Public Intellectuals

Jetflag

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don't want to be associated with an unmoderated space where users freely call other users the n-word (among other racial slurs).
Except that Twitter's code of conduct and moderation hasn't changed on that front since the takover. You will get banned for racial slurs. said companies know this, So that isn't the reason they're pulling out.

On software development. The people primarily writing lines of code are the junior developers - they're the "grunt" workforce. Your senior devs don't code as much as junior devs, but they are amazing at debugging and system design, and they act as de-facto mentors of junior devs. If you use lines of code as the sole metric of developer productivity, you're going to end up with a bunch of junior devs who don't truly understand how the system works
Yeah I don't believe for a second that is the only metric he uses. Its one metric at best. Twitter, like many other silicon valley companies who's revolution in terms of new products is over or stretched.. suffers from over-management syndrome where you have 10 managers or seniors for one code-monkey.

Remember you're dealing with a CEO of at least two companies who write their own code for the high end products they produce. And thats not even getting into his previous successes on that front.

I don't know where you got the info from but it sounds like its one of those recent cope articles or tweets churned out by the bucketload to paint the man as some sort of evil incompetent bond villain, which he's not by any reasonable metric. Thats not to say Twitter can survive even under Musk's care.

It might very well be too late, (which you know...good) also observing the other trend over @ facebook/Meta where, I think 13.000? employees where fired? which by the way offtopic: @Hensmon have you been feeling any of this? or are you still in the clear?
 
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dmgtz96

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Except that Twitter's code of conduct and moderation hasn't changed on that front since the takover. You will get banned for racial slurs. said companies know this, So that isn't the reason they're pulling out.
Twitter's code of conduct and them banning users who used racial slurs doesn't matter tbh. The perception is that twitter is now a place for trolls, and advertisers wantn one of that.

Yeah I don't believe for a second that is the only metric he uses. Its one metric at best. Twitter, like many other silicon valley companies who's revolution in terms of new products is over or stretched.. suffers from over-management syndrome where you have 10 managers or seniors for one code-monkey.
In theory I would agree, but printing out code? That makes no sense. No one does that except for when they're turning in assignments for college.
Remember you're dealing with a CEO of at least two companies who write their own code for the high end products they produce. And thats not even getting into his previous successes on that front.

I don't know where you got the info from but it sounds like its one of those recent cope articles or tweets churned out by the bucketload to paint the man as some sort of evil incompetent bond villain, which he's not by any reasonable metric. Thats not to say Twitter can survive even under Musk's care.
That's because that's what Elon Musk is. The hard work / heavy lifting has always been done by others, whether that is Tesla's engineers or other people smarter and more experienced than him. Take the Paypal sequence:
  • Co-founded x.com, but was removed from CEO position
  • Returned as CEO when x.com merged with Confinity
  • Was kicked out again when the merged company didn't have a clear business model
  • After he was kicked out, the merged company then became Paypal, under Peter Thiel's leadership
Tesla was actually founded by two other people in 2003, but Elon Musk invested millions during series A. Elon then sued to become CEO of Tesla in 2009.

Seeing a pattern here?
 
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Hensmon

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^ Always astounding to see comments like the one above, where the focus of attack starts to shift towards the careers, success and achievements of the Musks and Zuckerbergs of the world. This may sound harsh, but it's a truly pathetic attitude, very weak minded. What have you done in your life? You might loathe them but they are the some of the highest performing, hard-working, entrepreneurial and influential individuals the world has ever seen. If me and you even achieved 1% of their success our families and peers would give us nothing but praise and admiration. You don't get where they are without being those things I described. Devaluing their achievements is just an embarrassing reflection on ones self and trivial to matters anyway.

I also don't see Elon's criticisms extending to much beyond just being a fallible human like us all. Weird yes, narcissistic (probably), gullible, incorrect, misguided etc Yes I think he is often a massive helmet too sometimes. But his good might also outweigh the bad. Imagine if he succesfully builds his 100% reusable rocket systems. He'll accelerate space exploration and make us a multi-planetary civilization. He may have propelled electric vehicles usage decade or more faster. I think its quite good to have the richest man on earth heavily focused on space exploration and the environment.

