UFOs and Aliens

TwinSilo

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Let's, then, talk about, why the articles about UFOs aren't published and peer-reviewed in well-established scientific magazines?

@Gagi how do you expect the scientific community go about studying the UFOs and releasing such a paper? What would the paper even be on? The military are the ones who have the fighter jets, the advanced radar systems and cameras, the expertise on vehicles and knowledge on the latest technology and the years of documentation. Should public scientists point cameras in the sky randomly and just hope they happen to come across a phenomenon, and if they did, how do they measure it and how do they repeat it in a controlled manner to establish any sort of theory or conclusion?

The only way we are going to see research papers from public scientific institutions is if they collaborate directly with the military and get their hands on the data, and then have everything about that declassified for public release. It doesn’t take a genius to understand why that’s not happening, the US are not going divulge the workings and information from its various military sensors and systems, as well as operations, for anyone in the world to see. Thats just common sense. How do you think military make conclusions on intelligence anyways? Just by guesses or by scientific analysis?

Intelligence reports is how we have always received information from the military and government, as they can be curated in a way to not breach the declassified status of information, yet still convey the evidence and conclusions. One of Donald Trumps last orders as president was to demand an intelligence committee put together a UFO report exactly in this manner and within 180 days. We are getting that in literally a few days, they’ve been working on it for months. Let us see what it says.

thenewstribune.com/opinion/article252126463.html
 
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jetflag

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@Gagi how do you expect the scientific community go about studying the UFOs and releasing such a paper? What would the paper even be on? The military are the ones who have the fighter jets, the advanced radar systems and cameras, the expertise on vehicles and knowledge on the latest technology and the years of documentation.
The bulk of the scientific community worldwide have toys like a 75 billion LHC, but don’t have “advanced tech” at their disposal such as
jets, radar and camera's on par to that of an jet developed in the late 80's such as an F18 and a nimitz class carrier..... Seriously? thats why science can't gather data, but the pentagon can according to you? :ROFLMAO:

i'm sorry but this is the most vapid statement i've seen so far in this thread and thats saying something. How do you think wheather phenomena in the upper athmosphere such as sprites are being researched...pixie fairies with lab coats?
Should public scientists point cameras in the sky randomly and just hope they happen to come across a phenomenon, and if they did, how do they measure it and how do they repeat it in a controlled manner to establish any sort of theory or conclusion?

yes? thats what ornithologists do it all the time m8 or what to think of neutron detectors..

or wait.. let me guess. the aliens are soo clever that they will carefully avoid detection by things like SETI advanced radars/ sattelites gathering say.. weather data, and hypothetical future experiments set up to specifically detect and research them.. but they can't seem to avoid hobbyists and the bleeping Pentagon who, strategically release and only release breadcrum vague footage (instead of the actual data) because that somehow is classified and sensitive.

how convinient.
The only way we are going to see research papers from public scientific institutions is if they collaborate directly with the military and get their hands on the data

Hogwash.. as if only the militairy, (who's tech first has to be developed by the aforementioned before it can be come a militairy house-hold appliance) can have trained pilots and radar operators.

come on.. I know its human nature to grasp at straws when belief systems are being challenged, I do so too, and I don't want be a dick in this thread all the time, but seriously... come on...

It doesn’t take a genius to understand why that’s not happening, the US are not going divulge the workings and information from its various military sensors and systems,
but they are going to release blurry footage for you to "make your mind up yourself". strange isn't it? how they don't release anything of actuall substance but are willing (for reasons no-one can explain to me) to release that? why?

yet still convey the evidence and conclusions
no, doesn't convey that, at all, 😂 which is precisey why the bulk of the entire science community ignores it / shrugs it off

One of Donald Trumps last orders as president was to demand an intelligence committee put together a UFO report exactly in this manner and within 180 days. We are getting that in literally a few days, they’ve been working on it for months. Let us see what it says.


thenewstribune.com/opinion/article252126463.html

I'm going to be the next Nostradamus and call this before hand:

"inconclusive, potential threat, more research *COUGHfunding needed, great job for the new militairy spaceforce branch!"
 
