up/lifting restrictions according to the latest science/ stats on the subject.
Oh yeah, for sure, what the fuck. Again, this is all a lot of wasted effort on Trudeau's and the truckers' part. Just let them be and continue working even if they're unvaxxed, damn it. They're not a widespread risk to others.
The only positive thing coming out of this is that his days as prime minister are likely numbered. He’s tanked in popularity, part of his own party is speaking out against him, its questionable if he survives vote of no convidence, and his government is currently being sued for misuse of the emergency act.
Yeah, he'll definitely become unpopular. Not sure how time will remember him.
The lawsuit will be interesting to follow. I don't know anything about Canadian law, though it sounds like a lot of legal misinfirmation is circulating on the Internet. The lawyer of the video mentions the charter rights, but in Canada those charter rights are, in fact, limited. Canada's version of human rights is different from that of in the US, or in European countries (or Mexico, you name it).

R. v Oakes case:
“In each case courts will be required to balance the interests of society with those of individuals and groups.”
Ultimately, it will be up to the courts to decide if the emergency act was truly misused. If the courts decide it wasn't, and it really sounds like it was used properly, that should be the end of the story.

uh sure? 😅 There have been fundraisers around where ordinary citizens around the world can donate to a noble cause of their choosing for some time now m8… Happened with BLM, happens with whatever *insert cause here. Whats your point here? Should be only be available for "preferable" protests that you agree with? Or should fundraising next in line after peacefully protesting to be outlawed?
Good point. That was more of an observation, and less of a "this is obviously bad." Trudeau's government described the foreign donations as foreign interference, but they have not shown clearly what they meant by that.
I’m sure the next prime minister will think that’ll come in very handy when he needs to get an oil pipe through Canada’s indigenous tribal territory
yep
I'll close by saying, on that last sentence we agree. Might I suggest however looking at the one who started this whole mess in the first place with his unsavoury remarks, utter distain for his own rural citizens, Mengele’ esq devotion to “the science” that isn’t in his favor or at the very least highly debatable/ government fiat.
yeah, he really messed up by not meeting with the protesters. As much as I disagree with their opinion, they deserved to be heard (in the early stages of the protest anyways)
 
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dmgtz96

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* Edit on that last part. A society = not the state, nor its government. And if a society deems it intolerant, to, in this case, force vaccinations or medications upon people agains their will, they have the moral incentive and high-ground to rise up to said government, by force if neccesairy.
Yes, and that would be true if Canadians as a whole felt that way about forced vaccinations or medications.
In reality, the truckers in the protest only represent a minuscule amount of the trucker industry. According to Trudeau himself, ~90% of truckers are already vaxxed. The 10% remaining are not "society." As a whole, 2/3 of Canadians supported the use of the Emergencies Act. The intolerants here are the freedom convoy truckers, not the government. They've occupied downtown Ottawa for 3 weeks. They blockaded an international border, leading to $ billions of damage. Canadian society just doesn't like them or their methods of protest. The truckers have to go.
 

jetflag

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ISIS could make a propaganda video as well. This couple of minutes, and that instance of the pizza are a small part of the 23-day occupation of Ottawa
Yeah I think that's just ridiculous m8, Watch the lifestreams back at your convinience and convince yourself that these people are not in any way similar to ISIS and its manufactured propaganda. These are normal middel/lower income class people from mutible background who just want to be able to choose.

This is the part I don't understand. Why the heck didn't he meet with the protesters?
oh those deplorable plebs? Nah, don't you know he's above them? 😅 He's the prime minister for the worlds eyes and international, global affairs don't you know.