Cant help but feel like we create caricatures of these people just because they have power and influence. Villains for a soap opera.
 
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dmgtz96

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^ Always astounding to see comments like the one above, where the focus of attack starts to shift towards the careers, success and achievements of the Musks and Zuckerbergs of the world. This may sound harsh, but it's a truly pathetic attitude, very weak minded. What have you done in your life? You might loathe them but they are the some of the highest performing, hard-working, entrepreneurial and influential individuals the world has ever seen. If me and you even achieved 1% of their success our families and peers would give us nothing but praise and admiration. You don't get where they are without being those things I described. Devaluing their achievements is just an embarrassing reflection on ones self and trivial to matters anyway.
Yeah and they had the initiative to checks notes be born in a wealthy family that allowed them to take those entrepreneurial risks
I also don't see Elon's criticisms extending to much beyond just being a fallible human like us all. Weird yes, narcissistic (probably), gullible, incorrect, misguided etc Yes I think he is often a massive helmet too sometimes. But his good might also outweigh the bad. Imagine if he succesfully builds his 100% reusable rocket systems. He'll accelerate space exploration and make us a multi-planetary civilization. He may have propelled electric vehicles usage decade or more faster. I think its quite good to have the richest man on earth heavily focused on space exploration and the environment.
The public goodwill toward Elon Musk already expired.
Cant help but feel like we create caricatures of these people just because they have power and influence. Villains for a soap opera.
Well, yes. Billionaires and the ultra-wealthy are part of the world's villains. No one accumulates that much wealth without stepping on millions of people.


I don't know why you would defend a billionaire tbh. They're not on your side. You and I share more in common, since we're normal ordinary people.
 

Hensmon

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I'm agreeing with you Tuna. Framing it as 'What has Musk done? Nothing' is indeed completely childish. Then to make it worse, it's coming from individuals who have achieved absolutely nothing themselves. I'm pointing out the laughable and hypocritical nature of it all.

We can separate personal feeling from objective reality. He can be a misguided dick and a hard-working, brilliant mind at the same time.
Do you guys not think the progress in electric cars and space exploration is a good thing? Do you honestly believe that running these companies succesful for years is just something any guy with rich dad could do? It takes unbelievable commitment, hard-work, energy and intelligence.

Not sure if jealousy is the motivator for this view btw, I think it's too much time on reddit, overly consuming soap opera style content.
 
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Jetflag

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Twitter's code of conduct and them banning users who used racial slurs doesn't matter tbh. The perception is that twitter is now a place for trolls, and advertisers wantn one of that.
The perception is: that twitter is no longer a mouth piece of one particular ideology/ political narrative, and that’s why said (certain) companies are pulling out. Here in NL there hasn’t been any sort of an exodus in advertisers, because most companies advertising on it here aren’t complete ideologues.

And again right... I’m totally on board with twitter going under 🤷‍♂️ Because Yes. In an capitalist/ actual free market system a company should survive on its own merit, rather then simply being a propaganda outlet for others...and if it can’t, then twitter in its current form deserves to die, The question remains if Musk can reform it/ safe it in time, or if it ends up dying in his arms, I'm down either way.

In theory I would agree, but printing out code? That makes no sense. No one does that except for when they're turning in assignments for college.
Why? and No? My bassist works for a software-tester and they print out code all the time. Its just easier to read sometimes. Same reason why Architects, including me and the company I work for, print out BIM sheets instead of scroll-plowing through it on a screen. Screens/code engines are good for writing/zooming in on detail, not neccesairly (helicopter) reviewing.