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TwinSilo

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The bulk of the scientific community worldwide have toys like a 75 billion LHC, but don’t have “advanced tech” at their disposal such as
jets, radar and camera's on par to that of an jet developed in the late 80's such as an F18 and a nimitz class carrier..... Seriously?

Yes seriously. Just because science has given us the hadron collider it doesn't mean the scientific community is swimming in money, it's not. You don’t seem to understand how research works in the real world, even publishing papers can be expensive. Im not arguing its impossible for public scientists to study UAPs but there's valid and obvious reasons why we haven't seen that happen, even ones that pursue the alternate hypothesis of weather or quantam phenomena...

Access to funding unquestionably and notoriously provides barriers to scientific research, In all fields. If you wanted a high quality UAP study it would be a very, very expensive and time consuming endeavour i.e the multiple cameras, the tracking and radar systems, the fighter jets, the military pilots and many other things. That's a big barrier. You DO need military collaboration as how else would they be able to rule out military drone hypothesis when drawing conclusions? If it’s rare quantum phenomena you’d need apparatus to capture and rule out that hypothesis too, whatever that consists of. You’d then point all this at the sky and have to wait months or maybe years with the random chance to find something, with jets on standby for the moment this happens. All this with no idea how it appears, when it appears, where it comes from, why it appears, if it will come back...

No pretending it's not complicated, extremely time consuming and expensive and with a return of investment that’s unclear, potentially non existent. Who’s gonna pay for that? I would guess it rules a majority out immediately. We’re also forgetting that as little as 5 years ago UAP/UFO’s were accepted to be nothing more than conspiracy and hoaxes, so expecting that the scientific communities would have approached this up until now is naive. The rare ones that have considered it would need to find someone to give them the funding for such an endeavour of which they themselves likely believe is hoax too.

but they are going to release blurry footage for you to "make your mind up yourself". strange isn't it? how they don't release anything of actuall substance but are willing (for reasons no-one can explain to me) to release that? why?

The videos were leaked and not Pentagon releases I believe, one as early as 07. And yes a short FLIR clip is non sensitive when compared to the entire data files and workings of different radar systems, of which you’d need for a complete evaluation in a paper (and more). My point that the Pentagon would not want that released still stands, so far they've given us nothing anyway.
 
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jetflag

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Yes seriously. Just because science has given us the hadron collider it doesn't mean the scientific community is swimming in money, it's not. You don’t seem to understand how research works in the real world, even publishing papers can be expensive. Im not arguing its impossible for public scientists to study UAPs but there's valid and obvious reasons why we haven't seen that happen, even ones that pursue the alternate hypothesis of weather or quantam phenomena...

Access to funding unquestionably and notoriously provides barriers to scientific research, In all fields. If you wanted a high quality UAP study it would be a very, very expensive and time consuming endeavour i.e the multiple cameras, the tracking and radar systems, the fighter jets, the military pilots and many other things. That's a big barrier.

No actually I do understand, and have a grasp of the amount of the money involved, which is why I think your proposition is ludacris. 😅

There is a hell of a lot of money being pumped in the science community comparitivly then you care to admit here,. Now its not as much as the US militairy, granted. but case in point: SETI is a 5 billion dollar look-for-aliens project, with an annual cost of running it of 2.5 million (per dish). (with 0 results over multible decades i might add, so its not exactly a profitable endeavour) and thats an oldy, off the cuff example by the way, the newer generations of proposed experiments in that field are way more expensive/world spanning.

bottom line:

its absolute peanuts compared to running/piloting a dozen or so mid altitude planes equiped with mundaine equipment such as radars and camera's, on par with that of an f18, to gather similar data then the stuff presented here for a couple of years.

How on earth do you reconsile the idea of them somehow not being able to afford that and having to beg the pentagon for scraps, but they can somehow get the funding to pump billions into all manner of sky-watch science projects like HUBBLE, SETI, ARICEBO etc. most of which actually have an equally low result return rate.

its a nonsense argument, i'm sorry but it just is.

No. the scientific community isn't broke, and a (proper) study of UFO phenomena does not depend on them having to collaborate with the pentagon to gather evidence/material. It might benefit them, but they're far from dependend on it, which is what you suggest is the prime reason as to why we haven't seen papers published.