At the very least, the police should have 1) de-escalated the situation, 2) ensured the area was safe for everyone, and 3) prevented the international blockade from happening. I will grant you that this protest is much more peaceful than that of, say, BLM. No buildings have been burned, though there has been property damage (unknown amount) and harassment (ex. towards employees of homeless shelter/food pantry mentioned earlier)
yeah again, They DID 1) it was 2) how on earth are downtown police supposed to prevent international blockades from happening? 😅 make no mistake m8, this movement is all over the world now, Brussels, Finland, Isreal etc. and if you're talking about the bridge that was cleared fairly soon, The police are not a fault here. "the dear holier then thou leader" is in this case. I've looked into to the shelter "harassment" the main complaint was actually just them parking and honking. (which they later per request stopped) Which I find an absurd reason for the crackdown you're currently seeing.



Oh yeah, for sure, what the fuck. Again, this is all a lot of wasted effort on Trudeau's and the truckers' part. Just let them be and continue working even if they're unvaxxed, damn it. They're not a widespread risk to others.

Yeah, he'll definitely become unpopular. Not sure how time will remember him.
The lawsuit will be interesting to follow. I don't know anything about Canadian law, though it sounds like a lot of legal misinfirmation is circulating on the Internet. The lawyer of the video mentions the charter rights, but in Canada those charter rights are, in fact, limited. Canada's version of human rights is different from that of in the US, or in European countries (or Mexico, you name it).

Correct, the right to peacefully assemble and protest however is included afiak

Yes, and that would be true if Canadians as a whole felt that way about forced vaccinations or medications.
In reality, the truckers in the protest only represent a minuscule amount of the trucker industry. According to Trudeau himself, ~90% of truckers are already vaxxed. The 10% remaining are not "society." As a whole
except that what you're seeing isn't that 10%. its also the people. like me, who are vaxxed and believe taking that freedom and human right away is tyrannical. which it is. Plenty of vaxxed truckers at the rally. I believe even most organizers are.

This isn't about getting the jab. Its about the right to bodily autonomy.

look, we've been at this for 4(?) pages now, to hensmon shegrin :p I think we should call it. We're not going to agree on everything.

Good discussion, cheers.
 
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Magnevi

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Tuna thinks he is so important…

To make you shut it, let me simply confirm to you then: he has you in his “ignored profiles” list. And you are the only one in it.

Yes @jetflag. He repeatedly raises the question whether you “really” used that function, and types short off-topic replies with the only goal of getting on your nerves.
 
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Hot Tuna

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Tuna thinks he is so important…

To make you shut it, let me simply confirm to you then: he has you in his “ignored profiles” list. And you are the only one in it.

Oh, really? I must have missed the three separate occasions that he loudly boasted about doing this. Or the fact that he often subtly brings up things I've mentioned, which shows he's obviously still clicking to read my posts anyway. "Rent free", as I believe the cool kids say.

The obvious problem with his tactic, of course, is that while he can't see what I'm saying, the rest of the forum can. Such as when he embarrassed himself just a few posts back with the Russian vaccianation video that he immediately trusted 100%, but was very quickly pointed out to be a well-known fake, clipped from a comedy sketch show. I'm not interested in whether Jetlag saw this (he did, because he very subtly backtracked in the next post), I'm just happy that it gave several of us a good laugh.

Yes @jetflag. He repeatedly raises the question whether you “really” used that function, and types short off-topic replies with the only goal of getting on your nerves.

Lol, how mature. He knows, he is reading them anyway. And there's no point mentioning it, because, as we all know:

jetflag said:
I for one will not be engaging any further
 

jetflag

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Yes @jetflag. He repeatedly raises the question whether you “really” used that function, and types short off-topic replies with the only goal of getting on your nerves.
I am, and he's not.

I do find it a bit sad that I can deduct someone's position on (x) subject by merely reading other peoples reactions to "ignored user".

Its part of the reason I have him on ignore in the first place. There's nothing interesting or fruitful in trying to have a discussion with someone who's maxed out ideologically obsessed and doesn't want to have a discussion.

So despite his (apparent) screetching every now and again, i'm happily going to keep him on ignore and would much rather engage with people I can actually have a back & forth with on this forum :)
 

Gagi

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Yeah let's get away from the personal attacks or pointless bickering in general, from every side. It's not nice.
 
