Covid and vaccines and whatnot

dmgtz96

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But as mentioned in the Tate and UFO discussions i have with people here: Don't sell the Bear's skin before its actually been shot ;)
I can't even argue with those because you're being consistent.

What's interesting is that this thread popped back up nearly the same day that a bunch of viral tweets/tiktoks appeared of charlatans blaming the COVID vaccine for their "conditions." Yes, the "Thanks, Pfizer" posts of older women shaking uncontrollably.

Curiously, only white conservatives are claiming that the COVID vaccine has made them shake uncontrollably, which is why they are getting trolled by everyone else on social media.

So there's still people posting in bad faith against the vaccines :/
 

jetflag

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What's interesting is that this thread popped back up nearly the same day that a bunch of viral tweets/tiktoks appeared of charlatans blaming the COVID vaccine for their "conditions." Yes, the "Thanks, Pfizer" posts of older women shaking uncontrollably.
The side effects of a Covid jab have been well documented, (even by Pfizer, after the initial sales pitch) There's no reason to, given that, assume that they're acting in bad faith and are actually experiencing/ have actually experienced said symptoms.
Curiously, only white conservatives are claiming that the COVID vaccine has made them shake uncontrollably, which is why they are getting trolled by everyone else on social media.
What's also interresting is you going on a completely offtopic race-grift again? :unsure:

So there's still people posting in bad faith against the vaccines :/
Yes there are..They'res also still people being unreasonably gullible towards Big pharma and their institutions, despite numerous warning signs popping up left right & centre continuously. The, Don't sell the Bear's skin before its actually been shot, phrase goes both ways.💡
 
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Hot Tuna

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British Heart Foundation report 30,000 more deaths than expected since pandemic began. Yes they have accounted for covid. Largest excess dearh levels in 50 years. Includes young people

I can't believe I still keep getting drawn into this bin fire of a thread, but this is an utter misrepresentation of what the BHF and these figures are claiming.

The 30,000 additional deaths story has been kicking around for several months and is attributed to additional deaths caused by Covid-related disruption to the health service, nothing at all to do with vaccines.

1. Here's the direct BHF source, which has absolutely no mention of vaccines:


2. Here's a fact-check of that article, which only suggests the figures varies due to Covid infection and not due to vaccines.

 
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dmgtz96

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The side effects of a Covid jab have been well documented, (even by Pfizer, after the initial sales pitch) There's no reason to, given that, assume that they're acting in bad faith and are actually experiencing/ have actually experienced said symptoms.

What's also interresting is you going on a completely offtopic race-grift again? :unsure:
Is it really an "offtopic race-grift" if it's a fact?

Okay, for some more context (because it does sound like I'm baiting white conservatives unprompted)

'Thanks Pfizer' Memes Shake Up Twitter As People 'Fake' Tremors After Covid-19 Vaccine

One Angelia Desselle shared a video of her legs appearing to shake uncontrollably. “This is me after 1 dose of Pfizer on 1/5/2021 in the hospital. I was a very healthy 45 year old who managed a surgery center. Two years later I am still having major issues," she wrote in a tweet. Her videos have been fact-checked by Twitter Readers.

You can go to her twitter page and from her tweets infer that she's a white conservative. Seriously, she re-tweeted about a " BOMBSHELL: New FOIA Documents Reveal the COVID Pandemic Was a DoD Operation Dating Back to Obama," which is hilarious. Yes, COVID was a DoD operation dating back to Obama. /s

No one, and I repeat, no one other than antivaxx white conservatives have posted unironically about how the COVID vaccine made them shake uncontrollably the same way as depicted in those tweets.
I'm not saying the vaccines are infallible or have no side effects. We have well-documented evidence of blood clots from the J&J vaccine. But the extreme "shaking" shown by Angelia and people like her is bullshit.
Let's just say, white conservative antivaxxers are a notoriously unreliablle demographic. You should take their tweets and "evidence" with a huge grain of salt.