You DO need military collaboration as how else would they be able to rule out military drone hypothesis when drawing conclusions? If it’s rare quantum phenomena you’d need apparatus to capture and rule out that hypothesis too, whatever that consists of. You’d then point all this at the sky and have to wait months or maybe years with the random chance to find something, with jets on standby for the moment this happens. All this with no idea how it appears, when it appears, where it comes from, why it appears, if it will come back...

no, you don't.. those things are post hoc. The first thing you need to do is gather actual data that conclusivly isn't a bird/balloon recorded in parallax or a plane in the infrared spectrum. then, when you've ruled out those hypothese properly, you can scale up. but you don't need that from the onset.

Einstein didn't start with LIGO, it was a graduall buildup to try and falsify his claims on gravity waves.


No pretending it's not complicated, extremely time consuming and expensive and with a return of investment that’s unclear, potentially non existent. Who’s gonna pay for that?

The exact same people, who'd pay for a 5 billion dollar alien search installation with a 0 return rate spanning multible decades. iow you and me. the taxpayers. 🍻 and by way. most of them are and would be (speaking for the US) arguably quite happy to do so either, as opposed to that money being spend on say foreign wars (or national healthcare)

We’re also forgetting that as little as 5 years ago UAP/UFO’s were accepted to be nothing more than conspiracy and hoaxes, so expecting that the scientific communities would have approached this up until now is naive. The rare ones that have considered it would need to find someone to give them the funding for such an endeavour of which they themselves likely believe is hoax too.

well yeah on this part we sort of agree. they (and I) actually still think this is a hoax, as in, not aliens. but that wasn't your argument if i'm right, your argument was (in a nutshell)
1, they don't/can't get the money.
2, they (therefor) need to be in bed with the militairy, to get any kind of evidence gathered.

both I think are absolute bollocks, but on the side of them (the science community) considering this not even worthy of further study, either due to lack of (proper) data sets or more mundaine explanations being far more likely..yeah I agree..

The hypothesis put forth by the Ufologists of X object breaking physics based on Y footage and "testimonies" ..isn't even worthy of serious consideration by the bulk of all that is science, Any scientist worth their salt will first occam razor it on first sight, and those who are genuinly interrested will be dissapointed to find it being the aforementioned upon closer inspection.

The videos were leaked and not Pentagon releases I believe, one as early as 07. And yes a short FLIR clip is non sensitive when compared to the entire data files and workings of different radar systems, of which you’d need for a complete evaluation in a paper (and more). My point that the Pentagon would not want that released still stands, so far they've given us nothing anyway.
both actually, There have been cases of "leaked pentagon footage they're covering it it up wooo" since as far back as the 70's, ofcourse. But in this instance, we're talking about footage (officially) released by the pentagon after an (alleged recent leak.

the reason you see so much hype around this now is a rehearsal of the so called "disclosure" feedback loop:

or to quote scientific american:

“The advocates of alien disclosure are encroaching on these real issues of UAPs,” West says. These believers take mundane videos of incidents that are simply unidentified, he says, then reframe them as evidence of extraordinary technology—which, of course, is intended to mean “aliens,” even if enthusiasts for that hypothesis will not explicitly say so. This cultivates credulous media attention, which in turn creates a feedback loop of public interest, more media and then pressure on politicians to “do something.”
 
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TwinSilo

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Those expensive projects you mentioned make up a tiny percentage of scientific research. We’ll have to agree to disagree that projects like SETI or Hubble are reflecting any sort of norm in science. On a quick search Hubble and ARICEBO have given us many great discoveries and insights. You were right about SETI yielding nothing so far, but again we’d have to disagree with each other that this represents the majority of scientific projects.

The stigma around UAPs was brought up as it sets a timeframe for when science would have become more aware and open to study the subject, roughly 5 years. Not long considering we might need years to gather data. The funding required, although not breaking into the top 1% you keep referencing, may be expensive enough to put it in the top 10%. I’ve found one analysis that puts the avg. funding for research papers in 2014 at $45,000. Thats significantly lower than the requirements for a UAP study. The limitations are obvious enough, we can again agree to disagree on that. After all, considering the UAP is a real phenomenon (whatever may be behind it) where are the papers studying that and confirming all these cases are in fact birds or weather phenomena? They don't appear to exist either because the same barriers and factors exist, it works both ways.