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jetflag

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Yeah let's get away from the personal attacks or pointless bickering in general, from every side. It's not nice.
True. So an olive branch here

Hot tuna if you're reading this. You're probably a good person for the people and community close to you, You probably a well functioning member of society with an exquisite taste in music (which is why you're on this forum) I'm just not interested in hearing what you have to say politically/ideologically anymore.

Thats all, wish you the best in everything else 🙏
 
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dmgtz96

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Life's mostly back to normal now
(at least, COVID-wise anyways... not to mention WW3)

@jetflag I didn't get to elaborate much about the concert in the other thread. It was PACKED, but... I didn't mind? The venue only required one of two things:
  • proof of COVID vaccination
  • proof of a COVID negative test within the past 48 hrs
I actually stood in line next to someone who was unvaxx. At first I felt a bit nervous, but then we had an awesome conversation. He treated me well, and I realized I was judging him too harshly.
Hopefully we can be back to ~2019 life and no crazy variants pop up.

edit: masks were strongly suggested, but not legally enforce-able in TX. So there was a mix of people wearing and not wearing masks.
 
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jetflag

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Life's mostly back to normal now
(at least, COVID-wise anyways... not to mention WW3)

@jetflag I didn't get to elaborate much about the concert in the other thread. It was PACKED, but... I didn't mind? The venue only required one of two things:
  • proof of COVID vaccination
  • proof of a COVID negative test within the past 48 hrs
those two measures seem perfectly reasonable to me, especially when you're talking about a private event instead of something state funded or vital. I am surprised they didn't add antibody tests to the list, as in
  • Had COVID, but recovered (and waited 48 hours)
I actually stood in line next to someone who was unvaxx. At first I felt a bit nervous, but then we had an awesome conversation. He treated me well, and I realized I was judging him too harshly.
Did he drive a Truck though?

JK 😛, Good to see people from all walks of life can still hang out and have a good time 👍

Hopefully we can be back to ~2019 life and no crazy variants pop up.

edit: masks were strongly suggested, but not legally enforce-able in TX. So there was a mix of people wearing and not wearing masks.
That would be great yeah, Mask mandates are still in effect here in places like hospitals they're handing clean ones out for free at the gates which you're required to ditch at the exit. (which you know, makes a hellofalotof sense even if COVID wasn't around, and i'm actually a proponent of keeping it that way)
 
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Hensmon

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Finally we have the first in depth study on vaccines and their effect on all-cause mortality. Un-surprisingly (for me at least) the situation appears to be far more nuanced than what we've been subject to in terms of debate in the last 2 years, and in equally hilarious and tragic fashion we find that the data vindicates BOTH anti-vax and pro-vax positions at exactly the same time.

"Randomized controlled trials show all-cause mortality reduction from the Covid adenovirus-vector vaccines (RR=0.37, 95%CI: 0.19-0.70) but not from the mRNA vaccines (RR=1.03, 95%CI 0.63-1.71)"

The conclusion is that:

1. Not all vaccines are the same
2. The Astrazenca vaccine is likely having beneficial effects not just for covid but other diseases too, causing a larger drop in total mortality.
3. The Pzifer and Moderna vaccinations are at best doing nothing to lower total mortality, with evidence to suggest it is actually causing MORE harm than good, via non-specific mechanisms. So even after attributing for people saved by vaccination the total deaths is potentially increasing (!)

A complete disaster for a mainstream media and public majority who has been vilifying anti-vaxxers for the past 2 years. Not only was vaccine hesitation reasonable, but now it appears completely warranted. But of course, hysteria that all vaccines are bad is also wrong, as they might be the most effective tool ever discovered to protect you. You cannot write this stuff. Dr Christine Benn who is responsible for the research, with 30 years studying non-specific effects in vaccines, recommends that anyone under 75 who is healthy should not be covid vaccinated. Classic.

You can see her discuss the study here, read a breakdown here or her TED talk from 4 years ago on non-specific mechanisms on vaccines (really interesting)
 
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