That's because that's what Elon Musk is. The hard work / heavy lifting has always been done by others, whether that is Tesla's engineers or other people smarter and more experienced than him.
This is demonstrably untrue, same as:
be born in a wealthy family that allowed them to take those entrepreneurial risks
His "rich daddy" was defacto pennyless in the 90's, the man slep on the couch in the small office he and his brother rented, and had to shower at the YMCA during the setup of Zip2. You can also ask any random Space X employee on whether or not absurd the idea that musk is somehow chilling in his offices smoking cigars all day pretending to run these companies has any actual truth to it. You're just coping here/reitterating the hate-articles that popped up about him en masse a year back. 😄
Take the Paypal sequence:
  • Co-founded x.com, but was removed from CEO position
  • Returned as CEO when x.com merged with Confinity
  • Was kicked out again when the merged company didn't have a clear business model
  • After he was kicked out, the merged company then became Paypal, under Peter Thiel's leadership
So he cofounded it (x, paypal), got bought out in a power struggle, had to be brought back in, and was then, when the company regained traction again, ousted out ( which recently was haemorrhaging subscribers now after the whole “misinformation” debacle).

You’ve not in any way “debunked” his work ethic or company running competence there m8, quite the opposite, just saying. ^
Tesla was actually founded by two other people in 2003, but Elon Musk invested millions during series A. Elon then sued to become CEO of Tesla in 2009.

Seeing a pattern here?
Two other people went to the Chamber of Commerce to register the Tesla company, did f all except fundraise for a year before Musk bought in, who within 2 years pumped out the Roadster, and basically pulled the company from there on out to where it is today.

So far the only “patterns” you’ve demonstrated are:, 1, There's power struggles happening in companies, 2 Musk’s continuous ability to, through conscientiousness, competence, sheer hard work/intelligence, create or uplift companies/ products to the next level.

Well, yes. Billionaires and the ultra-wealthy are part of the world's villains. No one accumulates that much wealth without stepping on millions of people.
I don't know why you would defend a billionaire tbh. They're not on your side. You and I share more in common, since we're normal ordinary people.
Well I can tell you why I defend Musk as an "Evil billionaire" as opposed to say, The Clintons or the Biden's or the Bushes of this world, not saying you are defacto defending those perse, but in our back & forths you do generally favor politics over business.

1, He is, despite the Cope, very much self made. Yes, Nobody achieves everything in life all on its own, but to write down his acchievements as him just being a richboy leech is, to quote Hensmon a truly pathetic attitude, and very weak minded. Not to mention intellectually dishonest.
2, He doesn't take money away from you by Fiat/Force but lets you decide yourself if you wish to use, invest or buy his products.
3, He doesn't invest/ waste your tax money into failed projects/companies or initiatives, instead using his own, to tangibly improve the world.
4, He actually achieves said improvement/things, instead of just chruning out empty promises and feel good rethoric for his followers, who's money he demands.

The idea that all humans are the same is a nice one, but misguided/untrue. It takes, a special kind of mind to do what he did/does and if that wasn't the case every or most "ordinairy people" would have done it already before him.
 
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dmgtz96

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I'm agreeing with you Tuna. Framing it as 'What has Musk done? Nothing' is indeed completely childish. Then to make it worse, it's coming from individuals who have achieved absolutely nothing themselves. I'm pointing out the laughable and hypocritical nature of it all.
I've only seen this argument from people who really have nothing to say about what is being discussed. Levy the slightest complaint against the super rich, and immediately someone says WeLl WhAt HaVe YoU dOnE
If you want to have a legit discussion, at least quote me directly instead of referencing me indirectly. You're not even trying.

And, if you "don't want to," because you're too good to have a discussion with me, because you're too enlightened, that is fine, that let me knows I shouldn't waste any more time on what you have to say.

We can separate personal feeling from objective reality. He can be a misguided dick and a hard-working, brilliant mind at the same time.
Do you guys not think the progress in electric cars and space exploration is a good thing? Do you honestly believe that running these companies succesful for years is just something any guy with rich dad could do? It takes unbelievable commitment, hard-work, energy and intelligence.
All of those things can be true simultaneously. On the other hand, he couldn't have gotten to where he is without his parents' wealth, full stop.
Not sure if jealousy is the motivator for this view btw, I think it's too much time on reddit, overly consuming soap opera style content.
Dude, objectively Elon has had a shitty life. He's ultra wealthy, but he's also had multiple marriages and divorces, children that he probably doesn't attend to, and just wasted billions on a useless platform (twitter). With his wealth he could be sipping on cocktails with models and shit, but no he's shitposting on twitter.
Also, many owners of Teslas are unhappy that Elon is still the CEO of the company. What would you say to them? Should they suck up to Elon unquestionably for all of his past accomplishments? Or all they also not allowed to voice any complaints against him due to how off-the-rails he's gone?
 
