Covid and vaccines and whatnot

dmgtz96

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I think it's more like the US doesn't want a repeat of the nonsense that happened in Australia
 
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I find it funny how quickly we move on from topics like this, onto the next big thing, despite us finally being in a position to properly asses, to reevaluate, to repair our mistakes and to learn valuable lesson. The threat of global pandemics is still one for our future, but now that the dust settles and long-term evidence emerges, we are no longer interested, or worse, still cling blindly to the old presented 'truths’, with no shift in our reality.

First, we were told that covid for sure emerged from a Chinese wet market. Despite no evidence for this. Any other theory was not permitted, shut down.

Then the majority comes around and accepts that it was likely not of natural origin, and instead came from a lab. The Wuhan corona virus lab round the corner an obvious suspect. The former CDC boss, among other credential scientists, confirm the likeliness of this.

Now, nearly 3 years after the event, we have a major 2 year study, US led, suggesting that the research program responsible for the leak at the Wuhan lab is in fact US run (along with Chinese support). The ‘china-virus’, as Trump so keenly framed it, is looking more likely to be the ‘American-Chinese’ virus now.

If we had acted with humility at the beginning of this, accepting that alternative hypothesis’ on covid origin might have legitimacy, we would have been able to publicly and freely discuss in depth about the risks and morality of humanity creating virus’s like these. The focus would be on the science and the culpable. We would have evaluated lab practices around the world and no doubt addressed fundamental issues in these scientific practices. Who knows how many lives that would save in the future. Instead we ridiculed opposing views as conspiracy, we shut down discussions and created more social divide by doing so, and with our hindsight still offer observe no meaningful acknowledgment or apology, or attempt to readdress this new reality.
 
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jetflag

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^I agree with what you say in the end 100%.

That said however: "more likely" = not therefor it was, and one should be carefull not to adopt the same attitude towards the wet-markets as the point of origin, as this is still a very valid hypothesis.

Basically the Chinese wetmarkets in that area have a far greater chance of (random) mutation, due to the amount and scope of them, and 0 containment measures. they are "a lab" if you will, only without walls (or barriers for that matter)
 

dmgtz96

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The majority (of whom? ) accept this do they? Going to have to call "citation needed" on that one.
Yep, anyone with half a brain who was not into conspiracy bullshit did not believe the "COVID was man-made in a lab" farce.
 
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To be honest I haven’t seen a study on what the public believe, but I did find this which puts a US majority on lab-leak theory. Anecdotally I noticed a significant shift in my friends and family towards this theory, and it appears in overall media public discourse too. John Stewart going on the popular Daily Show is a good example and more left leaning papers in the UK switched position too. The British intelligence went from ‘remote’ to ‘feasible’ in the chances and the UK government is being reported by bio-security experts to believe lab theory is also most likely. We too have the US president calling it a “likely scenario”.

I don’t find any of this surprising, considering we have a corona-virus laboratory (with a history of leaks) immediately next to the outbreak. What is surprising, is the lack of willingness of people to pursue this reasonable and evidence based line of thinking. We even saw censorship if it was raised. It’s pure hubris, arrogance, stupidity (like the comment from the poster above mine).

Consider as well, that the first major report on the origins of the virus, the Lancet report, noted that patient 0 had NOT been in contact with the wet market. It also noted that no bats were at the wet market. So we have one theory with hugely significant consequential evidence, and another theory that is lacking evidence. Which should be our default starting position? Why was it so hard to consider the former?

On top of this, nearly everyone who has been in the best or closest position to critically examine the virus and/or its origin appears to be firmly landing on the lab-leak theory. This despite the well documented lack of transparency, cover-ups or suppression of the labs data. The latest 2 year study shows all this. Papers may use the mandatory scientific ambiguous terms like “feasible”, but we find their authors use terms such as “confident” and “proof”. The CDC boss says the same. 3 Nobel Laurette prize winners to add to the list. Renowned Biological Weapons expert also says the same. US Senator Rand Paul who has been active with the paper trails between the US and Chinese research program in the lab, is also coming to the same conclusion . As is with the truth, momentum will grow, not fade, and that’s what we are witnessing.
 