Like, come on. I want you to see this "evidence" and then tell me with a straight face that it's not complete bs:

Yes there are..They'res also still people being unreasonably gullible towards Big pharma and their institutions, despite numerous warning signs popping up left right & centre continuously. The, Don't sell the Bear's skin before its actually been shot, phrase goes both ways.💡
In principle I would agree, but a lot of the big pharma skeptics are being fleeced by people like Angelia.
 
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Hensmon

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@dmgtz96 I don't understand why you follow or focus on this stuff. I'm not trying to be a dick here but I find it to be the most irrelevant, meaningless, social media click bait tribal internet nonense, its not worth even a second thought, analysis or discussion. Why get sucked into this internet soap opera stuff, its complete drivel. Do you really care what some wierdo on the internet is doing? Is this womens behavior really indictative of anything, or bringing any value to the topic?
 
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jetflag

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Is it really an "offtopic race-grift" if it's a fact?
its also a fact that so far only YOUNG BLACK MINORITY WOMEN, (e.o.w. candace owens) have tried to influence trump on becoming an antivaxxer.

the race, gender and status really, really, really matter in this context ^right?

You can go to her twitter page and from her tweets infer that she's a white conservative. Seriously, she re-tweeted about a " BOMBSHELL: New FOIA Documents Reveal the COVID Pandemic Was a DoD Operation Dating Back to Obama," which is hilarious. Yes, COVID was a DoD operation dating back to Obama. /s

No one, and I repeat, no one other than antivaxx white conservatives have posted unironically about how the COVID vaccine made them shake uncontrollably the same way as depicted in those tweets.
yes and no-one but YOUNG BLACK MINORITY WOMEN, (e.o.w. candace owens) have tried to influence a former US president and upcomming candidate of commander in chief of your country on becoming an antivaxxer

Tthe race, gender and status really, really, really matter in this context ^ right?

I'm not saying the vaccines are infallible or have no side effects. We have well-documented evidence of blood clots from the J&J vaccine. But the extreme "shaking" shown by Angelia and people like her is bullshit. Let's just say, white conservative antivaxxers are a notoriously unreliablle demographic. You should take their tweets and "evidence" with a huge grain of salt.
oh i will and i do, but you still haven't clarified what being white has to do with anything and/or why you place such a continuous emphasis on that when there are plenty of examples of *insert skin* here, being vocal, fraudulent, maniuplative or just plain cringe regarding vaccin's pro or against.

Like, come on. I want you to see this "evidence" and then tell me with a straight face that it's not complete bs:
I don't know if you've ever visited a hospital m8 but i've worked in one for 4 years and no, that^ isn't complete BS in and of itself. (it might be, but she's a damn good actor at that then). Following vaccination, NMAEs are common. headache and myalgia comprised the majority of that, but muscle pain/spasms are also not an uncommon, especially when combined with fever.

And that’s not even going into things like rare allergic anaphylactic shocks or benign fasciculation syndrome as a side effect of anxiety post-shot or people who already have the first onsets of Parkinson. (I'm noticing a medicine/ drip bag at her hips)

In principle I would agree, but a lot of the big pharma skeptics are being fleeced by people like Angelia.
Yeah i'm not so sure she's fleecing. she might be, but she obviously wasn't a vaccin sceptic before otherwise she would have never gotten that Pfizer jab now would she?

There's a very easy way to call her out on that specifically though...Ask her to show her vaccin proof (she should be able to get that from the hospital archives)
 

Hot Tuna

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@dmgtz96 I don't understand why you follow or focus on this stuff. I'm not trying to be a dick here but I find it to be the most irrelevant, meaningless, social media click bait tribal internet nonense, its not worth even a second thought, analysis or discussion. Why get sucked into this internet soap opera stuff, its complete drivel. Do you really care what some wierdo on the internet is doing? Is this womens behavior really indictative of anything, or bringing any value to the topic?

You don't think these exact words equally apply to the vaccine conspiracists in this thread too?
 