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dmgtz96

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The perception is: that twitter is no longer a mouth piece of one particular ideology/ political narrative, and that’s why said (certain) companies are pulling out. Here in NL there hasn’t been any sort of an exodus in advertisers, because most companies advertising on it here aren’t complete ideologues.

And again right... I’m totally on board with twitter going under 🤷‍♂️ Because Yes. In an capitalist/ actual free market system a company should survive on its own merit, rather then simply being a propaganda outlet for others...and if it can’t, then twitter in its current form deserves to die, The question remains if Musk can reform it/ safe it in time, or if it ends up dying in his arms, I'm down either way.
Far enough. On your 2nd point we agree. Nothing better could happen than Twitter and the rest of the social media platforms just vanishing. I think they've overextended their stay in human history, and something else is needed.
Why? and No? My bassist works for a software-tester and they print out code all the time. Its just easier to read sometimes. Same reason why Architects, including me and the company I work for, print out BIM sheets instead of scroll-plowing through it on a screen. Screens/code engines are good for writing/zooming in on detail, not neccesairly (helicopter) reviewing.
Interesting. I think it would be easier to review code with a screen, but if you want to print it and review it I guess that's fine?
but doing so for hundreds of employees sounds like a chore. I'm not sure why the CEO would even want the devs to show him their code. Couldn't he at least appoint someone else to review it?

This is demonstrably untrue, same as:

His "rich daddy" was defacto pennyless in the 90's, the man slep on the couch in the small office he and his brother rented, and had to shower at the YMCA during the setup of Zip2. You can also ask any random Space X employee on whether or not absurd the idea that musk is somehow chilling in his offices smoking cigars all day pretending to run these companies has any actual truth to it. You're just coping here/reitterating the hate-articles that popped up about him en masse a year back. 😄
Source for the pennyless rich daddy?
I actually haven't mentioned anything about the smoking cigars bit. He definitely has a hand in his companies, and he has a vision for them, but I still think his family's wealth is largely what allowed him to get to where he is. You don't get into U of Penn as an international student and then into the Stanford Physics PhD program without some serious wealth.
So he cofounded it (x, paypal), got bought out in a power struggle, had to be brought back in, and was then, when the company regained traction again, ousted out ( which recently was haemorrhaging subscribers now after the whole “misinformation” debacle).
Yeah, it sounds like that whole ordeal was a mess
You’ve not in any way “debunked” his work ethic or company running competence there m8, quite the opposite, just saying. ^
Fair enough, though I don't think he has the amazing company-running skills that people think he has. A lot of the tough work was already done before he came into the picture.
Two other people went to the Chamber of Commerce to register the Tesla company, did f all except fundraise for a year before Musk bought in, who within 2 years pumped out the Roadster, and basically pulled the company from there on out to where it is today.