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jetflag

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What is surprising, is the lack of willingness of people to pursue this reasonable and evidence based line of thinking. We even saw censorship if it was raised. It’s pure hubris, arrogance, stupidity

Consider as well, that the first major report on the origins of the virus, the Lancet report, noted that patient 0 had NOT been in contact with the wet market. It also noted that no bats were at the wet market. So we have one theory with hugely significant consequential evidence, and another theory that is lacking evidence. Which should be our default starting position? Why was it so hard to consider the former?

Because Covid has, from the start. been more about politics that (actual) science, and demonetization of "the other"
 
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Hot Tuna

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...and blaming China for a careless leak rather than an unfortunate accident also has a greater political advantage for the west, so it's not surprising such stories appear in western media. The Telegraph, or "Torygraph", will often print any old bollocks fed it to by leakers inside No. 10.


I looked at this example; the article casts doubt on the market as the epicentre, but still assumes it occurred through animal-to-human contact elsewhere. As far as I can tell it has been cited just twice since 2020, so it didn't exactly make an impact.

Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? No. Viruses have mutated and epidemics/pandemics have occurred throughout human history long before we ever had biological labs. The logical explanation is still that it was just nature doing what nature does.
 
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Hensmon

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Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? No. Viruses have mutated and epidemics/pandemics have occurred throughout human history long before we ever had biological labs. The logical explanation is still that it was just nature doing what nature does.

Lol what? We can't just blindly accept that as the answer for covid, just because it's been true for other viruses in the past. You take everything on a case by case basis, how could we not? Whatever the evidence says is true, not predictions from trends.

Also we have lot of documented lab leaks, not just across the world, but also specifically in Wuhan lab! So where do you get 'unlikely' from? 51 leaks in the last 100 years according to wikipedia, and thats just the ones we know about, they'll likely be many more. Apparently around 150 zoonotic viruses out there. So it could be an even split actually if we play an odds game, but as I said thats not how you'd place your bets.
 
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dmgtz96

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We even saw censorship if it was raised. It’s pure hubris, arrogance, stupidity (like the comment from the poster above mine).
You don't get to play high moral ground / superior intellect.
We don't want unity with people like you.

Anyways, I look forward to when that "study" gets retracted.
 
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jetflag

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You don't get to play high moral ground / superior intellect.
We don't want unity with people like you.
yes actually. he does. And you're being an extremely petty tribalist. This isn't about your "owning teh evul whepubicans" by any dishonest means neccesairy. this about what is TRUE or not, not "Unity"

Anyways, I look forward to when that "study" gets retracted.
lol how? Its already a magazine publication m8. The lancet is one of the most respected medical journals out there. Only publishing material that has been rigorously checked /peer reviewed for its scientific intengrity.
 
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Hot Tuna

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All The Lancet has published from PD's post is an article that explores the possibility that human to animal (I meant animal-to-human obviously) transmission may have occurred in other locations before the Wuhan market. It has not published any lab-leak conspiracy theories.
 
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dmgtz96

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yes actually. he does. And you're being an extremely petty tribalist. This isn't about your "owning teh evul whepubicans" by any dishonest means neccesairy. this about what is TRUE or not, not "Unity"


lol how? Its already a magazine publication m8. The lancet is one of the most respected medical journals out there. Only publishing material that has been rigorously checked /peer reviewed for its scientific intengrity.
The Lancet retracted a paper on hydroxychloroquine.
And I'll be as tribal as I want to be, thank you very much
 
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jetflag

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The Lancet retracted a paper on hydroxychloroquine.
Very well, i'll add to my initial comment: "Its already a magazine publication without apriori Expression of Concern " though I suppose they technically could add that later, Both studies are in either case not in any way similar. So good luck wishing I suppose.
And I'll be as tribal as I want to be, thank you very much
aight then, mr pro science and objectivity.. just so you know that's now clear and out for the world to see.
 
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The Lancet report was the first major data set and analysis on the origin, and became the foundation for all wet-market and zoonotic conclusion across the entire British media landscape. I can’t speak for other countries. It cemented an early ‘truth’ for us. But that was a lazily scalped truth. I also found it to be slightly racist. We were very happy to believe that the backwards, bat eating Chinese were responsible, rather than look at the report ourselves and see it’s clear statement that patient 0 was not from the wet market. I did not start there.