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dmgtz96

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@dmgtz96 I don't understand why you follow or focus on this stuff. I'm not trying to be a dick here but I find it to be the most irrelevant, meaningless, social media click bait tribal internet nonense, its not worth even a second thought, analysis or discussion. Why get sucked into this internet soap opera stuff, its complete drivel. Do you really care what some wierdo on the internet is doing? Is this womens behavior really indictative of anything, or bringing any value to the topic?
I'll be real with you chief, "this stuff" that is nonsensical has spawned some great memes making fun of the antivaxxers:


No hospital has confirmed Angelia's intense shaking symptoms.

its also a fact that so far only YOUNG BLACK MINORITY WOMEN, (e.o.w. candace owens) have tried to influence trump on becoming an antivaxxer.

the race, gender and status really, really, really matter in this context ^right?


yes and no-one but YOUNG BLACK MINORITY WOMEN, (e.o.w. candace owens) have tried to influence a former US president and upcomming candidate of commander in chief of your country on becoming an antivaxxer

Tthe race, gender and status really, really, really matter in this context ^ right?


oh i will and i do, but you still haven't clarified what being white has to do with anything and/or why you place such a continuous emphasis on that when there are plenty of examples of *insert skin* here, being vocal, fraudulent, maniuplative or just plain cringe regarding vaccin's pro or against.
I'll have to research more on Candace Owens' antivaxx influence, but from a quick glance it seems like Trump has been antivaxx since 2007:

"When I was growing up, autism wasn't really a factor," Trump told the South Florida Sun-Sentinel in 2007. "And now all of a sudden, it's an epidemic … My theory is the shots. We're giving these massive injections at one time, and I really think it does something to the children." He has repeated this theory on Twitter, television, and debate stages.

I don't know if you've ever visited a hospital m8 but i've worked in one for 4 years and no, that^ isn't complete BS in and of itself. (it might be, but she's a damn good actor at that then). Following vaccination, NMAEs are common. headache and myalgia comprised the majority of that, but muscle pain/spasms are also not an uncommon, especially when combined with fever.

And that’s not even going into things like rare allergic anaphylactic shocks or benign fasciculation syndrome as a side effect of anxiety post-shot or people who already have the first onsets of Parkinson. (I'm noticing a medicine/ drip bag at her hips)
Again, I'm not saying that side-effects aren't real. But that specific shaking is exaggerated. I would not underestimate how far antivaxxers are willing to go just to spread misinformation.
Yeah i'm not so sure she's fleecing. she might be, but she obviously wasn't a vaccin sceptic before otherwise she would have never gotten that Pfizer jab now would she?

There's a very easy way to call her out on that specifically though...Ask her to show her vaccin proof (she should be able to get that from the hospital archives)
Those are good points.
 
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jetflag

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I'll be real with you chief, "this stuff" that is nonsensical has spawned some great memes making fun of the antivaxxers:
ah.... HasanAbi "Thats it! America deserved 911" Piker. Nice to see such a genuinle honest and upstanding character still making a living of breadtube

at least the left somewhat learned to meme, i'll give him that. 😄
No hospital has confirmed Angelia's intense shaking symptom
"hospitals" usually don't do that, (her) physicians however should be able to.
I'll have to research more on Candace Owens' antivaxx influence, but from a quick glance it seems like Trump has been antivaxx since 2007:
yeah the point was dude, and why I posted those things in CAPS , is that its irrelevant on how black female or minority she is...what matter are her ideas/claims. in the same way that its utterly irrelevant if the person in question is white.

like, why do you place such emphasis on such utter irrelevancies as melonine levels in a discussion on vaccines?

would it made any difference to you if she was asian?

Here's trump urging his followers to get the jab by the way: Odd behavior from an antivaxxer.