The first thing you need to do is gather actual data that conclusivly isn't a bird/balloon recorded in parallax or a plane in the infrared spectrum. then, when you've ruled out those hypothese properly, you can scale up. but you don't need that from the onset.

Any UAP study that wants to consider options beyond the very basics of what you described needs to know if what they are looking at is a military drone or operation. That's what we are talking about here, the high quality studies, so it would have to be addressed. You yourself listed highly classified drones as a likely candidate.

Are you feeling the entirety of this current situation is unfolding based off the 3 videos? (which btw I double checked were not released via the Pentagon). Your’e talking as if its these videos alone that are causing this commotion, public campaign, report and general responses from the govs/military. They’re clearly studying and drawing conclusions on evidence that goes beyond a single video. The conversation has gone beyond birds. The report is likely going to prove exactly what I’m saying, let’s see how many cases its been looking at, its not going to just be the nimitz. We should know very soon.
 

dmgtz96

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I haven't really followed this topic other than r/conspiracy probably went wild a couple of days ago and now everyone can read the UAP report
Still, I think it would be a good idea to allocate some funding for research on UFOs/possible alien life on Earth. Maybe have close oversight so the group that receives this funding isn't just fucking around. Do this for a year and see what you can find.
 
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jetflag

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but again we’d have to disagree with each other that this represents the majority of scientific projects.

yeah but we don't disagree on that because I never claimed they where m8. those examples do however utterly dispell the notion that in order to gather similar radar, infrared and camera data on UFO's. the scientific community is depended on the military. which they're not. Again, theres plenty of science papers on upper atmospheric spire phenomena (involving data gathered by planes) without the involvement of the army.


The stigma around UAPs was brought up as it sets a timeframe for when science would have become more aware and open to study the subject, roughly 5 years. Not long considering we might need years to gather data. The funding required, although not breaking into the top 1% you keep referencing, may be expensive enough to put it in the top 10%. I’ve found one analysis that puts the avg. funding for research papers in 2014 at $45,000. Thats significantly lower than the requirements for a UAP study. The limitations are obvious enough, we can again agree to disagree on that. After all, considering the UAP is a real phenomenon (whatever may be behind it) where are the papers studying that and confirming all these cases are in fact birds or weather phenomena? They don't appear to exist either because the same barriers and factors exist, it works both ways.
the same place where all the papers "proving" the earth is round are as opposed to flat. You have to first get passed the point where the likelihood of a theory (or UAP) actually being something extraordinary is greater then the aformentioned mundaine phenomena or object, (based on the gathered data.) and so far it just doesn't.

extraordinairy claims, require extraordianiry evidence. and this, all this, just doesn't have that standard.

Any UAP study that wants to consider options beyond the very basics of what you described needs to know if what they are looking at is a military drone or operation. That's what we are talking about here, the high quality studies, so it would have to be addressed. You yourself listed highly classified drones as a likely candidate.
yes but only as being more likely then magic physics breaking aliens. and again, you skip a step.

the first step is to gather actual proper data, that rules out more mundaine candidates (and no. the testimonies and footage being shown here aren't that) before you can investigate whether or not top-militairy drones , or aliens for that matter, would be a likely candidate.
Are you feeling the entirety of this current situation is unfolding based off the 3 videos? (which btw I double checked were not released via the Pentagon). Your’e talking as if its these videos alone that are causing this commotion, public campaign, report and general responses from the govs/military. They’re clearly studying and drawing conclusions on evidence that goes beyond a single video. The conversation has gone beyond birds. The report is likely going to prove exactly what I’m saying, let’s see how many cases its been looking at, its not going to just be the nimitz. We should know very soon.

-no, i'm seeing a rehearsal of the 80's UFO hype.
-yes they where, triple check next time. On April 27, 2020, the Pentagon formally released the aformentioned three videos
- well cleary the conversation has gone beyond that, obviously.. so what? truth isn't a matter of discussion
 
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jetflag

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So the Pentagon paper came out...

And the conclusion is: nothing. They dont know.