Meanwhile a corona virus laboratory was too taboo to consider. Why? Hot Tuna you say confidently it’s possible but “unlikely”. Your statement is literally the exact opposite of what the US President, British Intelligence and many other respectable scientists and papers state. What exactly do you know that they don’t?

And as for the telegraph link. It’s just quoting a source from an individual, who first spoke to a different paper. I detest the Tories. it does not change the quote either way.
 
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British Heart Foundation report 30,000 more deaths than expected since pandemic began. Yes they have accounted for covid. Largest excess dearh levels in 50 years. Includes young people

The CDC now also openly studying the relationship between deaths and the vaccinated. Another topic, again completely taboo a matter of months ago, now discussed openly by our primary institutions, and with evidence to that shows a likely link of vaccines being the cause.
 
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jetflag

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Yes they have accounted for covid
Correct, they however didn't account for post-hoc Covid. (e.a. fatigue, diminished immume systems, vunerability etc.) As well as the flu virus stacking as a result of the lockdowns.

Yes. the study includes young people. but the overwhealming majority is still those falling in the vunerable catagority (70+)

and with evidence to that shows a likely link of vaccines being the cause.
Just like the Lab-leak hypothesis, potentially unaccounted side effects from vector/mRNA vaccinations seems like an obvious culprit (given the distribution scope ) But there hasn't been a defacto "likely" link (yet). So far there hasn't been any direct evidence linking the vaccines to the excess deaths. And (likely) correlation does not equal causation.

That said: its good that its being looked into, Leave no stone unturned.

But as mentioned in the Tate and UFO discussions i have with people here: Don't sell the Bear's skin before its actually been shot ;)
 
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Bobby Summa

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Correct, they however didn't account for post-hoc Covid. (e.a. fatigue, diminished immume systems, vunerability etc.) As well as the flu virus stacking as a result of the lockdowns.

Yes. the study includes young people. but the overwhealming majority is still those falling in the vunerable catagority (70+)


Just like the Lab-leak hypothesis, potentially unaccounted side effects from vector/mRNA vaccinations seems like an obvious culprit (given the distribution scope ) But there hasn't been a defacto "likely" link (yet). So far there hasn't been any direct evidence linking the vaccines to the excess deaths. And (likely) correlation does not equal causation.

That said: its good that its being looked into, Leave no stone unturned.

But as mentioned in the Tate and UFO discussions i have with people here: Don't sell the Bear's skin before its actually been shot ;)
I think the excess deaths may be Long Covid related. So many people have had Covid and only time will show its full long term effects ( if any) on individuals.
An HR guy at work is looking after a nurse who had covid I believe when it first arose( early 2020). Her long covid exhaustion is so bad, the most she can do in a day effort wise is 1 email. She hopes to be able to return in some way to work in 2 years.
- That’s proper fucked that is.
 

jetflag

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I think the excess deaths may be Long Covid related. So many people have had Covid and only time will show its full long term effects ( if any) on individuals.
An HR guy at work is looking after a nurse who had covid I believe when it first arose( early 2020). Her long covid exhaustion is so bad, the most she can do in a day effort wise is 1 email. She hopes to be able to return in some way to work in 2 years.
- That’s proper fucked that is.
yes. however one should also not underestimate the side effects of (vectorvax in particular) vaccines.


the biggest problem is afaik the specific identifaction marker linking the symptoms to either covid (and)/or vaccinations.
 
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Bobby Summa

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yes. however one should also not underestimate the side effects of (vectorvax in particular) vaccines.


the biggest problem is afaik the specific identifaction marker linking the symptoms to either covid (and)/or vaccinations.
Interesting article. Creating a SARS Covid19 spike protein in our body ( via the vector process) does sound a little open to risk if someone has an unknown issue with their body’s protein and enzymes. Enzymes can be problematic ( 20 years ago a test revealed i have a malfunctioning one but the specialist said it wasn’t bad, it has got me thinking tho)

found this article which is also interesting about spike proteins and cells and how reactions occur. Seems to indicate potential problems with the heart. Off course the hears main purpose is to pump blood round our body. If the heart is damaged m, can it increase likelihood of a clot? One would assume so, but not being an expert by any length at this topic its hard as usual to draw firm conclusions.

Heres article

I may run it by my pal who is an NHS medical scientist ( and… incidentally a massive trance music fan)
 
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