Again, I'm not saying that side-effects aren't real. But that specific shaking is exaggerated. I would not underestimate how far antivaxxers are willing to go just to spread misinformation.
yeah not so much, I've actually seen far worse in the geriatric wing. That said yes. Antivaxxers do spread misinformation, uncontrollable shaking isn't one of them.
 

dmgtz96

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ah.... HasanAbi "Thats it! America deserved 911" Piker. Nice to see such a genuinle honest and upstanding character still making a living of breadtube

at least the left somewhat learned to meme, i'll give him that. 😄
TIL, I didn't know he fucked up that way lol
"hospitals" usually don't do that, (her) physicians however should be able to.

yeah the point was dude, and why I posted those things in CAPS , is that its irrelevant on how black female or minority she is...what matter are her ideas/claims. in the same way that its utterly irrelevant if the person in question is white.

like, why do you place such emphasis on such utter irrelevancies as melonine levels in a discussion on vaccines?

would it made any difference to you if she was asian?

Here's trump urging his followers to get the jab by the way: Odd behavior from an antivaxxer.


yeah not so much, I've actually seen far worse in the geriatric wing. That said yes. Antivaxxers do spread misinformation, uncontrollable shaking isn't one of them.
I've got no response to this other than I still think it's weird she is still having intense shaking years after her shot. Those symptoms are real when you get the shot (shit, I had crazy shivers after my 2nd shot), but still having them 2 years afterward is unheard of
 
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jetflag

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TIL, I didn't know he fucked up that way lol

I've got no response to this other than I still think it's weird she is still having intense shaking years after her shot. Those symptoms are real when you get the shot (shit, I had crazy shivers after my 2nd shot), but still having them 2 years afterward is unheard of
But what about that #believewomen, don't blame the victim and no mysogeny thingy m8? :sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky::sneaky:

JK

Like said, it could be (rare) benign fasciculation syndrome as a result of Axiety/Stress. So basically a tertiary physical reaction to a secondairy psychological reaction, to a primairy "shiver" reaction to the vaccin. She could (granted) ofcourse have gone full Karen mode on it now, we dunno 🤷‍♂️.

the initial video/shaking reaction at least to me doesn't ring acting (perse) after what i've seen personally.
 
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Hensmon

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You don't think these exact words equally apply to the vaccine conspiracists in this thread too?

Not really man. The British Heart Foundation does say there are excess deaths, so seems reasonable and logical to want to unpack why that might be happening and consider all options. After reading that previous post I had a check and indeed the CDC are pursuing vaccines as one of those options. So it's hardly a conspiracy, when two highly established/mainstream institutions are involved in that discussion.

I also came across a BBC interview with a mainstream cardiologist who has published two peer reviewed papers on the link between vaccines and cardiovascular related deaths. He does believe there to be a "likely" link (his words not mine). His credentials; 'Award-winning Consultant Cardiologist, Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians, and President of the Scientific Advisory Committee – The Public Health Collaboration. Dr. Malhotra is an internationally renowned expert in the prevention, diagnosis and management of heart disease.'

Vaccines as a contributor to excess deaths may not turn out to valid, but it's absolutely not a conspiracy theory, by any stretch of the definition.

BBC Interview (time stamped)
 

jetflag

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its also hardly a localized phenomenon. Excess deaths seem to be all over the place and appear to be quite random at that.

There's Finland with a high vax rate, sparsely populated, median age 43 and (good) state healthcare doing terrible
There's Germany with a high vax rate, densely populated, median age 46 and excellent healthcare doing terrible
There's Cyprus with an low vax rate, semi-densely populated, median age 37, with ok healthcare doing terrible

There's italy with a high vax rate, densely populated, median age 47, and terrible healthcare doing ok.
There's portugal with an extremely high vax rate, densely populated, median age 46, and ok healthcare doing worse then spain
THere's spain with ok vax rates, semi densely populated, median age 49, with worse healthcare then portugal doing ok
There's slovakia with terrible vax rates, dense population, median age 42, and reasonably poor healthcare doing great.

🤷‍♂️ more research needed.
 

Hot Tuna

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Not really man. The British Heart Foundation does say there are excess deaths, so seems reasonable and logical to want to unpack why that might be happening and consider all options.

So you didn't read my previous post or the links in it then.

Just repeating the same words I typed, but the BHF says the excessive deaths are due to Covid-related disruption to the health system, literally nothing to do with vaccines or any of the pseudo-science anybody is discussing here. Read the article, ctrl+f for "vaccine", the word literally isn't mentioned.