Well. Very useful info 🤣

1624724689328.png


is there perhaps any mention of "more research (funding) needed?
 
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Hensmon

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For the believers the report is indeed underwhelming, although no one had expectations that the gov would admit aliens are real, it is shockingly small and void of information which would have been useful for everyone to dissect. I wonder if congress get the actual details of the 144 cases?

For the sceptics it raises more problems. 144 cases and after 6 months of analysis only a single instance could be identified with ‘high confidence’. That’s 143 UAP’s in US airspace that the military and gov are telling us they have no idea what they are, with no conventional explanations available. Most of these cases are from the last 2 years. If the answer to all this is so mundane as the sceptics suggest i.e birds then why did 99% of the cases not yield a single piece of evidence that concludes that theory??? Pretty telling, unfortunately for them.

No cases either that found evidence to confirm that what we are seeing is Russian or Chinese…and none were attributed to domestic technology. So high-tech drone theory also left desperately wanting, and although looking increasingly unlikely, still remains feasible.

It’s a small but good step towards disclosure. The most powerful military in the world has been left with its pants down and admittedly clueless on what's flying in its airspace. UAPs now recognised as a real issue, not something visionary or fictitious. Most are ‘physical’ objects, high speed manoeuvres confirmed. Congress now has something real to move take action on. Just the start!
 
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jetflag

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If the answer to all this is so mundane as the sceptics suggest i.e birds then why did 99% of the cases not yield a single piece of evidence that concludes that theory???
because thats not how it works hensmon 😅

the skeptics are not the one's making the extraordinairy claims.. they're just the ones rebuking the extraordinairy claims of it probably being "objects" that break physics (alien or otherwise) in favor of something mundaine (like a bird or a plane in infrared spectrum)

its not their job to come up with evidence of mundaine claims as they are, well, mundaine.

it is however up to the believers to come up with extraordinairy evidence as the claims is well, extraordinairy.
5erjqa.jpg



If a skeptic and a believer walk into a bar, and they come across this picture

flyingbats_DSC3014.jpg



and the believer goes. "well it has wings, seems to have feet and looks a bit like a man if you squeeze your eyes a bit, and a burgler was found unconcious in the area, that very same night! and the police officer who found him testifies he also saw a batshape, therefor that could be Batman!"

and the skeptic goes: "no, thats probably just a blurry picture of a bat m8.

Then the burden of proof is on the believer.

and thats why this report doesn't raise more problems for the skeptics, of that its unfortunate for them that this report basically leaves everyone at square one.

With the pentagon defacto shrugging, their default position stands. whereas the burden for the believer also remains.
 
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Hensmon

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It’s exactly how it works @jetflag. The goal is understanding what is flying around US airspace and you approach that by ruling out or confirming the available options with analysis and evidence to see what you are left with. There is nothing irregular about that. In your own words;

“the first step is to gather actual proper data, that rules out more mundane candidates”

So you are agreeing with me and the process. The mundane object hypothesis, by far the easiest one to confirm or deny, had less than 1% of the 144 cases showing that to be true. >1%!!!. If this hypothesis was valid it would have given us something…anything… it’s really failed miserably in that regards. Based on the data we rule it out, now forcing us towards the other options on the table.
 

jetflag

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No, it doesn’t work like that, and no I haven’t.😅

when I say: “the first step is to gather actual proper data, that rules out more mundane candidates”

A: the task of ruling out the mundaine is on the believer, since he is the one making the extraordinairy claim, challenging the mundaine position of the skeptic, who can just sit where he sits.

and B:, by the first step I really mean the first step, which hasn’t been passed. There hasn’t been any actual proper data gathered. Full stop.

and no. vague footage and testimonies aren’t actually proper data, regardless of it being 144 or a million in quantity. I’m sorry, but its just not. Which is precisely why the report (predictably) concludes as "inconclusive"


now as for who's in hotter water, the believer or the skeptic:

In the hierarchy of truths and falsehoods, the mundaine takes precedent over the extraordinairy. So a bird in parallax takes precedent over physics breaking down in terms of what is the more likely truth candidate. Now I can appreciate that might not feel fair for someone who really wants to believe. but that’s just the way it is.

so the skeptic sits perfectly unmoved and comfortable at his (mundaine) postion, since the believer has not met his (or hers) burden of proof, and any attempt to try and shift that burden of proof, which is what you're attempting when you say its up to the skeptic to prove that its probably a plane in infrared crossing the horizon as opposed to magic space aliens "warping out of existence" or, to use a theological analogy “if God doesn’t exist then where is al that evidence that its just nature? This is a major problem and burden for the skeptics!” is going to be called out and isn't going to work.
 