So far the only “patterns” you’ve demonstrated are:, 1, There's power struggles happening in companies, 2 Musk’s continuous ability to, through conscientiousness, competence, sheer hard work/intelligence, create or uplift companies/ products to the next level.
I have no argument here. Elon is a very good hype man, and that is what Tesla needed at the time, but not anymore.
Well I can tell you why I defend Musk as an "Evil billionaire" as opposed to say, The Clintons or the Biden's or the Bushes of this world, not saying you are defacto defending those perse, but in our back & forths you do generally favor politics over business.
I'll take that
1, He is, despite the Cope, very much self made. Yes, Nobody achieves everything in life all on its own, but to write down his acchievements as him just being a richboy leech is, to quote Hensmon a truly pathetic attitude, and very weak minded. Not to mention intellectually dishonest.
2, He doesn't take money away from you by Fiat/Force but lets you decide yourself if you wish to use, invest or buy his products.
3, He doesn't invest/ waste your tax money into failed projects/companies or initiatives, instead using his own, to tangibly improve the world.
On #3, his companies have actually gotten billions of dollars in government funding. Source. And this is coming from business insider
4, He actually achieves said improvement/things, instead of just chruning out empty promises and feel good rethoric for his followers, who's money he demands.
Like Tesla Full-Self Driving and the Cybertruck?
His Boring Company project was also a terrible idea. The government should have saved all the money spent on that.
The idea that all humans are the same is a nice one, but misguided/untrue. It takes, a special kind of mind to do what he did/does and if that wasn't the case every or most "ordinairy people" would have done it already before him.
Fair enough. I'm not sure if anyone else could have built up enough hype for electric cars. At the same time, I still think his contributions to humanity are vanishing. He might have done a lot of good work in the past, but now that he's gone off the rails, mainstream society doesn't want to associate with him anymore.
 
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Jetflag

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I'm not sure why the CEO would even want the devs to show him their code. Couldn't he at least appoint someone else to review it?
I don't believe for a second he'll actually review it all himself, sound like a balony sandwich story....where is he going to find the time?
Source for the pennyless rich daddy?
I actually haven't mentioned anything about the smoking cigars bit. He definitely has a hand in his companies, and he has a vision for them, but I still think his family's wealth is largely what allowed him to get to where he is. You don't get into U of Penn as an international student and then into the Stanford Physics PhD program without some serious wealth.
I don't have the article right at hand on my phone but a quick google search should sort you out. basically what happened was his dad (like Elon) was involved in risky entrepenerial ventures, hence his crash in the 90's. The man was, at least according to Musk and his siblings rather abusive and a firm believer in raising one's kids to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. This, afaik, is confirmed by both parties (who don't seem to like one another) He and his family/past are target for a lot of speculation on either end though, but Musk (as far as what wedo know) hardly lived the Daddy-money fratternaty lifestyle when he was 17, a picture detractors of him (unfoundetly) have started sketching recently.

I have no argument here. Elon is a very good hype man, and that is what Tesla needed at the time, but not anymore.
It needed alot more, it needed a good product/ Product Architect, which Musk was (is) Hype alone doesn't get you far for very long (see: Fisker, Theranos etc.) that last one is actually worth reading about offtopic.

On #3, his companies have actually gotten billions of dollars in government funding. Source. And this is coming from business insider
yes, but not until he had proven his product(s) where actually worth investing in. Its also a security issue in case of Space X seen as rockets are seen/ can be used as a militairy assets. So the government would either need to be involved or shut the whole thing down. The fact however that NASA didn't do the latter, (which they did with other private startups) should speak bookmarks to the quality and economic viability.

Like Tesla Full-Self Driving and the Cybertruck?
His Boring Company project was also a terrible idea. The government should have saved all the money spent on that.
Those last two where basically when he had Tesla was wel and able onto the rails, I don't blame the man, after that acchievement in that market, to have a little fun. Boring company I see as a regular tunnel diggin company which I don't find a terrible idea at all in general. My company just finished a 2 km underground tunnel in NL. Where there's dense/complex traffic you're going to have to, at some point, layer.

I'm actually surprised you (speaking of wierd hobby projects) didn't mention the Hyperloop. That might be the only thing genuinly dumb thing from Musk in terms of company (which it hardly is really, more of an academic moonshot) i'd never invest in.

Fair enough. I'm not sure if anyone else could have built up enough hype for electric cars. At the same time, I still think his contributions to humanity are vanishing. He might have done a lot of good work in the past, but now that he's gone off the rails, mainstream society doesn't want to associate with him anymore.
well he declared himself in opposition to a lot of (our) overlords, which they don't like. So i'm not surprised that we're seeing a bit of a war on Musk unfold., and his own twitter hobby doesn't help with that. But then again thats why its nice to have this thread isn't it? 😄 It stops me from becoming a Musk-Cultist and you from becoming an Anti-Musk Cultist, so, there's that. (Y)

I for one am going to be very greatfull if he gets Spaceship to the Moon, (as it'll probably upset a lot of apollo deniers.)
 