I even took the liberty of doing a fact-check search in case there is a legitimate dispute of this. Again, nothing to do with vaccinations whatsoever.
 

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I did read them. The fact checker one seems to contradict/dismiss the assumptions made by the BHF though...?? And it is assumptions btw, if you click the report button at the bottom of the BHF article there is no real data (just a single chart) or study they've done, it's just a first guess. The one actual study on the matter I have found so far from a respectable doctor has different conclusions. And then how about the CDC? It is true they are pursuing that line of reasoning.

Either way, was just showing thats it's not a conspiracy, its ok for people to discuss the reasons behind excess deaths. I don't presume to know whats going on, but its worth a exploring, why wouldn't it be? There's really nothing to loose (and lots to gain) by looking at different scientific perspectives.

Btw the one other major point here is that the excess deaths appears to be a global trend, regardless of healthcare capabilities, which brings the BHF assumption as the primary cause under question.
 
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@Hot Tuna, you’re being shown as wrong across all acounts, in real time.

Pfizer/Moderna clinical trial data now available to the public. Their own data clearly states that 1 in 800 vaccinated saw ‘serious adverse events’. Yes, vaccines do have the capacity to cause harm and it’s not a conspiracy as you hoped it to be, it is proven fact, from the vaccine companies own data. Source (see section 3.4 harm-benefit considerations).

Then, last Friday, the UK Health Secretary published its largest risk analysis to date, looking at how many people you have to vaccinate to prevent 1 serious hospitilzation across all age groups. Source

Put simply:

[Age 50-69]
Risk of serious hospitalization from vaccine: 1 in 800
Risk of serious hospitalization from not being vaccinated: 1 in 250,000

Simple risk benefit analysis shows that you are at great risk from vaccinating than from not being vaccinated, and by great magnitudes. For ages 0-50 the number difference gets even more vast (1 in 706,600 for 20-29). This the UK governments own data, cross referenced against the vaccine manufacturers own data. The math is simple. Getting vaccinated carries far more risk than not getting vaccinated, across almost all age groups.
 
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Hot Tuna

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We're living in alternate realities if that's your takeaway from the JCVI statement. I don't really have the time or interest to trawl through every publication that may or not prove this or that, especially when you don't seem to be able to interpret them properly, when I think most of the world has moved on already by now.

What I do know is that out of all the people in my life that have been vaccinated not a single one knows anybody that had suffered serious side effects from it. Yet several people have a relative who has suffered with long covid or died from it. I will continue to live in the real world and judge my decisions on that basis.
 
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dmgtz96

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We're living in alternate realities if that's your takeaway from the JCVI statement. I don't really have the time or interest to trawl through every publication that may or not prove this or that, especially when you don't seem to be able to interpret them properly, when I think most of the world has moved on already by now.

What I do know is that out of all the people in my life that have been vaccinated not a single one knows anybody that had suffered serious side effects from it. Yet several people have a relative who has suffered with long covid or died from it. I will continue to live in the real world and judge my decisions on that basis.
yeah... I'm going to have to call bullshit on @Perpetuous dreamer . Not because the stats are lying, or because we should suddenly use personal experience/anecdotes instead of math, but because the authors themselves state on pg. 2 right after table 1,

Note that the rates given in Table 1 are crude rates by age and vaccination status and should not be compared with one another to infer vaccine effectiveness. Rates will be affected by previous infections and other differences between groups. For example, those unvaccinated are likely to have had higher prior infection rates than those vaccinated which can reduce recent incidence in this group

The rates are for July 2022. If you want a real analysis of the effectiveness of vaccines, you have to look at all the months from ~March 2021, when the vaccines were first introduced to the world, to today. Then you have to consider all the unvaccinated that probably got COVID in 2020 and early 2021 before the vaccines were made available. It's not as simple as cherrypicking the data from a random month after the unvaccinated have been infected multiple times, and you should definitely not infer anything about the effectiveness of vaccines when the authors are literally telling you not to.