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Manofearth

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Anyone know the mathematician Eric Weinstein? I'm a big fan of his. He's moved into the UFO camp now, which was a big surprise for me actually. NDT is also someone I respect, who resides in the other camp and staunchly against the idea of visitation. Interesting to see the exchange. Notably, NDT twitter seems to be very strange this last 24 hours, like he is having a nervous breakdown about the ongoing UFO developments and conversation. I have to agree with Eric here.


On NDT:
Screenshot 2021-06-29 at 15.33.07.png


On UFOs:
Screenshot 2021-06-29 at 15.39.19.png


On the report:
Screenshot 2021-06-29 at 15.41.10.png


I agree with him completely on the last tweet. The report indicates gross incompetence on the part of US defense, China or Russia making a mockery of US military, alien life or this is all lies and this is an extensive conspiracy to hoax its citizens. None of those outcomes are small news, it could even be a mixture.
 

jetflag

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Personally I'm more of a fan of his brother, Bret. however i don't think there's any scientist refusing to investigate anything. The problem is that there's well... not all that much too investigate.

its basically a "we dunno" report, based on vague video footage, claims, eyewitness accounts etc.. what do you want scientists to do with that exactly?

based on whats presented so far, most scientist will shrug and, like i said, pick the more mundaine over the more extraordinairy.
 
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Manofearth

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Another public intellectual joins the conversation, Sam Harris. This one is even more surprising and astounding to me than Bret, as Sam has announced that he is not only convinced that ET visitation is real but that he's been contacted by US government to help aid with the disclosure process that is about to take place(!!!). This is mind blowing to me, of all the people, I would never expect him to say he believes all this and that he's part of the reveal. Even if I don't agree with him politically on many things he is known for his integrity and hyper rational approach, which he demonstrates often. I don't see any reason for him to lie.

Sam Harris (article on everything he's said)

Sam Harris quote
“I got contacted by somebody who gave me a heads up with respect to all of this happening, and he more or less told me, ‘Listen, this is … when this other shoe drops, you’re going to be in the position of having to acknowledge that all the experts are on the same page, and there’s just this blanket declaration that we’re in the presence of alien technology, and we don’t know what to make of it. So prepare your brain for that, and figure out what you’re going to do.’”

"I’ve received some private outreach, and perhaps you have, I know other people in our orbit have, people who are claiming that the government has known much more about UFOs than they have let on until now, and this conversation is actually about to become more prominent, and … whoever is left standing when the music stops, it’s not going to be a comfortable position to be in as a super rigorous scientific skeptic who’s been saying there’s no there there for the last 75 years."


If this is to be an alien hoax conspiracy, it is being shown to be the strangest and most absurd campaign in the history of world politics. If not and this is all about unruly balloons, then Sam has been completely had as a fool, as have all these government officials too. The response is horribly disproportionate to what could be a prosaic explanation. None of this makes sense.
 
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jetflag

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Sam has announced that he is not only convinced that ET visitation is real but that he's been contacted by US government to help aid with the disclosure process that is about to take place(!!!).
nowhere in that entire quote or conversation does Sam express positive believe that alien visitationare defacto taking place and that the government covers that up. selective quoting 101, in an edition of "medium"
 

Manofearth

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He's employing the same type of messaging as the government officials are doing, who all imply strongly it is alien, without actually going outrightly to say so. It's painful to watch Ratcliffe and others not be upfront about their opinions but understand the positions they hold do not allow for personal statement. After listening to Sam on a few podcasts now he is clearly operating in the same manner, positioning himself on the side an ET type of disclosure, without committing to a hard statement. In short, it appears he believes it to be the case.

His personal belief aside, I do not believe he is lying about his statement that the government approached him (and others) to facilitate a reveal. I have no explanation.
 
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