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dmgtz96

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Elon's twitter stunt isn't working. His enforced return to the office, threat of hardcore 80+ hr workweek, and offer for 3 months of severance led 75% of twitter employees leaving.
Hint: you don't threaten skilled, educated workers with highly employable skills. They'll just leave you to work for someone better.
 

Hensmon

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Hint: you don't threaten skilled, educated workers with highly employable skills. They'll just leave you to work for someone better.

Exactly. It also completely fails to grasp the pulse of the time when it comes to how people want to live their lives. Most people are realizing now that at a point career dos not equal happiness. Happiness is free time, spending time with friends and family and pursuing what's personally meaningful. A 60+ hour work weeks robs you of that (let alone 80). Tech people are particularly attune to this. Meta is a fantastic company btw regarding this topic, best I have ever worked for, in terms of encouraging and enabling a great WLB and high mental work health .

Sorry for the rant the other day btw @dmgtz96 it was overly rude, think I had a stressful day. The reason I didn't quote you directly is because I don't think what i'm talking about is on you specifically, but a wider phenomena, hence the desire not to target you directly. The excessive quoting kills the conversation/thread too, so I try to not go that route.
 
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dmgtz96

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Exactly. It also completely fails to grasp the pulse of the time when it comes to how people want to live their lives. Most people are realizing now that at a point career dos not equal happiness. Happiness is free time, spending time with friends and family and pursuing what's personally meaningful. A 60+ hour work weeks robs you of that (let alone 80). Tech people are particularly attune to this. Meta is a fantastic company btw regarding this topic, best I have ever worked for, in terms of encouraging and enabling a great WLB and high mental work health .

Sorry for the rant the other day btw @dmgtz96 it was overly rude, think I had a stressful day. The reason I didn't quote you directly is because I don't think what i'm talking about is on you specifically, but a wider phenomena, hence the desire not to target you directly. The excessive quoting kills the conversation/thread too, so I try to not go that route.
Fair enough. I'm sure that Meta is good company to work for, given that so many people want to work there. I'd just say that disliking your CEO (or Elon, or Bezos, etc) does not mean disliking the people who actually work there, since we're all more or less on the same boat of being employees/working class, even if we have professional degrees.
 

Bobby Summa

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Given the news today of Apple criticising Elon Musk. What is the significance of Twitter?
I keep thinking with all this attention on Twitter, and the rest of the social media.

How significant a part does this play on most peoples ‘actual’ lives.

How important really is this stuff ?

Obviously for some businesses perhaps it’s essential for promotion and marketing. Maybe the same for an artist if they really want success.

But…

Does social media have to be paid that much attention or is it so easy to get sucked in to the less healthy aspects of it, that many won’t even know that they have.

Would perhaps most people be happier without so much of it?

I wonder if peoples minds were analyzed for the amount of time social media occupies their mind and thoughts, some would be shocked.

Be good to have data on how much people occupy their minds with social media. Probably impossible to get though unless a thought analysis machine gets invented because I doubt many are even aware of what their minds are doing.
 
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Archon

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Given the news today of Apple criticising Elon Musk. What is the significance of Twitter?
I keep thinking with all this attention on Twitter, and the rest of the social media.

How significant a part does this play on most peoples ‘actual’ lives.

How important really is this stuff ?

Obviously for some businesses perhaps it’s essential for promotion and marketing. Maybe the same for an artist if they really want success.

But…

Does social media have to be paid that much attention or is it so easy to get sucked in to the less healthy aspects of it, that many won’t even know that they have.

Would perhaps most people be happier without so much of it?

I wonder if peoples minds were analyzed for the amount of time social media occupies their mind and thoughts, some would be shocked.
We have a thread for this actually, it's one of my favs. Maybe you can post your thoughts and experiences there: How we used to live (serious topic)
 
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